Jump to content

Heat Scaling 2.0


7 replies to this topic

#1 Tibbnak

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 379 posts

Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:38 AM

Currently, the ghost heat system we have now is somewhat working, but also far too coarse. It punishes a large majority of build ideas and promotes a select few, most of which are based around similar velocity and/or cooldown and maximizing either DPS or repeated alpha+twist or alpha+duck.

The Energy Draw system was a step forward, but also had its own hamfisted issues.

One possible alternative I wish to suggest is based on a mechanic that is already in the game: Flamers.

Flamers have a scaling heat multiplier based on how heavily they are used, with a logarithmic climb. This also takes into account how many flamers you are using.

My suggestion is to remove ghost heat and apply this existing mechanical system in a unified manner, to what previously were the ghost heat groups instead. You could even straight remove the jamming mechanic from UAC/RAC and apply the system to them as well.

The idea is that each weapon ghost heat grouping, Say Gauss/ppc, pulse lasers, medium/large lasers, etc, currently have their own ghost heat group.

If instead, they had a climbing heat multiplier based on how heavily you were using them without break, this would have a similar function to ghost heat that we have right now but would allow for far more granularity in builds.

It would also allow builds with more weapon diversity to compete with alpha builds, because having a small variety of different weapon groups would mean that you have more options to work with while other groups are on cool-down.

One downside to this is that some fringe one shot wonder joke builds would also be possible. Example: you could fire a 6x erppc stalker with this system, or quad UAC/20, or whatever the heck else memes you want to pull off. However, you'd have a lot of downtime between shots, and you wouldn't be able to fit much else significant in the load-out, so this sort of build would only be valuable on the field if supported and backed up by other players. Ultimately this may not be a thing that needs to be nerfed.

Another downside is that the weapon grouping bars will become far more significant to pay attention to, but currently they are locked away in the bottom right in a near-useless location. Some sort of semi-opaque bars or other indicators would be nice to have somewhat in relation to but not obscuring the center of the screen.

Finally, one neat thing that could be done with this to tie it directly into game mechanics and tactics, is to cause the related dynamic geometry on the mech to visually glow with heat and smoke based on how high its heat scaling bar was.
IE: if your UAC group was firing straight, eventually your uac on your mech would start heating up and glowing and smoking.

This wouldn't be very useful at range, but for people closing for brawl or within short range, this could be a pretty effective tactical indicator of how your opponent is doing and could allow for split section decisions.

Finally, this system would break the current cool shot meta in half over its steely knees. No amount of cool shots you throw at your dying gun barrels will fix them shooting some really hot bois.

Edited by Tibbnak, 12 December 2018 - 09:44 AM.


#2 admiralbenbow123

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 442 posts
  • LocationMoscow

Posted 12 December 2018 - 11:56 AM

I actually like this idea a lot. It makes more sense than the current ghost heat system and makes non-alpha strike builds more "meta".

#3 Cichol Balor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God
  • The God
  • 354 posts

Posted 12 December 2018 - 01:10 PM

This turns the game 100% into alpha poking as you would be punished with just about any reliable brawling build. it doesn't matter how long you have to wait on cool down when many of they alpha builds ghost heat stops were more than enough to core or even 1hit an atlas. so now you get a free alpha and then are just operating with ghost heat normally so stay duct down or swap to your secondary until you get another free alpha.

The system we have right now already promotes mixing your weapons if you want high alpha and only slightly promotes weapons with similar range and cooldown for brawling. U/ACs just getting hotter and hotter rather than jamming would be a bad idea. you would run into a similar problem we had with rockets before the min range was added. just spam that button until your urby takes out an assault in a suicide trade.

if you really wanted to promote have a larger variety in weapons they need to add in armor variants like BRA where you are more resistant to certain kinds of attracts but not others. for example with BRA you would not lose defense against energy weapons but you would take reduced damage from missiles and AC. so long as there was a visual way to tell if a mech was equipped. (say rounds bouncing or lasers reflecting) then it would also promote more diverse team play as you need to communicate energy on A and AC on B rather than all on A.

Ultimately this change would increase TTK punish mono type builds w/o teamwork. and indirectly punish heavy high alpha weapon builds by taking up internals but giving no added weight reduction


even with this you would still need some sort of ghost heat simply because this isn't the table top and we can hit exactly what we are aiming for. unless you want every weapon to have a shot gun like potential spread there is not much you can do.

Edited by Cichol Balor, 12 December 2018 - 01:23 PM.


