66 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

so some posts in gd are showing the queue counters in fp. it shows a population disparity ranging from 20-50 to 1. this is absurd and totally explains horrible wait times in fp. players simply dogpile to whatever side is winning at the time. its not a unit problem, its not a pug problem, its a design problem. a failure to account for human behavior. fix the design and solve the problem. you might see fp roar back to life if you do it.

we have already tried the stick. severe penalties for switching sides, recruitment, etc. while these measures fo keep people in place, it doesn't solve dogpile scenarios. we tried carrots to in the form of merc bonuses, but those failed for the same reason. no point making people stay put when there is a disparity. you actually need players to move around, because thats how you solve disparities. you just want them moving to the underdog side. if you reward moving to the loosing side and penalize dogpiling you might have a chance at balancing populations and getting more frequent drops.

an alternative solution. and a more fun one in my opinion. is dynamic civil wars. forcing the player base to a side they dont want to play is not really that fun. so instead of trying to vector them where you want, you let them go where they want and then give them battles that make the best use of the available player disparity. if you have 5 teams on the is side and 3 teams on the clan side, this is enough players to spawn four, 3 clan vs is games, and an is vs is civil war. under current rules you can only get 3 games out of that and you have 2 whole teams sitting in queue with nobody to fight. this negatively impacts wait times and the overall player experience.

[K O Z A K]

the fact that we can actually see the que now is gonna go a great deal towards fixing this once people figure it out

"dogpile" and watch the spinning wheel, or change sides and play the game (sorry loyalists, I know this is kicking you while you're already down, but it's true)

[LordNothing]

Hazeclaw, on 13 December 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

the fact that we can actually see the que now is gonna go a great deal towards fixing this once people figure it out

"dogpile" and watch the spinning wheel, or change sides and play the game (sorry loyalists, I know this is kicking you while you're already down, but it's true)

it might help to a degree. i usually go to the underdog side to improve my drop rate but i think im more of an exception than the rule. human nature makes people want to be on the side thats winning.

forcing civil wars actually helps loyalists since you dont have to change sides to get games. if you end up fighting your own faction's players, call it a trial of grievance, or a coup, things that happen in lore all the time.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2018 - 07:36 PM.

[Appogee]

Why on earth would people be flocking to the side where they are not going to get a match?

I always go to the least populated side. (Is this called "catpiing™"?)

[Yondu Udonta]

Please continue dogpiling, I love to have instadrops to farm all of them.

[Monkey Lover]

Appogee, on 13 December 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Why on earth would people be flocking to the side where they are not going to get a match?

I always go to the least populated side. (Is this called "catpiing™"?)

After you get smashed by the same team over and over people jump ship or stop playing.

You end up with the CW nascar, top teams move to find fastest matches. Pugs and casual teams jump to get balanced matches.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Hazeclaw, on 13 December 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

the fact that we can actually see the que now is gonna go a great deal towards fixing this once people figure it out

"dogpile" and watch the spinning wheel, or change sides and play the game (sorry loyalists, I know this is kicking you while you're already down, but it's true)

Yeah loyalists will just divert to quick play or not play at all which hurt the FP population screwing everyone over.

[Daurock]

Monkey Lover, on 14 December 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

After you get smashed by the same team over and over people jump ship or stop playing.

You end up with the CW nascar, top teams move to find fastest matches. Pugs and casual teams jump to get balanced matches.

This type of behavior does lead to an honest question though.

Assuming a top team has no one around that actually desires to fight them - Is it better to give the top team a ghost drop, or is it better that they get put in a match with those that have no desire to see that top team? Which is better for the long term health of the mode?

I'm honestly not sure which it is at this point. The mode needs new players desperately, (AND needs them to stay around for more than 1 or two lopsided matches) but without those top teams to form the backbone, the whole thing flops over anyway.

Edited by Daurock, 14 December 2018 - 07:45 AM.

[Fae Puka]

Having just waited for ages to get a drop on IS side, Clan players went for a steam roll, camped the IS drop zone and killed the match off within 12 minutes - perfect example of p'poor play style. However, considering the queue was at 11 v 158 at the time of drop; don't moan about not getting any real drops when you drive opposition away.

[Monkey Lover]

Daurock, on 14 December 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

This type of behavior does lead to an honest question though.
Assuming a top team has no one around that actually desires to fight them - Is it better to give the top team a ghost drop, or is it better that they get put in a match with those that have no desire to see that top team? Which is better for the long term health of the mode?

I'm honestly not sure which it is at this point. The mode needs new players desperately, (AND needs them to stay around for more than 1 or two lopsided matches) but without those top teams to form the backbone, the whole thing flops over anyway.

If its the only two options then the mode is dead. The only thing i can see is to balance the low side.

