Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:
If both teams are choosing equally poor tactics (go fast,turn left and shoot red guys) then the tactic isn't the winning variable it's the abilities of those performing the inferior shared tactic that can make a difference.
It is always a combination of both, yet one of the distinct differences of MWO compared to your aveage FPS game, is that tactics and positioning here matters way more than wicked twitch reflexes and aiming skills. Unlike CG:GO, given the equal skill of your opponent you can't 'dodge' shots in MWO, you will take same amount of damage you dish out if you 'trade' while being in opponents firing arc. Hence the only way to not take damage while still dishing damage is being outside of said firing arc, i.e. flank and/or find proper angles, i.e. what most see as 'nascar'.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:
Because if it is the tactics that matter then wouldn't this mean that you should be arguing the validity of tactics that oppose each other and not who has what stats?
Not gonna bother arguing anything with a guy who's only argument is 'you are wrong, I am right'.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
Evasion always and I mean always trumps armor. You will run out armor the enemy never runs out of missing.
It works really well in potatoe queue, sure, but we all know that lights are the vastly inferior class when teams with players who can aim meet. So having more armor begins to matter way more. Sure its better to evade when possible, and given the long distance of engagement even assaults can evade, especially using cover. But it doesn't mean that evading is all you should ever do, especially so in assaults, and still so in lights closer to the end of the game.
Sharing armor equally among the team is what actually wins games as it allows you to retain full team firepower for longer periods. You never or hardly ever see this happening in QuickPlay tho for multiple reasons. One being that there are always cowards who hide all game doing basically nothing (except maybe lurming dirt and rocks). Two being non-coward pilots 'nascaring' away from their coward pilots in order to use them as sacrificial lambs / meatshields, and thus increase the chances of winning since the prolonged life of people who shoot enemies is beneficial vs prolonged life of people who do nothing. Many others as well, along the lines of poor team cohesion in terms of builds, playstyles, positioning and so on.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
While assaults have the most armor they are also the most easily hit. So they can take the most damage but get hit the most, essentially not the "best" option to put on the front to be seen first and targeted by multiple enemies.
This statement is false per se, because it depends on what you are doing. If you are doing stationary defence you are supposed to put assaults in the back, because they are easier to hit and because defensive assaults will obviously have longer range weaponry. And obviously you need a 'screening' / 'skirmishing' force of lighter mechs between them and the enemy. On the contrary, if you are on the offensive and aggressivly pushing the enemy, you put your assaults at the very front, as they have close range weaponry, can take more punishment, live and retain firepower longer, as well as being generally least important mech class since they lack the ability to rapidly reach enemy mechs spread out on the defensive positions.
But the thing is, in reality, it is highly irrelevant who is in the front and who takes damage, what matters is that all mechs are able to shoot the enemy, and more importantly, all mechs are able to shoot the same enemy, i.e. focus fire in order to start reducing enemy team firepower as fast as possible.
Obviously some mechs are better suited for tanking and taking damage and some less. But if you bring a mech into QuickPlay it is YOUR responsibility to figure out how to be effective regardless of your team actions. If you bring a slow assault and then keep trying to catch up with the rest of the team that runs away instead of doing something that is actually possible ... well, I have no sympathy for that whatsoever. High individual W/L and consequently winning in solo queue comes not from being the best shooter, but from being able to quickly adapt to any given situation and use your mech effectively on any map regardless of the loadout.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
I would say Assaults are built to deal damage while compromising mobility (evasion) for offense and armor value. Since evasion is tied to mobility and evasion is the superior defense Assault mechs are a compromise to deliver FIREPOWER to the battle field and not "tank" for a team.
Again, this isn't true per se. Given you can have a light mech like a Piranha with ~12+ DPS easily these days, I'd rather have a highly mobile 12 DPS mech that can get anywhere, including enemy rear, really fast, rather than, say a DireWolf with ~15 DPS that basically can't get anywhere at all. So yeah well ... go 'tank' Dire. It still highly depends on what you are doing, i.e. offense, defense, and what your objective is. I'd take a fresh light with 2 DPS over a fresh assaults with ALL DA FIREPOWER in the end of a conquest game for example. But given the concept of sharing armor I've already talked about, high firepower / high importance mechs do have to 'tank' at some point.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
I have divereted more firepower with more reliable effect in a light mech than any assault mech could. That is the whole reason for the "don't chase the squirrel" principle. Multiple mechs shooting and missing a light evasive mech are not posing any threat to an approaching assault mech or if done right a significant threat to the diversionary squirrel mech.
