11 replies to this topic

[Brizna]

And between the speed and spread buffs in direct fire mode, not that difficult in the 180m to 600m, lurms felt not quite but a lot more like Streaks than lurms should. If this change goes in as is it will make the life of light mechs even more miserable than it already is. Streaks are at least very limited in range and have very low speed, not so with lurms, you have some time to react, but even with a light it is very little.

[50 50]

The angle shouldn't have made much difference.
Streaks have a projectile speed of 280 for IS and 260 for Clan.
LRMs are 175.... which is a drop in speed as per the notes.
The lower angle means less flight time, but the missiles are not faster.

[Brizna]

You are right about the speed of lurms and streak, my bad. Yet the perception I had about the increase in deadliness of lurms against light mechs is correct.

I just did the following test in testing ground with the live and PTS server.

Mech A: Awesome 4xLRM15 Artemis + TAG
Mech B: Unmanned Commando from testing grounds.

Experiment: Chain fire LRM15s at 200m range with direct LOS and TAG.

Live server: 15 shots were necessary to destroy the Commando
Test server: 8 shot were enough to destroy the Commando

Summary: LURMS are twice as effective at destroying immobile lights in the test server as they are in the live servers. Which is worrying to say the least. More live testing is required with moving targets.

[Siegegun]

Brizna, on 17 January 2019 - 05:50 AM, said:

You are right about the speed of lurms and streak, my bad. Yet the perception I had about the increase in deadliness of lurms against light mechs is correct.

I just did the following test in testing ground with the live and PTS server.

Mech A: Awesome 4xLRM15 Artemis + TAG
Mech B: Unmanned Commando from testing grounds.

Experiment: Chain fire LRM15s at 200m range with direct LOS and TAG.

Live server: 15 shots were necessary to destroy the Commando
Test server: 8 shot were enough to destroy the Commando

Summary: LURMS are twice as effective at destroying immobile lights in the test server as they are in the live servers. Which is worrying to say the least. More live testing is required with moving targets.

Yes, but the IDF mode of the test server isn't being shown and that is a more direct comparison. In other words, yes the new DF mode takes 8 shots but your comparing it to Live IDF. They made the IDF of test much worse, which you cant test on the test server. Also immobile light is the key word, when moving they are much harder to hit and kill. I am not saying there does not need to be tweaks, or its all ok right now, just that while valuable info,your comparison leaves a lot out.

[50 50]

Ah ok, I get what you are referring to and yes I would agree that the weapons are more efficient if you have LOS.
I also believe that TAG also plays a part.

I did a test with a Supernova with 4 LRM20s on the test server and found:
5 volleys to destroy an Awesome with indirect fire.
4 volleys with direct fire
3 volleys using TAG
I'd have to compare that with the same setup and scenario on the live server but there is an advantage if you have LOS and as a light mech pilot, or any mech for that matter, if you get caught in the open you will get punished but that's not really limited to getting hit by LRMs.

If anything I would query the use of the lock on feature with the LRMs as this effectively (and always has really) turned them into homing missiles.... aka streaks.
If they were a dumb fire system equivalent to the SRMs and MRMs we would have to use them very differently... and that would also allow the game to then have Streak LRMs as a separate weapon.... don't see how we would really do that while standard LRMs have a lock on.

Dumb fire in LOS is pretty straight forward and like other projectile weapons you would need to lead the target and that sort of thing. That would take a bit of getting used to but it's not impossible.
It would be very hard to hit a target in indirect fire however and how they are used in that manner would need to be re-thought a little.
Personally I think there might be room to make them more of an area saturation weapon with the potential to hit multiple targets per volley and see them used more in an area denial role.

[Y E O N N E]

Anything that needs to sit out in the open will now be competing directly against the rather stupendous DPS you can achieve with LRMs. May or may not be a problem, considering they are guided. We'll see.

50 50, on 17 January 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

If they were a dumb fire system equivalent to the SRMs and MRMs we would have to use them very differently... and that would also allow the game to then have Streak LRMs as a separate weapon.... don't see how we would really do that while standard LRMs have a lock on.

Streaks continue to track even after you lose lock in MWO, LRMs and ARMs do not. As-is, a Streak LRM in MWO would be an LRM that continues to track even after the lock is broken.

[50 50]

That's not a lot of difference

[Siegegun]

50 50, on 17 January 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Ah ok, I get what you are referring to and yes I would agree that the weapons are more efficient if you have LOS.
I also believe that TAG also plays a part.

