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This Pts Is How Lrms Should Have Worked In The First Place


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#1 Tibbnak

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 09:12 PM

Pretty great.
Only thing I'd change is only make the indirect fire work if the target is tagged/Narc'd. Otherwise, good stuff.

#2 The6thMessenger

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:18 PM

I agree, but it seems people wouldn't like that.

IDF is ineffective as it currently is, that it's only OP on really coordinated team. Why not leave it be?

#3 LordNothing

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:18 PM

living legends is how lrms should have worked in the first place. but this is acceptable for pgi. not great, not even good, but acceptable (i don't want to encourage mediocrity). dont get me wrong, its an improvement, but, meh.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 January 2019 - 10:30 PM.


#4 Bad Pun

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:25 PM

I'll take the Direct/Indirect changes, but the weapon spread has things at the weakest I have ever seen LRMs. So things are getting closer, just need to tighten up the patterns back to where they were. At least for Direct fire, if nothing else.

#5 Siegegun

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:56 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 16 January 2019 - 10:18 PM, said:

I agree, but it seems people wouldn't like that.

IDF is ineffective as it currently is, that it's only OP on really coordinated team. Why not leave it be?


I am not ineffective with IDF. It is worse than live server, but still kills people quite well.

#6 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:12 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 16 January 2019 - 11:56 PM, said:


I am not ineffective with IDF. It is worse than live server, but still kills people quite well.


With immense piggybacking and lots of LRMs.

#7 Siegegun

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:34 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 12:12 AM, said:


With immense piggybacking and lots of LRMs.



Of course, that's how the weapon works lol. That's like saying your doing well with ac5s because you shoot lots of ac5s. When using IDF your ALWAYS piggybacking, and the more tubes the more effective you are with LRMs, not a secret. And usually true with every weapon system including LRMs. The point is I am effective with IDF still. It is worse than live though.

#8 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:37 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 12:34 AM, said:

Of course, that's how the weapon works lol. That's like saying your doing well with ac5s because you shoot lots of ac5s.

When using IDF your ALWAYS piggybacking, and the more tubes the more effective you are with LRMs, not a secret. And usually true with every weapon system including LRMs. The point is I am effective with IDF still. It is worse than live though.


Problem is that, teams aren't always that coordinated for IDF. It's always just chances, and you biting your chances. That is not something you can reasonably expect within solo-queue. That is why I specified that it's OP on coordinated teams. Teams aren't also that reliable for locks, that's why the reliable locks are always your own.

There's no question that you could compensate with a lot of LRMs for a result, kinda the whole point with their playstyle, I don't contest that. But IDF being reliant on team-mates means you surrender a great deal of control as to how you deliver your damage; it's inconsistent and you need a whole lot of LRMs to compete with direct-fire weapons.

LRM needs a great amount of time to kill compared to other direct-fire setups, and fact is the team wouldn't be too happy to give you that window of time, and chances are your team is too stupid to do that.

And that's why IDF LRMs is ineffective.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 January 2019 - 12:52 AM.


#9 Siegegun

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:52 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 12:37 AM, said:


Problem is that, teams aren't always that coordinated for IDF. It's always just chances, and you biting your chances. That is not something you can reasonably expect within solo-queue. That is why I specified that it's OP on coordinated teams.

Teams aren't also that reliable for lucks, that's why the reliable locks are always your own.


I do fine with LRMs in SQ as well. I usually play them. Have an alt I just made who has only used LRMs in SQ, it doesn't have near enough games on it to even out the statistics, but it is currently in the top ten in heavy mechs on the leaderboards in matchscore. This account is at 603 in matchscore on the leaderboards when sorted by weight class heavy. I do OK with LRMs. I do not even put backup weapons on those heavy builds. Nothing but tubes.

#10 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:55 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 12:52 AM, said:


I do fine with LRMs in SQ as well. I usually play them. Have an alt I just made who has only used LRMs in SQ, it doesn't have near enough games on it to even out the statistics, but it is currently in the top ten in heavy mechs on the leaderboards in matchscore. This account is at 603 in matchscore on the leaderboards when sorted by weight class heavy. I do OK with LRMs. I do not even put backup weapons on those heavy builds. Nothing but tubes.


IDF is ineffective because it's slow, it requires too much coordination for it's own good.

