12 replies to this topic

[Khazad Boom]

I've been working to get my mechs skilled out and optimized. I planned to build a FP deck once the mechs are all ready. I was gived the RFL-8D as a loyalty gift. Is there a good build that would make effective in a deck? Is there a better 60 ton option? Two questions really.

I was looking at having this: Annihilator 2A or Fafnir 5 / Warhammer 6R / *60 tonner* / Wolfhound 1
...OR... 3 Warhammers and a Bushwacker P2 deck.

Thanks. <0. .0.

[tutzdes]

Khazad Boom, on 30 January 2019 - 10:10 PM, said:

I've been working to get my mechs skilled out and optimized. I planned to build a FP deck once the mechs are all ready. I was gived the RFL-8D as a loyalty gift. Is there a good build that would make effective in a deck? Is there a better 60 ton option? Two questions really.

I was looking at having this: Annihilator 2A or Fafnir 5 / Warhammer 6R / *60 tonner* / Wolfhound 1
...OR... 3 Warhammers and a Bushwacker P2 deck.

1) I don't like this Rifleman variant personally so I may be a bit biased;
2) It can sure be useful for FP with HPPC poptart build, probably much more so than it is for QP;
3) There are two: Dragon 5N (long-range 3xUAC2 classic) and Quickdraw IV-4 (mid-close range, MRMs). For double dakka some 55t Bushwackers (any variant with ballistic side-torsos) are better than Rifleman.

[BoldricKent]

Real advantage of 8D are JJ, they cost you tonnage and limit you in builds, but if you are keen on using it, include JJ, adjust your deployment setup and play style to it. I use it as a mid to short range, 2 lbx10, 4 ersml, 250 light(or thereabout) its a poors man Legend killer, not even close in quriks for LBX, but JJ will help you out a lot, still fun and different Rifleman.
Qickdraw and Dragons dont compere to Rifleman, they are cavalry mech (flank) not lineholders.

[Tesunie]

Khazad Boom, on 30 January 2019 - 10:10 PM, said:

I've been working to get my mechs skilled out and optimized. I planned to build a FP deck once the mechs are all ready. I was gived the RFL-8D as a loyalty gift. Is there a good build that would make effective in a deck? Is there a better 60 ton option? Two questions really.

I was looking at having this: Annihilator 2A or Fafnir 5 / Warhammer 6R / *60 tonner* / Wolfhound 1
...OR... 3 Warhammers and a Bushwacker P2 deck.

Thanks. <0. .0.

As much as I hate to say this, but the Warhammer x3 and a Bushwacker deck would probably be the better more well rounded option.

However, your best bet with this specific Rifleman might be to (and I hate to say this) ignore it's JJs and treat it like any other Rifleman. I tried to combine AC10s and PPCs, but do to weight issues, I ended up running AC5s and LPPCs I believe. I get... alright results with it.

So, sadly, I don't have a specific build to even suggest, as I haven't landed on a good build in my own opinion yet. As for 60 ton mechs, there are Dragons and Quickdraws, and the Quickdraw has several good builds you can make on them.

Given time, the Champion will eventually come up as an option. That mech is the 60 ton mech I would have suggested... if it was out for C-bills right now.

BoldricKent, on 31 January 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Qickdraw and Dragons dont compere to Rifleman, they are cavalry mech (flank) not lineholders.

To be honest, the Riflemen aren't exactly "line holders" either. They (in my opinion) don't have the hit boxes for it and they also lack any health armor quirks (last I checked). Urbanmech, Enforcer, Vidicator, Dragon are all better line holders than the Rifleman. (Dragon is here due to it's armor quirks... last I knew.)

[BoldricKent]

Tesunie, on 31 January 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

To be honest, the Riflemen aren't exactly "line holders" either. They (in my opinion) don't have the hit boxes for it and they also lack any health armor quirks (last I checked). Urbanmech, Enforcer, Vidicator, Dragon are all better line holders than the Rifleman. (Dragon is here due to it's armor quirks... last I knew.)

There are few problems with that assumption, lineholder mech does not count on it armor, more on dps and good weapon points( which should allow you to fire over cover or friendly mech) and if you compere it to Jaggermech , Rifleman has good hit boxes. Dragon is pure cavalry mech, Vindicators and Enforcers more on skirmish role, Urbanmech are still lights...again more skirmishers then scouts.

[Tesunie]

BoldricKent, on 31 January 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

There are few problems with that assumption, lineholder mech does not count on it armor, more on dps and good weapon points( which should allow you to fire over cover or friendly mech) and if you compere it to Jaggermech , Rifleman has good hit boxes. Dragon is pure cavalry mech, Vindicators and Enforcers more on skirmish role, Urbanmech are still lights...again more skirmishers then scouts.

