20 replies to this topic

[Axys Rageborn]

After playing the last Faction event I wanted to share my experience of what happened while playing through the event.

I want to start by saying that I have played QP for ages and I hardly dabble into faction warfare as I was unsure how I was to approach it due to RL problems ie my ISP = garbage but the payout was too enticing that I had to play. Now in the past events I only played scouting matches to get the rewards but I figured it would be easier to get the event done via Invasion this time.

From the games I played I found it to be rather fun when I knew the maps and the game modes but the newer modes where punishing to the point where I had one game on Boreal Vault that caused most of my team to quit due to not being able to take down a gate. this in turn made me stop playing and go back to QP for a bit. Don't get me wrong here it wasn't the Reds fault, they just knew how to play that map / mode and taught as a lesson about fighting in the shade.

This is where I realised that there is no middle ground when it comes to switching from QP to FW. As a newer player I was plagued by things I was yet to learn due to never having experienced them in a QP environment. This is a huge issue for getting newer players in and keeping them coming back when it comes to FW.

In QP its pretty easy to find your feet once you understand the basics but only a fraction of this translates over to FW. The hardest part was working out decks that would allow me to be competitive in an area that requires a different play style to what became comfortable. I know many will say its easy but when you think about someone who is not in my position in regards to game time this would be a huge challenge to overcome.

I have read in other posts that FW should be end game and while I agree with this there needs to be a visible pathway that teaches newer players how to get there as currently there isn't one. Its a massive problem which really hurts the game and the players. People playing QP don't know the fun that can be had in FW plus the rewards and FW players lack players to play with due to people not naturally working their way there.

There needs to be a middle ground where after understanding the basics of QP you then begin to work your way up to FW.

Personally I would love to see the drop deck used in QP whether it be a simple make a deck then pick the right mech for the map/ mode. Or a QP version of FW where you respawn like you would using the deck in FW. Also use the maps you dont see in QP - they are good and would bring new flavour to a pretty stale selection of maps (just edit them to suit the game modes ie remove gates ect)

Anyways I just wanted to share my thoughts as I really enjoy MWO and would like to see it improve as its all I play atm.

Cheers,

PS - I was dropping solo so I can't comment on a team side of things but as a "PuG" I feel something needs to be done for everyone. Also I did listen to orders and played as part of a team as much as possible just like I would in QP.

[LordNothing]

i was just happy to see fp not completely dead for a change.

also when there is an event the mode gets inundated by potatoes who normally aren't even good enough for qp. this is both a blessing and a curse. it makes matches a lot more varied due to there being more variety in skill levels, and pug teams start to outnumber the regulars. but it also means you have a very good chance of getting stuck with a bunch of spuds yourself. if you find yourself constantly coming up against a 12 man, you can simply wait 15 minutes to desync from that team (like go play scouting or a qp match). of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event, and those are somewhat rare.

i hear a lot of things from units, use a mic, get on team speak, etc. i think they take it a little too seriously. but if you really want to do well at fp you just need to be a team player. if you bring the typical selfish pug attitude you find in qp you are going to have a bad time. my stats are considerably better in fp than in qp so i must be doing something right.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2018 - 03:42 AM.

[El Bandito]

A FP tutorial with basic AI opponents would be decent for getting pugs acquainted with the mode. OP, it is much easier to learn about FP if you join one of the many recruiting FP units.

Mercstar is always looking for fresh talents.

[Axys Rageborn]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

i was just happy to see fp not completely dead for a change.

also when there is an event the mode gets inundated by potatoes who normally aren't even good enough for qp. this is both a blessing and a curse. it makes matches a lot more varied due to there being more variety in skill levels, and pug teams start to outnumber the regulars. but it also means you have a very good chance of getting stuck with a bunch of spuds yourself. if you find yourself constantly coming up against a 12 man, you can simply wait 15 minutes to desync from that team (like go play scouting or a qp match). of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event, and those are somewhat rare.

That's the thing, events shouldn't be the only reason people play FW but I feel as if there really isn't any reason too as you never get to experience what its like without going into it yourself. The game never forces you to play it and so when there is an event most PuGs dont have any idea what they are in for.

As for the 12 man its fun to play against and was like being on super hardcore mode which was entertaining for me but for others it was just to much. I did fight to the very end thou and tried to take someone down with me. It was more that people gave up so easily that I decided to play QP for a bit as their salt rubbed off on me and I needed to have a chance to shoot some stuff at least.

[Axys Rageborn]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

A FP tutorial with basic AI opponents would be decent for getting pugs acquainted with the mode. OP, it is much easier to learn about FP if you join one of the many recruiting FP units.