Getting result isn't really an issue with LRMs, problem is that it's slower than the rest to get result. Do you think the enemy team would be too happy to give you that time to kill them? Or do you think that your team is good enough to actually give you enough time?

#11 Siegegun

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:15 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 12:55 AM, said:


IDF is ineffective because it's slow, it requires too much coordination for it's own good.

Getting result isn't really an issue with LRMs, problem is that it's slower than the rest to get result. Do you think the enemy team would be too happy to give you that time to kill them? Or do you think that your team is good enough to actually give you enough time?


In the end my stats are speaking. I reliably use LRMs in SQ. I win more than I lose. Sorted by heavies, my k/d ratio is at 122 on the leaderboards on my alt account and I am at 1733 on this account. My w/l ratio is ranked 269 on the alt, 4109on this account. It is actually my DF stats that lower this main account (actual good players insert potato meme here). That and "fun" builds.

#12 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:27 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

In the end my stats are speaking. I reliably use LRMs in SQ. I win more than I lose. Sorted by heavies, my k/d ratio is at 122 on the leaderboards on my alt account and I am at 1733 on this account. My w/l ratio is ranked 269 on the alt, 4109on this account. It is actually my DF stats that lower this main account (actual good players insert potato meme here). That and "fun" builds.


Yes, you reliably use it, but it's not the question about you but the weapon system itself as a whole. All you could ever argue with what you say is that you have enough skill to compensate for LRMs.

I have better stats using other DF weapons than LRMs, why would we take your stats with it? You see the problem?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 January 2019 - 01:30 AM.


#13 Siegegun

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 01:27 AM, said:


Yes, you reliably use it, but it's not the question about you but the weapon system itself as a whole. All you could ever argue with what you say is that you have enough skill to compensate for LRMs.

I have better stats using other DF weapons than LRMs, why would we take your stats with it? You see the problem?


What exactly are you trying to say? You said above that LRMs cannot be used reliably. I said yes they can and showed you they can with real life stats. Are you trying to argue that they are not good? I never said they were, or were not. All I said was they can be used reliably to net positive effect in SQ. And they can. That was all. And what do you mean I have enough "skill" to compensate for them? I am using LRMs, ONLY LRMs. Are you saying they take skill to use? If so then I am using skill and reliably killing people with them. Just like any other weapon system. I do think what some of the top players are saying is true, the way they are implemented encourages turtling and lazy playstyle, non sharing of armor. But just because the system encourages that does not mean you have to play it like that.

#14 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 02:15 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

What exactly are you trying to say? You said above that LRMs cannot be used reliably.


I said that teams aren't reliable for getting locks for IDF, why LRMs are best used like DF because ones own locks are far more reliable.

I said that they are inconsistent, because your team is inconsistent, and you have to rely upon them to get your IDF.

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

I said yes they can and showed you they can with real life stats.


And I said something completely different.

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

Are you trying to argue that they are not good? I never said they were, or were not.


I said LRMs employed as IDF was ineffective, that they need baby-sitting and coordinated team to work.


View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

All I said was they can be used reliably to net positive effect in SQ. And they can. That was all.


Never said that they can't.

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

And what do you mean I have enough "skill" to compensate for them? Are you saying they take skill to use? If so then I am using skill and reliably killing people with them.


What happens on the battlefield is a combination of a lot of other skills, such as positioning skills, strategy skills, being situationally aware, a lot of other stuffs.

It's not that they take skills to use mechanically, rather they require skills to win. Time and time again, there's an LRM-OP thread, which highlights the need of git-gud in positioning, which is common for newbies. Any respectable player shouldn't be getting nabbed by LRMs, which poses a great challenge for the LRM user.

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

Just like any other weapon system. I do think what some of the top players are saying is true, the way they are implemented encourages turtling and lazy playstyle, non sharing of armor. But just because the system encourages that does not mean you have to play it like that.


No, of course not. I think we have veered off from "LRM IDF is Inneffective"

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 January 2019 - 02:18 AM.


#15 Siegegun

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 04:39 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 02:15 AM, said:


I said that teams aren't reliable for getting locks for IDF, why LRMs are best used like DF because ones own locks are far more reliable.

I said that they are inconsistent, because your team is inconsistent, and you have to rely upon them to get your IDF.



And I said something completely different.



