21 replies to this topic

[Cichol Balor]

This really should be part of the scoring system. Just about any player who has played long ehough to get grips on the game knows how much spreading damage across their mech plays apart in staying alive. And any pilot worth anything knows just how much spreading damage across the team plays in a victory. In truth I would say getting a high damage recived number shows you were probably more usefull than a high damage number at the end of a mach.

it may even have the added bonus of encouraging those LRM assaults to move out from the back

[Blacksheep One]

Eh... sounds like it favors heavies and assaults more. If my light turns the corner and runs into the assault lance of the enemy, I'm going to take *plenty* of damage... but I have about as much armor as an assault's arm. Besides, the DCs get plenty of damage when the enemy team finds them without otherwise helping much.

Then, I'm sure, there'll be people "helping" by shooting teammates...

[Cichol Balor]

Blacksheep One, on 17 December 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Eh... sounds like it favors heavies and assaults more. If my light turns the corner and runs into the assault lance of the enemy, I'm going to take *plenty* of damage... but I have about as much armor as an assault's arm.

an assault can also do far more damage than the majority of lights and that is not the only scoring system that is more beneficial for one class of 'mech over another so what exactly is your point?

Blacksheep One, on 17 December 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Besides, the DCs get plenty of damage when the enemy team finds them without otherwise helping much.

just like you get a bunch of damage from killing a dc despite that not helping at all. At least the DC has the chance of distracting a light at the start more interested in DC hunt than helping.

Blacksheep One, on 17 December 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Then, I'm sure, there'll be people "helping" by shooting teammates...

to bad the game can't tell the difference between team damage and enemy damage.

[Ch_R0me]

Cichol Balor, on 17 December 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

to bad the game can't tell the difference between team damage and enemy damage.

Ain't that already counting as Team Damage and TKs?
If so then I don't see the problem to filter out team damage out of this point.

[Cichol Balor]

ManganMan, on 18 December 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

Ain't that already counting as Team Damage and TKs?
If so then I don't see the problem to filter out team damage out of this point.

Lol yes there was intentional sarcasm in that post

[Blacksheep One]

You obviously missed that I was being a bit sarcastic there, as well... as in "we'll be hearing *this* excuse from someone for team damage."

Regardless, I think the base assumption you make here ("If you took more damage, you did more to help the team") is faulty as a premise. If you're out of position - regardless of tonnage - and you get focused fire from multiple other mechs, you're taking a lot of damage without really "helping the team." If you're getting Gauss-sniped (or PPC or whatnot) while trying to reposition and take a bunch of damage, you're not taking damage "to help the team." You're just in the open and getting smacked for it (and for that matter, possibly hurting the team by telling the other side where to look for the rest of them.)

Yes, on the plus side - maybe if it checked to see if you're in proximity to the rest of a lance while taking damage? - it could encourage armor sharing and rotating out, But just as a stat on its own to reward, I'm not sold. *shrug* Refine it a bit and find ways to encourage the gameplay you actually want to encourage, though. I *think* I see what you want to get people to want to do and don't disagree with it.

[Cichol Balor]

you mean just like doing a high amount of damage doesn't mean you were helping the team... at least if you are getting shot no matter the situation that heat isn't being used on the rest of your team. as to your examples they aren't even great counters to this.


you receive relatively little damage if you are caught out of position as you will generally be focused down and killed unable to spread the damage and defend your softer parts effectively. taking suppressing fire when repositioning again means the other members of your team can move more freely.

this is no more or less refined than the current system of scoring off of damage. there is no way you received 200 damage and were not contributing where as a lrm boat can easily get 700+ damage and be ultimately unimportant in the match simply by taking pot shots at random locks. and doing no more than 8 damage to an individual component on the enemy team.

having it consider only when you are near to friendlies is not only a poor way to judge this but makes it harder for a player post match to reflect and compare to their other matches in relation. It's not just about tossing an extra 2k Cbills per match at an assault but a way similar to damage dealt to track your own personnel growth and contribution. a piranha that spent the entire game harassing will often have all or most of its armor striped by the end of the game if they were doing their job and may never once be near their own team.


tldr. there are far more times when taking damage is helpful and should be promoted than there are times that it is not.

[Blacksheep One]

Cichol Balor, on 18 December 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

you receive relatively little damage if you are caught out of position as you will generally be focused down and killed unable to spread the damage and defend your softer parts effectively. taking suppressing fire when repositioning again means the other members of your team can move more freely.

this is no more or less refined than the current system of scoring off of damage. there is no way you received 200 damage and were not contributing where as a lrm boat can easily get 700+ damage and be ultimately unimportant in the match simply by taking pot shots at random locks.

You're contradicting yourself, or you have a very odd definition of how this is "helping" the team.