Mercstar is always looking for fresh talents.

I would but my Internet is poor so I only have a 2 day window to play and that is basically me waking up at 5 am Perth time and playing through to about 12 pm both Saturday and Sunday. But this varies depending on traffic in my area, so sometimes I only get a small window to play so I try to make the most of it.

It has crossed my mind but its just easier to play QP when I get the chance to.

Edit = Also I don't think AI is the answer as there is no way to replicate different play styles that come with FP so while they may learn basics a new player would still be far behind. I still think that the Drop deck needs to be used outside of FP to get people familiar with it.

Edited by Axys Rageborn, 13 November 2018 - 04:03 AM.

[LordNothing]

Axys Rageborn, on 13 November 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

That's the thing, events shouldn't be the only reason people play FW but I feel as if there really isn't any reason too as you never get to experience what its like without going into it yourself. The game never forces you to play it and so when there is an event most PuGs dont have any idea what they are in for.

As for the 12 man its fun to play against and was like being on super hardcore mode which was entertaining for me but for others it was just to much. I did fight to the very end thou and tried to take someone down with me. It was more that people gave up so easily that I decided to play QP for a bit as their salt rubbed off on me and I needed to have a chance to shoot some stuff at least.

i got into it the hard way, played with bad teams, had more fun pugging it though. taking out a unit with pugs is like the funnest thing you can do in this game. certainly more fun than clubbing seals.

i think the biggest flaw was not creating a place for everyone. it offers deeper game play which is what everyone wanted, but it demanded a level of dedication that most people didn't want to bother with. it was supposed to be the primary mode in the game. but because it was full of ultra compeditive units and there was the grossly underdeveloped qp to provide an easy mode, players weren't forced to adapt. so it was a forgone conclusion that it would bleed population like a hemophiliac gunshot victim. phase 3 failed to make it pug friendly, and bucketpocalypse couldn't even save it at that point. events kind of do, but they arent done frequently enough imho.

short of throwing in an mm (like the one paul was talking about) and discontinuing qp would be whats required to save it. but that may very well kill the whole damn game at this point. i think its too late to change it and stick with what works (more events).

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2018 - 04:20 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Axys Rageborn, on 13 November 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

After playing the last Faction event I wanted to share my experience of what happened while playing through the event.
...
This is where I realised that there is no middle ground when it comes to switching from QP to FW. As a newer player I was plagued by things I was yet to learn due to never having experienced them in a QP environment. This is a huge issue for getting newer players in and keeping them coming back when it comes to FW.

In QP its pretty easy to find your feet once you understand the basics but only a fraction of this translates over to FW. The hardest part was working out decks that would allow me to be competitive in an area that requires a different play style to what became comfortable. I know many will say its easy but when you think about someone who is not in my position in regards to game time this would be a huge challenge to overcome.

I have read in other posts that FW should be end game and while I agree with this there needs to be a visible pathway that teaches newer players how to get there as currently there isn't one. Its a massive problem which really hurts the game and the players. People playing QP don't know the fun that can be had in FW plus the rewards and FW players lack players to play with due to people not naturally working their way there.

...

PS - I was dropping solo so I can't comment on a team side of things but as a "PuG" I feel something needs to be done for everyone. Also I did listen to orders and played as part of a team as much as possible just like I would in QP.

Your OP raises a lot of issues that many if not most of the CW to FP community have been raising forever.
From the seemingly schizophrenic way the mode is presented (casual lorehole paradise with planets and campaigns and immersion! vs some sort of team focused pseudo comp level meta driven “end game” and sometime both) to the total lack of any sort of in game tutorial on how to play the mode, to the reality that the mode is quite limited in terms of maps and modes and how a players choice of mechs and builds for those is incredibly limited if the player wants to perform well and what that fact says about “balance”, etc.

Your PS hits home the most to me, with the whole “team” vs solo (pug) play and just who is the mode set up for and why isn’t PGI doing more for everyone? Perhaps they don’t want the mode played by everyone (teams only?) and yet they allow it to be played by everyone with only a warning sign to limit the uninitiated -while enticing them with rewards and events (see schizophrenic presentation comment above). It’s always been a recipie for dividing the community and ensuring that no one is happy with the mode for long.