Very true. Given one, enemy team is actually missing, and two, your team does something useful during your squirrel run. But still, the way you do this, is by separating or in other words 'nascaring' away from your team. And trust me, 99 out of 100 'waa waa nascar' crybabies wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a light running away from them to do smth useful and a light just running away. Hence, they'll follow it because 'waa waa team leaves me', instead of doing what they should do while one or several mobile mechs do the distraction. Somehow its always 'waa waa waa useless lights ran away', and yet its the light mech with 100m weapon range and 700 damage in the end of the match vs an assault with 1km range and 100 damage. So, who's been useless?
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
Now onto your second point..."hold the line" you are either not well versed in how to play a light mech or you are shaping the narrative to create a "strawman" by even suggesting light mechs would "hold the line" by standing still.
Since you don't seem like an idiot I will confidently say you are going with the strawman plan.
Hold the line wasn't really my point tho, it was brought up several times before as something that a team is supposed to do when facing enemy nascar. People did suggest turning to face the enemy when first nascar mechs arrive in order to punish them. Obviously they just suggest and never actually do that, because what they fail to think through, is that while you are nascaring you are being proactive and thus you can always stop where YOU want when you've established a good flanking position. On the contrary if you are being reactive to enemy nascar, you stop where THEY want you to, i.e. most likely an open ground just behind a ridge or a corner of a rock / building, where enemies can easily see your position and poke you to death. And if its open ground it doesn't really matter if you stand still or not, you are in the open, anyone can shoot you, its easy to focus fire, people who can aim will either kill a light mech right away or at least cripple it, unless it 'nascars' away. You might think that lights are safe just because there are bigger targets around, but thats not true either. For example when I peek around a corner in a mech with high alpha and see a light and an assault in the open (both fresh), I will always shoot a light, because I got one shot and because one shot won't kill/cripple an assault, but it will either kill or cripple a light.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
So "holding the line" would probably mean performing in a "picket" capacity by deploying wide on a flank along an obvious NASCAR route either unseen and awaiting an opertunity to strike or as "squirrels" to divert firepower from the more easily hit and destroyed assaults. (probably a little of both) Either way the light mech Picket can provide their team with early warning of the enemy approach and what units are approaching.
Yeah sure, 'picket' is good when its possible. But imagine say Caustic rotation round the middle. You form a heavy / assault line facing left awaiting nascar. Where would you go with your light mech 'picket'? You can't go left since there is no cover whatsoever, you are forced to go right where there is some, i.e. 'nascar'. And again, I do 'picket', but the 'waa waa' crybaby would think I'm 'nascaring' away and run after me instead of holding said line. Doing a very wide left picket is possible, but requires a lot of time in advance, which is never available because nobody does proper scouting and frankly maps are way too small, and is risking running into multiple enemy mechs doing wide nascar.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
A proper assault pilot will realize that their mechs most exploitable weakness is a lack of evasion and the most potent advantage is the assault mech's firepower. So it's not unreasonable to expect an assault pilot to leverage cover and teammates providing distractions to over come the weakness of limited evasion in order to leverage superior firepower. After all the enemy will miss a more agile target more often than a lumbering wall of guns and an enemy not actively countering the incoming firepower from an assault is more likely to be hit solidly (they can't twist if they can't see it coming)
Oh and by all means I will support such an assault. Thing is, you meet these kind of players like once in 15-20 matches, and you know most of em by name now anyway.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
There is nuance beyond the surface of what many players assume to be the roles defined by a mech weight class.
Not all assault mechs are "assault mechs" not every light mech is a "light mech"
Yes and no. Yes, because we all know Gargoyle playstyle is that of a heavy. No, because Gargoyle still have armor+structure worth of one-and-a-half assault mech.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
I agree that many if not most of the issues many if not most players complain about NASCAR are heavily mitigated simply by paying attention and gettin a move on fast and early in the match.
They are not mitigated, they are completely non-existent.
Lykaon, on 20 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:
That being said...NASCAR in solo queue is not as much a tactic as a coin toss on what the match maker gave you.
Team A gets a direwolf a annihilator and a Mauler
Team B gets a Kodiak a Madcat MKII and a Charger
Team A gets a flea a Urbanmech and a Raven
Team B gets a Wolfhound and a pair of Piranhas
Team A gets Joe average tier 1 XP bar
Team B gets Max awesomesauce Tier 1 god
Since both teams are utilizing equally weak NASCAR tactics of go fast-turn left-shoot red guys it's the variables of the matchmaker that decide who wins not the tactics.
No, because the pace of the solo QuickPlay games is so slow, even Dires and Annis have plenty of time to get wherever they want. Group queue is more fast paced and there I'd partially agree with you. But in the end of the day, it is the job of everyone on the team to recognize what kind of mechs you have and whether you can or can't nascar / hold the line effectively. The problem is however, that you are PUGging, i.e. you don't know what weapons your teammates have or what speed their mechs have (unless omni). Without that knowledge I will do what MY mech does best regardless of what some crybaby in a 40 kph lurmageddon assault wants me to.
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