I said LRMs employed as IDF was ineffective, that they need baby-sitting and coordinated team to work.




Never said that they can't.



What happens on the battlefield is a combination of a lot of other skills, such as positioning skills, strategy skills, being situationally aware, a lot of other stuffs.

It's not that they take skills to use mechanically, rather they require skills to win. Time and time again, there's an LRM-OP thread, which highlights the need of git-gud in positioning, which is common for newbies. Any respectable player shouldn't be getting nabbed by LRMs, which poses a great challenge for the LRM user.



No, of course not. I think we have veered off from "LRM IDF is Inneffective"


What you are saying is not true in my experience. I have real numbers showing what you are saying is not true. You can believe what you will. They are effective and reliable in SQ.

#16 The6thMessenger

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 02:51 PM

View PostSiegegun, on 17 January 2019 - 04:39 AM, said:


What you are saying is not true in my experience. I have real numbers showing what you are saying is not true. You can believe what you will. They are effective and reliable in SQ.


All your numbers ever said is you played with LRMs, not that you played them completely with IDF.

My experience taught me that getting my own locks is far reliable than locks from my own team. It's true to my experience. Where does that leave us?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 January 2019 - 02:51 PM.


#17 Siegegun

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:37 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 17 January 2019 - 02:51 PM, said:


All your numbers ever said is you played with LRMs, not that you played them completely with IDF.

My experience taught me that getting my own locks is far reliable than locks from my own team. It's true to my experience. Where does that leave us?


How I play them doesn't matter though and that is the point. My stat numbers on both accounts playing ONLY LRMs with the alt and mostly LRMs with this one show they can be used reliably and well. They are not feast or famine for me, I consistently do well with them, anyone can. And like said earlier, I am not even using any backup weapons on those builds. I do not think you know how to use them well. Either from lack of understanding the system or from lack of real use. Or both. This opinion is from past LRM statements you have made and from this convo. I do think you care about the game, its balance and try to improve it from your perspective.

In the end it leaves you with terrible stats on the weapon system and me with solid stats with it. I know who Id listen to regarding playstyle, builds, what is possible and what is not. Especially if they had numbers showing it.

If you want come group with me sometime. We can play some FP or GQ and I will SHOW you that you are wrong. I will be your LURM huckleberry.

#18 The6thMessenger

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 06:13 AM

View PostSiegegun, on 18 January 2019 - 03:37 AM, said:

How I play them doesn't matter though and that is the point.


So how do you know you're testing the right thing if you can't isolate it?

Your entire argument falls apart right here. The rest you say about your stats is irrelevant, what you are raising isn't my concern, you aren't answering my concern.

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 16 January 2019 - 10:18 PM, said:

IDF is ineffective as it currently is, that it's only OP on really coordinated team. Why not leave it be?


I specified IDF, that it's only "op on coodinated teams", which infers uncoordinated teams. And if you aren't isolating IDF, then you cannot have a clear conclusion, as a lot of other factors contaminate and skews the result.

The question isn't whether LRMs are poor weapons and cannot get result, rather that IDF use of LRMs are ineffective, and they are ineffective because targets are unreliable, because teams are unreliable, because to do IDF you need to rely on your teams to get locks.

View PostSiegegun, on 18 January 2019 - 03:37 AM, said:

If you want come group with me sometime. We can play some FP or GQ and I will SHOW you that you are wrong. I will be your LURM huckleberry.


No I don't. You won't show anything, you cannot show anything, because you cannot isolate variables, it just leaves us a lot of head-scratching before ambiguous conclusions. Do you even experiment bro?

And then "group". Really? You do realize that, you are again contaminating the result by manipulating the wrong variables.

I specified that "LRMs are OP with Coordinated Teams" that it is "inneffective" because you don't usually get coordinated teams. Uncoordinated team that spawns in solo-queue is unreliable which the "ineffective" originates from, but you are getting a teammate, in an environment of higher cohesion, you are ultimately skewing the result. It's like wondering if glue tastes like glue -- no ****, it tastes like glue

The rest of your reply is irrelevant, your numbers are irrelevant because they do not isolate, (and probably having to club-seals skewed the results already).

You aren't arguing properly, you are barely even addressing my concern, this discussion isn't getting us anywhere.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 January 2019 - 06:16 AM.






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