So yeah, there is no middle ground. There is not even a pretense of a middle ground. FP’s problem is in fact that everyone can play it and PGI seems to want to entice everyone to play it, but at the same time the mode, at its core mechanic, is really far more focused on team based meta play than QP and failing to play it in that focused team based manner is going to result in a lot of more casual players having less than enjoyable results. This drives the casuals and new players from the mode, to the detriment of all. Leaving only the dedicated FP players to look for matches with ever increasing wait times as the population dwindles until the next big change or PGI provide an event too irresistible for the bads, pugs, and casuals to resist. Drawing them back in to get farmed by the regular players of the mode and providing the pugs and casuals with a fresh reminder of why they don’t play the mode, while the regulars re left wondering “why don’t you guys try forming a team BEFORE you drop into FP?”

And the cycle continues.

[Moldur]

FP is the middle ground. You crash and burn while learning it. Joining a big unit can help a lot. I highly recommend joining a unit if you are interesting in FP, even if you do not have the desire to always play FP. It gives you a smaller pool (even in the biggest units of 200+ members, that is fairly small pool of players to continuously play with). Plus there is usually some direction and organization.

I used to be in SWOL years ago, and at one point it was the largest unit. We hit the unit member cap for MWO, and our quality was all over the place, but that was fine. We ran two competent 12-mans with some fodder during peak hours. Outside of that, our drops had very mixed skill levels. Members were not pressured to do much, but there were always a few dozen players on to play with, and that was a nice perk to being in a unit. There were some very good players in the unit, and their presence as well as the attitude helped a lot of our members who were new. We would have some terrible matches with a lot of new players sometimes, but we could direct them toward being more effective for FP in their builds/mechs/strategy, and that helped get people up to speed in FP a lot faster than just repeatedly dropping as a rando where team make up is totally unpredictable. It takes longer and is harder to pick up on FP when you're starting from zero with each match.

In summary, OP. Ratcheting your way up in FP is going to be a lot slower as a PUG, and there's a certain amount of "glass ceiling" as you can only ever go so far without having long term teammates to coordinate with. FP is not the elitist hell hole a lot of solo players think it is. Most units are pretty inviting to new players.

[Kodyn]

The recent event was probably the first time I'd played FP/CW in...well years I'd say. I was just happy to see some population in there, as it was always a mode I enjoyed. I do wish they'd do more to integrate with the rest of the game and/or smooth over the transition from QP for newer players. More than a few times during the event I found myself and others explaining seemingly basic tenets of the mode to people who had no idea why there were gates, generators, etc.

Do I think they're going to make a lot of changes to FP at this juncture however? No, not really. But it would be cool to see it revived somewhat. I'd certainly take it over Solaris any day.

[lobsterhierarchy]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

i was just happy to see fp not completely dead for a change.

also when there is an event the mode gets inundated by potatoes who normally aren't even good enough for qp. this is both a blessing and a curse. it makes matches a lot more varied due to there being more variety in skill levels, and pug teams start to outnumber the regulars. but it also means you have a very good chance of getting stuck with a bunch of spuds yourself. if you find yourself constantly coming up against a 12 man, you can simply wait 15 minutes to desync from that team (like go play scouting or a qp match). of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event, and those are somewhat rare.

i hear a lot of things from units, use a mic, get on team speak, etc. i think they take it a little too seriously. but if you really want to do well at fp you just need to be a team player. if you bring the typical selfish pug attitude you find in qp you are going to have a bad time. my stats are considerably better in fp than in qp so i must be doing something right.

+1 on the mic for sure.

Sometimes you can wrangle pugs together to make the games much closer, even some disparate groups banding together on comma are much more effective. Had a few games last night against some fairly well matched teams. At least one other guy and I would coordinate the group on where to set up a firing line and where to push, and we got a few great wins out of it. Not any steamrolls but a clear victory for sure.

Someone above mentioned a tutorial with AIs which would have been super handy, as even experienced mech players might not understand at first whether to kill one gate or another, or where a brawl or poking war might happen. Even the mechs you bring could be total g’s in SQ, but terribad in faction.

[50 50]

Be helpful to have the Siege maps in quick play.

A single drop invasion mode with the 3/3/3/3 or group tonnage restrictions would be interesting to try out.
Could probably make them work ok in Assault, Incursion and Skirmish without too much hassle.
Or even just add 'Counter Attack' as a mode in quick play.

Point being, players become a bit more familiar with the maps and how to play on them.
An added benefit is increasing the options in Quick Play with what might be minimal effort.

For that matter.... why are the maps and mode not in the Private Lobby as well?

[GeminiWolf]

QP was never intended to be the basis for this game. It was put into place because Community Warfare was not ready and they needed an influx of players for cash reasons. If they truly want to make this game move forward as intended they need to remove QP and move all players into Faction Play. This removes the wait time issue which is why I don't play Faction Play. It also gives a sense of accomplishment when your Clan/House expands their territory. My Opinion, not yours.