12 pugs fighting a top rated team, maybe give them a extra mech,full time radar, buff their turrets or something. The pugs dont have to even win 50% of the time they just have to be "able" to win.

If after some point if more people start to join you wouldn't need these extreme buffs because the planned match maker should start working with a real population.

[LordNothing]

Daurock, on 14 December 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

This type of behavior does lead to an honest question though.

Assuming a top team has no one around that actually desires to fight them - Is it better to give the top team a ghost drop, or is it better that they get put in a match with those that have no desire to see that top team? Which is better for the long term health of the mode?

I'm honestly not sure which it is at this point. The mode needs new players desperately, (AND needs them to stay around for more than 1 or two lopsided matches) but without those top teams to form the backbone, the whole thing flops over anyway.

you need both types of players to grow the mode, something for everyone. no matter what causes dogpiles (and my theory for what causes them is just a theory, and there are other things that can cause them, say a mech pack release or an event), they do happen and should be mitigated.

never should there be a situation where you have multiple 12 mans on one side waiting for a 12 man on the other side. id rather launch a bunch of civil wars in that situation. then in the rare situation where you have one 12 man and there is no choice but to drop them against pugs, i think a good compromise is that maybe they have to wait a little longer as a 12 man than they would if they broke up into a pair of 6 mans. the idea is to wait and see if a 12 man or at least a small group forms up and lessen the frequency of seal stomps. if they dont like their drop rate they have the option to split. i dont mind 12 mans getting the priority if they drop against other 12s (or even a smaller team).

Edited by LordNothing, 14 December 2018 - 07:00 PM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Give the losing side a bonus performance modifier (or at least a bonus reward modifier), based on the Faction Play's War Log percentage.

And as long as there's a ten match probation before that bonus kicks in, I have absolutely no idea why PGI doesn't do that.

LordNothing, on 14 December 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

a situation where you have multiple 12 mans on one side waiting for a 12 man on the other side. id rather launch a bunch of civil wars in that situation.

That's a really good idea.

Edited by Humble Dexter, 14 December 2018 - 07:10 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Cannot be dogpiling if the temporary large numbers on one side is an actual bug, 12*12=144, and Humble, ya the one that started the bug thread in the patch feedback, and others have observed it without realizing what was really going on.

I mean, 144+ players or 12 full teams + on one side are there on one side for 3 seconds then that number drops back down to low numbers?

And yes, if the numbers were true there, heck yeap on Civil war matchup, not discounting that.

[LordNothing]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 December 2018 - 09:02 PM, said:

Cannot be dogpiling if the temporary large numbers on one side is an actual bug, 12*12=144, and Humble, ya the one that started the bug thread in the patch feedback, and others have observed it without realizing what was really going on.

I mean, 144+ players or 12 full teams + on one side are there on one side for 3 seconds then that number drops back down to low numbers?

And yes, if the numbers were true there, heck yeap on Civil war matchup, not discounting that.

even if that is a bug (and its not hard to believe that pgi is that bad at math), i dont see any harm in anti-dogpile measures. sooner or later an event (tukkayid) or mechpack (kodiak) will come along and really unbalance the sides. it would still maximize 12v12 and minimize 12 v pug. more importantly players can play what they want and if a dogpile does happen people still get games. no more having to jump around based on where the players are.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 December 2018 - 09:45 AM.

[Davegt27]

all I can say is if you complain you will only make things worse

there are few people that are keeping FP alive

so what's happening is a group is formed to play FP
well if there is no one on the other side to play against sometimes players will break off
and go to there alt account and start an opposing group and draw players in

this results in many more FP matches

(I don't have an alt account if anyone is wondering)

Edited by Davegt27, 15 December 2018 - 10:43 AM.

[Nightbird]

PGI has a great idea for fixing this. ETA 2025.

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 15 December 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

PGI has a great idea for fixing this. ETA 2025.

their proposed match maker wont do anything if the players dogpile. but the two systems are not mutually exclusive and could complement each other. i guess that bucks the eta to 2030.

[HammerMaster]

Piling on the heavier queue is part of the problem.
The other prob is where you start seeing the side the big influential 12 man's take. Guess what side gets populated?
2 hints after how many stomps it takes.

[Grus]

Hazeclaw, on 13 December 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

the fact that we can actually see the que now is gonna go a great deal towards fixing this once people figure it out

"dogpile" and watch the spinning wheel, or change sides and play the game (sorry loyalists, I know this is kicking you while you're already down, but it's true)

From a loyalist, thank you for atlest noticing...

[Bishop Six]

Both sides are used to fight each other in lore, so i think its a really good idea from OP to create this emergency queue to do civil war after long waiting times or one sided population.

Im in, want to feel IS-Opness by myself...