If I'm out of position and run into the enemy, getting components shot off and finally cored and killed, that doesn't mean my team is "helped." My team is now down one, likely not in position to take care of anything I may have done, and doesn't have much information on what hit me. I've taken plenty of damage (since I'm probably dead) likely all across my 'mech (since I'd be moving and trying to protect myself, get away and/or retaliate) to little to no benefit for my team. Maybe I've gotten some damage in, but so has that LRM boat "taking pot shots at random contacts" you're so eager to disparage... and they're still alive to keep doing it.

As far as heat not being used on the rest of the team? How long do you think it takes to cool down if a 'mech that wanders into the other team is shot up?

And, again. AFK/Disconnects can do this. We just had one of the 'mech events (I think) award components destroyed. So find AFK mech, start shooting arms and legs and save the torso for last for that. Plenty of damage, no benefit for the team (especially if they're found at the end of the match, where they haven't even been a "distraction.")

The more I read your replies, the more I'm getting an anti-sniper/anti-missile boat vibe behind it, since it doesn't sound (through what I'm reading, which I fully admit can be interpreting incorrectly) like you think they help or "participate." They're doing their jobs, as well. You also would be punishing those who just happen to *not* be getting hit as often due to positioning, movement, ECM and/or tactics, regardless of them helping via damage, scouting/UAVs and the like... just because they didn't happen to take as much damage.

Yes, I think we need to reward other metrics and encourage more varied gameplay (and encourage *working with your team,*) but the more I read this, the more I think we'll just have to disagree on this being a good metric to reward.(Though I hope the argument helps refine it and make it something better - that's the point, after all, right?)

Edited by Blacksheep One, 18 December 2018 - 01:11 PM.

[Cichol Balor]

Blacksheep One, on 18 December 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

You're contradicting yourself, or you have a very odd definition of how this is "helping" the team.

If I'm out of position and run into the enemy, getting components shot off and finally cored and killed, that doesn't mean my team is "helped." My team is now down one, likely not in position to take care of anything I may have done, and doesn't have much information on what hit me. I've taken plenty of damage (since I'm probably dead) likely all across my 'mech (since I'd be moving and trying to protect myself, get away and/or retaliate) to little to no benefit for my team. Maybe I've gotten some damage in, but so has that LRM boat "taking pot shots at random contacts" you're so eager to disparage... and they're still alive to keep doing it.

but you are not taking much damage. you will get CT much faster than the guy with proper positioning. hell if you are just charging into the enemy you can't even protect your CT no mater how much you twist your torso.

yes that LRM boat will still be alive and still be just as useful as the guy that got himself killed charging in.

Blacksheep One, on 18 December 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

As far as heat not being used on the rest of the team? How long do you think it takes to cool down if a 'mech that wanders into the other team is shot up?

so are you tanking a bunch of damage or are you dying right quick?

in all seriousness the enemy team tends to be really hot when this happens and if you're paying attention you can capitalize on it. Generally they see it as the easy kill it is and get hyper aggressive trying to score the KB or KMDD getting far hotter than they normally would focusing down an enemy mech in a proper skirmish/brawl. hell many will even risk shut down.

Blacksheep One, on 18 December 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

And, again. AFK/Disconnects can do this. We just had one of the 'mech events (I think) award components destroyed. So find AFK mech, start shooting arms and legs and save the torso for last for that. Plenty of damage, no benefit for the team (especially if they're found at the end of the match, where they haven't even been a "distraction.")

again to your again any mech piddling off to ***** on an afk is not in the fight while they are doing it not to mention the existing scoring mechanics where you need to be doing a combination of things to get a respectable score. its why one guy can do 1k damage and have a lower score than the guy who did 450. Its not like I'm subjecting this be scored differently on some 1/1 scan of damage received to score.

Blacksheep One, on 18 December 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

The more I read your replies, the more I'm getting an anti-sniper/anti-missile boat vibe behind it, since it doesn't sound (through what I'm reading, which I fully admit can be interpreting incorrectly) like you think they help or "participate." They're doing their jobs, as well. You also would be punishing those who just happen to *not* be getting hit as often due to positioning, movement, ECM and/or tactics, regardless of them helping via damage, scouting/UAVs and the like... just because they didn't happen to take as much damage.

how exactly I have never brought up snipers nor have I suggested removing or reducing the score received from anything they are currently doing. if anything this benefits most snipers who are doing their job well considering they tend to have low damage numbers but still share their armor with the team. only thing I have bashed on are LRM boats that sit 700-900m behind the main line helping no one and just farming damage

Edited by Cichol Balor, 19 December 2018 - 05:11 AM.

[SilentFenris]

No need to reward additional c-bills for getting your mech horribly shot-up. Taking large amounts of damage just to earn c-bills will encourage bad gameplay. Earn your extra c-bills with "Protected" awards and Lance-in-Formation.

Rewards 2.0 added the "Protected Proximity" award for situations wear your mech exchanges fire with the enemy. Also includes Protected Light and Protected Medium. https://mwomercs.com...-get-xp-and-cb/

Edited by SilentFenris, 19 December 2018 - 07:07 AM.