#4 Mister Bob Dobalina

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 674 posts

Posted 13 December 2018 - 05:51 AM

Having not played since the last patch and reading your feedbacks and opinions I am getting kinda scared to take out my trusted builds I have lived with for hundreds of matches keeping the same used-to build. In one case I am scratching the 1k mark of unchanged HBR build just shy of 25 matches. I get the feeling that after the rescale and the skill tree this change will ultimately brake beloved builds I have grown so accustomed to. Can anyone confirm this? Or is it certain types of builds or weapon combinations that get immensly more troublesome than they have already been? Here's a few examples of builds I have used and that I worry will have to be played completely different or not anymore:
  • HBR-A, 1x UAC20 (RT), 1x ERLL (H), 6x ERSL (3x LT, 2x LA, RA)
  • KGC-0000, XL360, 2x AC10 (LA, RA), 4x LRM5 (LT), 4x ML (RT), AMS
  • MDD-Prime, 6x LRM5A (RT, LT), 4x HML (RA, LA)
  • WHM-6R(S), L300, 2x LBX10 (RT,LT), 4x MPL (RT,LT), AMS
  • QKD-4G, L300, 2x MRM10 (CT, LT), HPPC (RT), 3x ML (LA, RA, RT), AMS
Well, it's just some of them. But is this affecting builds like those to a breaking point or is the new system a bit less game changing than the whole fuzz might let one suspect?

#5 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,459 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 18 December 2018 - 07:10 AM

The major change needed for GH or ED to shine is a Heat-over-Time effect rather than instant heat spikes.
If the heat is gradually applied, even hughe 6PPC boats could work, but would keep generating heat for a long time and basically either not cooling, or keeping melting slowly...

Any and all heat revisiting needs to give users a smooth experience and not being binary/spiky.
No matter if GH, ED or other over time increasing heat.

As you said, the gap of your idea is the Alpha strike monsters would not care.
Considering HoT that increase over time depending how much/often you fire, the system would feel more natural.

FYI: I've posted this already before here:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6152931

#6 Cichol Balor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God
  • The God
  • 354 posts

Posted 18 December 2018 - 10:51 AM

View PostReno Blade, on 18 December 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

The major change needed for GH or ED to shine is a Heat-over-Time effect rather than instant heat spikes.
If the heat is gradually applied, even hughe 6PPC boats could work, but would keep generating heat for a long time and basically either not cooling, or keeping melting slowly...

Any and all heat revisiting needs to give users a smooth experience and not being binary/spiky.
No matter if GH, ED or other over time increasing heat.

As you said, the gap of your idea is the Alpha strike monsters would not care.
Considering HoT that increase over time depending how much/often you fire, the system would feel more natural.

FYI: I've posted this already before here:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6152931



this would just turn the game into high alpha hell where the best option is just to kill the enemy as fast as you can before heat becomes an issue. not to mention if you personally want to play mechs with slow cool but high heat threshold that is a play style already catered to in the game. builds with a large amount of single heat sinks have an enormous heat cap. This is because not only do they have 2x the heat capacity of the doubles but you can fit more per mech. the downside is they have a much lower dissipation rate. so.... exactly what you are asking for but much more balanced.


an example of this would be any of the laser heavy super novas. with double heat sinks your able to rapidly fire 1/2 your lasers one right after the other pretty regularly however you simply can't alpha strike. as half your guns will take you over 50% heat and firing all would generate ghost heat. however if you run single heat sinks you can get ~2 alphas off even with the ghost heat if timed properly before needing to fall back and cool.

Edited by Cichol Balor, 18 December 2018 - 10:57 AM.


#7 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,459 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 18 December 2018 - 02:27 PM

View PostCichol Balor, on 18 December 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:



this would just turn the game into high alpha hell where the best option is just to kill the enemy as fast as you can before heat becomes an issue. not to mention if you personally want to play mechs with slow cool but high heat threshold that is a play style already catered to in the game. builds with a large amount of single heat sinks have an enormous heat cap. This is because not only do they have 2x the heat capacity of the doubles but you can fit more per mech. the downside is they have a much lower dissipation rate. so.... exactly what you are asking for but much more balanced.


an example of this would be any of the laser heavy super novas. with double heat sinks your able to rapidly fire 1/2 your lasers one right after the other pretty regularly however you simply can't alpha strike. as half your guns will take you over 50% heat and firing all would generate ghost heat. however if you run single heat sinks you can get ~2 alphas off even with the ghost heat if timed properly before needing to fall back and cool.

Not sure if you are refering to the numbers in my quoted post, or the HoT in general.
I think a 5 second HoT that stacks would be better than the current instant heat.
But it might require a lower cap/dis in general to work ... and we just got a big bump in the latest patch about heatsinks, so its also very unlikely...

#8 Cichol Balor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God
  • The God
  • 354 posts

Posted 19 December 2018 - 04:30 AM

even if it built heat up over 5 seconds tat is plenty of time to alpha and back to cover and cool. as long as pin point exists tis sort of thing can't





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users