I did a test with a Supernova with 4 LRM20s on the test server and found:
5 volleys to destroy an Awesome with indirect fire.
4 volleys with direct fire
3 volleys using TAG
I'd have to compare that with the same setup and scenario on the live server but there is an advantage if you have LOS and as a light mech pilot, or any mech for that matter, if you get caught in the open you will get punished but that's not really limited to getting hit by LRMs.

If anything I would query the use of the lock on feature with the LRMs as this effectively (and always has really) turned them into homing missiles.... aka streaks.
If they were a dumb fire system equivalent to the SRMs and MRMs we would have to use them very differently... and that would also allow the game to then have Streak LRMs as a separate weapon.... don't see how we would really do that while standard LRMs have a lock on.

Dumb fire in LOS is pretty straight forward and like other projectile weapons you would need to lead the target and that sort of thing. That would take a bit of getting used to but it's not impossible.
It would be very hard to hit a target in indirect fire however and how they are used in that manner would need to be re-thought a little.
Personally I think there might be room to make them more of an area saturation weapon with the potential to hit multiple targets per volley and see them used more in an area denial role.

How is tag magically making it take less volleys to make a kill? As far as I am aware all tag does is reduce lock time. Curious about that. Also if you can make a private game on the test server then we can do more direct comparisons. Not sure if they let you do that or not. I will do some tests myself. Need to do an OS install first as I just got a new SSD drive.

Upon missile design "wishful" thinking... I would not have implemented the LRM missiles the way they are. I would have done a manual IDF design with NARC and TAG providing auto homing. In a manual system (twitch system) when the target is locked, if you have LRMS equipped, a round "crosshair" appears above the mech with the LRM crosshair changing height as the distance between the mechs changes. You point your actual crosshair into the LRM circle crosshair, and shoot like a direct fire weapon. Voila, manual twitch IDF. If they had done it this way they could have implemented mech mortars as well, using the same mechanic. NARC and TAG would provide autohoming. A Tribes 2 mod 15 years ago did their mortars this way.

[Y E O N N E]

50 50, on 17 January 2019 - 10:08 PM, said:

That's not a lot of difference

For LRMs, where breaking LoS is the primary means of defense, that would be a huge deal since breaking LoS would no longer work. Only hard cover, AMS, or exceeding the range would work.

[50 50]

Siegegun, on 18 January 2019 - 02:23 AM, said:

How is tag magically making it take less volleys to make a kill? As far as I am aware all tag does is reduce lock time. Curious about that. Also if you can make a private game on the test server then we can do more direct comparisons. Not sure if they let you do that or not. I will do some tests myself. Need to do an OS install first as I just got a new SSD drive.

Seemed to focus more on the CT when using TAG.
I ran it through a couple of times but that's hardly conclusive.
Haven't really sat down and repeated the test enough to say, yes, it helps focus the missiles.
If it does, then it would also be interesting to confirm how much it helps with indirect fire.

Can certainly do private matches on the test server and that would be good for testing certain features to get a clearer picture.

[50 50]

Y E O N N E, on 18 January 2019 - 09:48 PM, said:

For LRMs, where breaking LoS is the primary means of defense, that would be a huge deal since breaking LoS would no longer work. Only hard cover, AMS, or exceeding the range would work.

Which is usually done by getting behind cover. Not going to help if you hide in a ditch as the arc should still let the missiles connect, but a wall is a wall.
My feeling is that if we ever did get Streak LRMs added to the game we wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless there is some radical alteration to how they function. Given that we may not see extensive amounts of coding into new features or designs it's why I questioned the existing LRMs using the lock on.as it would then be a key and easily identifiable difference between Standard LRMs and Streak LRMs..... especially for new players to comprehend.

Use the comparison of Standard SRMs to Streak SRMs. As they are now, pretty easy to understand the differences.
But what would it be like if Standard SRMs also used a lock on?
A: "They home in."
Q: "But they home in anyway?"
A: "They home in more."
Q: "Does that mean more missiles hit?"
A: "They might if they don't hit obstructions or the target moves out of line of sight or another mech doesn't cross the flight path"
Q: "So the homing homing missiles don't go around obstructions or dodge around things?
A: "No. They aren't homing homing seeking missiles."
Q: "Just homing homing missiles."
A: "That's right"
Q: "Got any cheese?"

... don't think I can quite work that into the Monty Python cheese skit in the point I'm meandering towards making.

[Y E O N N E]

A ditch currently works against standard LRMs if you have Radar Deprivation and they lose the lock; it would not work against Streak LRMs just as it doesn't work against Streaks around bends.