[Asym]

What an interesting thread !

MWO created a game that was so vast and compelling, that they never could get it to work.... Conquest in a binary world: IS vs. Clan across the known galaxy..... Incompatible philosophies and weapons...

Why didn't it work? Because they never created a middle ground. This is a Arcade FPS and that is first person: "I" did not "we" did.... Teams were secondary to the actual FPS concept.... Doubt this? Then explain Solaris??? Why would a corporation so entrenched in "team play" shut down everything, nerf everything, degrade everything that involves agility, long ranges and precision shooting to create an Arcade FPS mode??? And then, a follow on game that is a FPS???

Because the game had no middle ground from day one.... The 66% in the middle were disenfranchised from day one and Faction Play required "large teams" and large teams create a binary solution set: of us versus them.... And that, is where all sorts of toxic behaviors spawn, grow, evolve and ultimately destroy the game..... It ceases to be fun when average teams get massacred every game.... I know, our entire team left because of it..... That's not a unique thing either because there are always "other games" to play.....

What you have now are new players and vets. The rest of us only watch, read the forum or sometimes play events.......but, almost to the person, never faction play events.....

[Zibmo]

LordNothing, on 13 November 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

i was just happy to see fp not completely dead for a change.

also when there is an event the mode gets inundated by potatoes who normally aren't even good enough for qp. this is both a blessing and a curse. it makes matches a lot more varied due to there being more variety in skill levels, and pug teams start to outnumber the regulars. but it also means you have a very good chance of getting stuck with a bunch of spuds yourself. if you find yourself constantly coming up against a 12 man, you can simply wait 15 minutes to desync from that team (like go play scouting or a qp match). of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event, and those are somewhat rare.

i hear a lot of things from units, use a mic, get on team speak, etc. i think they take it a little too seriously. but if you really want to do well at fp you just need to be a team player. if you bring the typical selfish pug attitude you find in qp you are going to have a bad time. my stats are considerably better in fp than in qp so i must be doing something right.

You have effectively illustrated the problem. Using terms like "potato", "spud" and so on is not conducive to anyone even wanting to attempt the game mode. How do I know? Your own statement that " of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event" tells the story. Only a lot of rewards will make "spuds" and "potatoes" (by the way, you probably were one yourself at one time) even attempt the mode, and most will not go back willingly.

I think that says a lot more about the playerbase than the mode, myself.

GeminiWolf, on 13 November 2018 - 11:19 PM, said:

QP was never intended to be the basis for this game. It was put into place because Community Warfare was not ready and they needed an influx of players for cash reasons. If they truly want to make this game move forward as intended they need to remove QP and move all players into Faction Play. This removes the wait time issue which is why I don't play Faction Play. It also gives a sense of accomplishment when your Clan/House expands their territory. My Opinion, not yours.

And if they had made the primary game mode FP, the game would not have lasted past the introduction of Clan mechs.

[LordNothing]

Zibmo, on 14 November 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

You have effectively illustrated the problem. Using terms like "potato", "spud" and so on is not conducive to anyone even wanting to attempt the game mode. How do I know? Your own statement that " of course now that the event is over its all moot and the game is going to be dead for several months until pgi does another exclusive fp event" tells the story. Only a lot of rewards will make "spuds" and "potatoes" (by the way, you probably were one yourself at one time) even attempt the mode, and most will not go back willingly.

I think that says a lot more about the playerbase than the mode, myself.

fp is prette divisive. but you cant grow a mode based on the top shelf players, or those willing to rearrange their lives around a slim period of peak time. there just arent enough of them. its created this us vs them attitude that does more damage than good. fp needs more variety of player skill levels and present them in a way that makes the mode worth playing. so long as the game lets top level units dogpile the seals its never going to grow. they should be playing 12v12 high stakes high reward matches against eachother instead through some kind of batchall system, but limited to a lance when playing against the bulk of the player base. that will get people playing the mode, more people means more will gain the experience needed to get gud which means more players will form units and participate in the 12v12 matches. the mode would grow.

events kind of do this by bringing in enough low to moderate skill players so you dont always come up against a top notch 12 man, simply by virtue of the bulk of the player base being the middle of the bell curve. that makes the game more fun for everyone. people show up they play and they have a good time, much better than can be had in qp. its far too late to do what i suggested above, there is just too much bad blood at this point. it shows in the very language people use to discuss the mode.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[SuperMCDad]

I always enjoy FP when I give it a go, however I wouldn't dream of going in there, unless there's an event going. Most of the matches I participated in were fairly evenly matched, with puggles on both sides. I imagine during normal times, this would be a lot more rare, and seal clubbing would reign.