To typically be described as a line holder, a mech normally needs to be able to absorb large amounts of damage and continue to be a valid target, and preferably still a threat. An Atlas is a line holder, for example, because it has large amounts of health. An Urbanmech, for it's weight class, is a line holder due to it's large health quirks. It's still a light mech, and will still move around in more of a skirmisher fashion, but it can be a line holder if needed on short notice.

The mech class you are referring to is not line holder, but more second line support. A Rifleman has solid high mounted weapon hardpoints, letting it shoot over taller obstacles and possibly even other mechs in front of it. It's arguably even more of a sniper mech. It's not a front line mech because it can't exactly take a hit very well. For the 60 ton class, the Dragon (once again, last I knew) has better health quirks and (depending upon loadout or how well you protect the weapon arm) can take hits well and continue to be a valid threat. The Dragon is traditionally a striker mech in lore, but in MW:O it is more of a linesmen (with striker elements). (Do also consider, in MW:O any mech can have the potential to perform nearly any task, within it's hardpoint options and engine cap restrictions.)

As mentioned above, the Vinidcator is a reasonable linesmen due to it's high armor quriks, which last I knew placed it's armor values at near heavy mech status. The Enforcer has reasonable hit boxes, meaning it can spread damage well, making it also able to fill in the role of a linesmen.


A linesmen is a mech that can hold the line and take hits. That means it needs to have good hit boxes and/or good health quirks permitting it to stay in the fight longer than other mech's of it's weight class. Your definition "lineholder mech does not count on it armor, more on dps and good weapon points" is more of a support or striker mech, as a line holder should be the front mech, not a mech behind other mechs. Hence "Linesmen"/Line-holder hold the line...

[Khazad Boom]

As of now I have the Bushwacker and 2 of the 3 Warhammers skilled out. Im grinding out the Warhammer 6D now. I just need to find FP viable builds for each. Magic Pain Gloves FP guide is helping with that.

Thank you all.

[BoldricKent]

Sorry for detour.
For FP youll need more then 1 deck, and builds depends on maps you are dealt. So getting universal drop deck is high order.
Your main limiting factors will be heat, terrain and your drop buddies. As general rule for IS you want cool running mech (1.36 ++ heat), in your setup min speed would be around 70-75, a bit of a problem...non of your mech has JJ or speed to deal with alternative modes (conquest). Terrain will dictate basic rule of engagement or a main range bracket, while its true in most cases you will brawl, some maps and team will make you pay to get to that point. Take AMS(helps you and your team). On team, always regroup, with your selected mech, stay within the main body and focus fire (shoot until kill, spreading damage can get you nice score but kills will win it) and be aggressive ( if large chunk of opponents are re spawning either kill the rest quick or secure the objective, dont waste time chasing opponents). In your current setup you are mostly short to mid range, with mainly balistic/energy builds... i would be a heretic and tell, make at least one missile boat, and think about light problem ž8streaks, pulse lasers).

[BoldricKent]

And Tesunie : Atlas is an assault/brawl mech, meant to push enemy not hold it, that would be job of a Mauler,Cyclops to extend.
Holding line is more question of dps then armor, those with armor are meant for breaching enemy line. If we go historical...
heavy cavalry was checked by archers, but line was hold with infantry that pattern didnt change even in civil war of USA and current ones lines are far more mobile, but still armor is used for breaching far more then defending.

[Tesunie]

BoldricKent, on 01 February 2019 - 12:55 AM, said:

And Tesunie : Atlas is an assault/brawl mech, meant to push enemy not hold it, that would be job of a Mauler,Cyclops to extend.
Holding line is more question of dps then armor, those with armor are meant for breaching enemy line. If we go historical...
heavy cavalry was checked by archers, but line was hold with infantry that pattern didnt change even in civil war of USA and current ones lines are far more mobile, but still armor is used for breaching far more then defending.

Atlas is typically considered a line holder by it's design and ability to take hits. It can be a brawler (and traditionally is), but can also be support depending upon how it's loudout is. Line holders can advance and push on the enemy, it's known as pushing your line forwards. Line holders are not limited to being immobile turrets.

The Stalker is a mech, for example, known in lore to being an all-rounder but mostly support. In this game, it's a linesmen due to how forgiving the hit boxes tend to be, spreading damage across the whole of the mech (excluding arms). From there, it can be set up for several other roles, be it brawling, sniping, support, mid range... Mechs typically are not limited to a single role for the chassis, and often mechs are a blend of two if not more role designations.

What makes a linesmen classification is not so dependent upon the loadout, but is heavily dependent upon the mech's shape, how well it takes damage and/or what armor quirks it may have to help prolong it's survival. This doesn't mean a linesmen mech can't fulfill other battlefield roles, or even ignore it's strength as a linesmen mech completely. (LRM Atlas anyone?)