[Cichol Balor]

yeah... all that did was further encourage poking nothing more. while in most games it would seem silly to reward such behavior in MWO it is better for both yourself and your team if you are able to take more damage. So yes it should be rewarded. as pointed out above there are no real ways to farm with this tactic simply because going out to get shot tends to wind up with you getting killed before you can take appreciable damage

[FatherSarge]

I've suggested this before as well. To counter it being bias towards the heavier mechs I altered it so instead of raw damage taken it was more of less based on the percentage of damage taken to that mech, for simplicity's sake 0.25-1pt for every % taken, maybe modified at each quarter with a small bonus.

I think it would greatly encourage heavies and assaults (assaults especially) to play a tankier role.

[The6thMessenger]

So how does it distinguish poor choices?

[Cichol Balor]

The6thMessenger, on 26 December 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

So how does it distinguish poor choices?

... how does damage dealt? or squad in formation? or tag damage? simply by on average you will have better luck getting them if you are playing well.

run into the enemy team? gunna get cored out fast. stand around out in the open? gunna get cored out. some how manage to get ground down part by part using up 100% of your hp while you were picking your nose? that's going to be a lot of heat ammo and time the enemy wasn't using on your team

FatherSarge, on 26 December 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I've suggested this before as well. To counter it being bias towards the heavier mechs I altered it so instead of raw damage taken it was more of less based on the percentage of damage taken to that mech, for simplicity's sake 0.25-1pt for every % taken, maybe modified at each quarter with a small bonus.

I think it would greatly encourage heavies and assaults (assaults especially) to play a tankier role.

I suppose but as stated before just about every scoring system in the game is better for one type than the other.

Edited by Cichol Balor, 27 December 2018 - 01:08 AM.

[MechTech Dragoon]

Doitttttt

[The6thMessenger]

Cichol Balor, on 27 December 2018 - 01:05 AM, said:

... how does damage dealt? or squad in formation? or tag damage? simply by on average you will have better luck getting them if you are playing well.

run into the enemy team? gunna get cored out fast. stand around out in the open? gunna get cored out. some how manage to get ground down part by part using up 100% of your hp while you were picking your nose? that's going to be a lot of heat ammo and time the enemy wasn't using on your team

Well, that's still rewarding poor choices. And if they know how to spread damage, they don't have to be cored while out in the open, or charging into the enemy team -- which is usually done by spearheaders and brawlers. Not to mention that LRMs, as well as poor players with poor aiming, would inevitably spread so just saying "gonna get cored" isn't a good argument.

[Cichol Balor]

The6thMessenger, on 10 January 2019 - 04:33 PM, said:

Well, that's still rewarding poor choices. And if they know how to spread damage, they don't have to be cored while out in the open, or charging into the enemy team -- which is usually done by spearheaders and brawlers. Not to mention that LRMs, as well as poor players with poor aiming, would inevitably spread so just saying "gonna get cored" isn't a good argument.

you can twist your torso all you like any half decent team is coring you out via your crotch.

and you didn't answer my question

[The6thMessenger]

Cichol Balor, on 10 January 2019 - 07:52 PM, said:

and you didn't answer my question

Because that's just deflection from the short-coming of your idea, and doesn't merit any answer.

[Cichol Balor]

it's not a deflection it shows that even with your examples it would be no different than any of the already existing scoring systems in the game. minorly exploitable but overall rewarding to good gameplay

[The6thMessenger]

Cichol Balor, on 11 January 2019 - 06:04 AM, said:

it's not a deflection it shows that even with your examples it would be no different than any of the already existing scoring systems in the game. minorly exploitable but overall rewarding to good gameplay

No, it is quite a deflection.

Those other scores work at different contexts, and shouldn't be treated similarly. Whether they have their own short coming or not, is irrelevant to the shortcoming of your idea impacts the game.

I mean how could you exploit NARC/TAG damage in the first place? I mean sure you could possibly give away your position with TAG, or senselessly waste your ammo with NARC, but compare that to the detriment of someone yoloing to farm match score.

Squad-In-Formation is generally something that happens when people stay together, that share armor. It's a behavior the team should generally foster, regardless of whether they idiotically charge to the enemy (it's called pushing) or when they are relatively passive, and trade.

And Damage Dealt, even those with LRMs, still takes a bit of skill to rack up, and when they do rack up it's still a major contribution to the team, compare that to someone simply idiotically charging to the enemy and wiggling around. You have more damage to give, than damage to take -- so don't put Damage- Dealt at the same pedestal as Damage-Taken.

Do you really want Damage-Taken be taken seriously? Add a filter to bad choices, like if you're taking damage while the rest of your squad within proximity is also engaging, because that is technically sharing armor, and it also takes account of spearheading pushes.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 January 2019 - 04:48 AM.