I only have a couple of hours to play a night, and it's normally late in the NZ timezone, so not really conducive to being in a unit.

I'll continue to enjoy playing in FP events. Sometimes I have decent matches, sometimes abysmal, but if you are willing to take direction, and use comms, it's a lot of fun.

[LordNothing]

SuperMCDad, on 14 November 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

I always enjoy FP when I give it a go, however I wouldn't dream of going in there, unless there's an event going. Most of the matches I participated in were fairly evenly matched, with puggles on both sides. I imagine during normal times, this would be a lot more rare, and seal clubbing would reign.

I only have a couple of hours to play a night, and it's normally late in the NZ timezone, so not really conducive to being in a unit.

I'll continue to enjoy playing in FP events. Sometimes I have decent matches, sometimes abysmal, but if you are willing to take direction, and use comms, it's a lot of fun.

me being on alaska time makes sure i will always miss the peak window. i can get on the last couple matches of the evening before the oc deadzone hits but thats it.

[Axys Rageborn]

The replies highlight the division between QP and FP so well that it is sad that PGI hasn't recognised this problem. With the lack of any natural progression between the two modes it causes harm to not only the player groups but the game itself.

For a newer player wanting to play the mode it is suggested to join a unit in order to even consider being able to play the mode and while yes a unit would be the superior way to play most newer players just want to be able to jump in and have a go. But because they never learn anything about FP outside of the mode itself It causes a lot of difficulty for those players which in turn put most players off. Then to add salt to the wounds they are then told that they should just stick to QP if they want to play solo which in turn causes less people to play in FP.

The other thing is that FP takes away all the freedom that QP offers which again hurts the player base as most people after experiencing total freedom to play, don't like being pigeonholed into a certain style of play and while yes this would produce better results, it becomes boring quite quickly due to the self imposed restrictions placed in order to achieve those results.

I do believe that bridging the gap between the two modes would be beneficial to both sides as those in QP would learn new skills and it would add depth to their game-play, while FP get players working their way into it naturally which increases population and gives units a chance to recruit those newer players (in-game) without having to go train them with the basics.

Overall FP is a better version of the game but takes away many of the freedoms provided by QP which not only hurts itself but hurts the overall game experience and that is all caused by a lack of natural progression (middle ground).

[Anjian]

There is no reason why the FP game modes themselves can be used as QP. There are many games out there whose main and casual game mode consists of multiple respawns and capturing objectives.

There must be changes however.

Each team is set by the matchmaker using overall player performance statistics as the qualification, and will be faction neutral. That means mixes of Clan and IS mechs, regardless of what faction you signed up with.

Premades are only allowed up to a lance or four persons. Premade lances allow for mix techs.

Individual drop decks can also be mix tech, so long they meet the weight limit.

Siege mode is only open for players from Tier 3 and above.

For players with less than four mechs to fill a drop deck, there is going to be some Rent for free Champion mechs, that are preset and preconfigured for faction play. You can choose to add them on your hanger freely, but they can't be modified.

Maps are going to be simply random. You don't know if you are going to get a Lurmmap or a brawler map, so you need to build multipurpose multirole decks.

FP only opens up to players with at least Tier 3 and above, and with a full faction qualified drop deck within weight limits.

Edited by Anjian, 15 November 2018 - 02:20 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Anjian, on 15 November 2018 - 02:11 AM, said:

Each team is set by the matchmaker using overall player performance statistics as the qualification, and will be faction neutral. That means mixes of Clan and IS mechs, regardless of what faction you signed up with.

Premades are only allowed up to a lance or four persons. Premade lances allow for mix techs.

I don't like this idea. The reward for getting better is then to be saddled with worse and worse teammates to drag you down to give the other team a fair shot. No thank you. If I want to play with horrible teammates I'll just play quick play, thank you. The entire point of FP is that you can come up with coordinated 12 man strategies to run on maps, and that's where it's the most fun.

Quote

Maps are going to be simply random. You don't know if you are going to get a Lurmmap or a brawler map, so you need to build multipurpose multirole decks.

Also a terrible idea. Again, the whole attraction of FP is that you can build an entire deck to suit a map, so you don't have to get stuck with a useless specialized map. This would kill ultra-focused mech builds like the ERLL Battlemaster, because it has no place in a drop deck on a map like Caustic Valley.

I have no desire to see the cancer of random teams / random mechs / random maps that is quick play further infest faction play. If you want all randomness, feel free to play QP. If you want to actually have to think about what mechs would best suit the given map/mode, and build a competent drop deck to accomplish that alongside your teammates, then play FP.