I mean, for a good example, a Linebacker isn't always relegated to "brawler" status. Just because it can take a lot of SRMs doesn't mean it's only a brawler. It can be a striker, flanker, and cavalry mech while sporting the same SRMs. It can also be a mid ranged striker, flanker and linesmen (it has reasonable hit boxes as well as can get reasonable health quirks, but isn't a per say strength) by changing up it's weapons to a laser heavy configuration. It can even be a sniper mech if one tosses on some shoulder mounted PPCs or some such.


FYI: Armor does not "breach" enemy lines... DPS does. DPS drops targets, and the lack of those targets causes breaches. Armor absorbs damage, meaning it "holds the line", permitting your forces to get closer to the enemy, or hold a firing position long enough to breach the enemy line via other teammates ability to damage.

Some Linesmen mechs I can think of off the top of my head: Urbanmech, Vindicator, Crab, Enforcer, Centurion (if you utilize that shield arm), Bushwacker, Dragon, Cataphract (because of it's high health quirks), Warhammer, Maruader, Stalker, Atlas, Annihilator.
Obviously, this is not a full list, but if you look at most of them, they all typically have two things in common. Either they have good hit boxes (Crab, Bushwacker, Stalker), or they have very impressive health quirks (Vindicator, Urbanmech, Cataphract, Atlas). A Linesmen is based on the mech, where as Brawler, Striker, Support, etc are based upon build layout. Just because a mech can be fast (Dragon), doesn't mean it has to go fast. That means it isn't always going to be a Striker, even if the mech itself leans more towards that role.

---

As a side note, the Warhammer and Bushwacker drop deck is a good solid choice for a reason. Look at the list of mechs mentioned above. Both the Warhammer and Bushwacker are considered Linesmen mechs because of their ability to take hits. Each can also mount good weapon options, so they can fulfill other roles. There is a reason there are so many Warhammers and Bushwackers in use in most matches, and not so many Riflemen or Archers as possible counter examples.

[Khazad Boom]

I finally got the 3 Warhammers and Bushie all skilled out. My Bushwacker is set up as a brawler/finisher. I was thinking about using it for second drop use on already open/damaged enemy mechs. My Warhammer 7S is set up with 2 MRM30 for sandblasting armor maybe. with my 6R I thought about going dual gauss but right now it has 2 AC10s and 6 meds. My 6D has 2LPL 5MED vomit for now.

Thanks for the advice.

I went ahead and set up the beginnings another deck but I don't 3 of those mechs optimized at all. Back to the grind...

[Tesunie]

Khazad Boom, on 01 February 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:

I finally got the 3 Warhammers and Bushie all skilled out. My Bushwacker is set up as a brawler/finisher. I was thinking about using it for second drop use on already open/damaged enemy mechs. My Warhammer 7S is set up with 2 MRM30 for sandblasting armor maybe. with my 6R I thought about going dual gauss but right now it has 2 AC10s and 6 meds. My 6D has 2LPL 5MED vomit for now.

Thanks for the advice.

I went ahead and set up the beginnings another deck but I don't 3 of those mechs optimized at all. Back to the grind...

From what I saw of the Warhammer builds you mentioned, they seem solid to me. 2 AC10s and 6 MLs is fairly common, and good general purpose mid range build. Probably a good first wave drop to "feel out" your opponent.

It's always advised to go from slowest to fastest mech when dropping (often confusedly stated as "heaviest to lightest" as typically heavier mechs are slower). It sounds like your Bushwacker should be mid to late drop, but play it as you feel.

From what I could see, the AC10 Warhammer should work reasonably well in several dropdecks. You typically want 2-3 different dropdecks (depending upon how many you own). One should be for cold maps, and the other for hot maps. A third may be useful for maps where you expect a lot of long range and could be geared for that, but this is less of an issue. Some mechs may/will be compatible for several different decks.

Personally, I only run one deck for everything, as many of my builds are more generalist mid ranged builds that run reasonably with heat. So they normally work no matter what the general situation is. Then again, I've often done better with a deck of all medium mechs rather than the traditional "fill in all/as much of the tonnage you can" deck. This is, of course, player specific. Overall, run what you feel best in, even if it doesn't utilize all of your tonnage. Then, adjust your decks from there based upon your results.

I have a feeling you are already doing well with much of this, just from looking at your deck. You've made some good decisions so far in your deck construction.

[BoldricKent]

I would say 2 ac10 and 6 ml tends to run hot in prolonged battles, one of alternatives if you are more of a brawler is replace some with SPL, which will up DPS with less heat issues... i usually put shorter duration weapons in main body, while keeping longer duration in arm, since we can track (also for UV and such).
7S is a difficult one, since it hit boxes change quite a bit depending on size of launchers, while high mount is nice it can be spotted from a moon, so im keeping ASRM 6 on my.
6D, try out 3 LL setup, LL are in much like ML in sweet spot for dmg/heat/cooldown, you can downgrade arm weapons to gain missing tonnage. Duration of beams will be much closer.
Still think Bushie should be able to deal with light wave, so lock missiles, crit weapons.