44 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

(Please note this is posted in a hurry and will be edited tomorrow)
This is one of several I'll have (one for each weapon type..ballistics, energy, missile).

This thread is going to be dedicated to hosting and storing ballistic weapons to be added into MW5: Mercs as the first phase of my Battletech Simulator mod, "Battletech Weapon Variants"
These weapons will have both similarities and differences from my "Kon's Reasonably-True-To-Lore Weapon Variants" mod, which I hope to be releasing in May. (HBS Battletech's update changed something in my "don't mess up mah multiplayah" version's single player. If I can't find a way to work around it I'm just gonna abandon that one as it is so much harder to keep functional with updates).

Spoiler

The reason for these differences is in a turn based system as well as in Battletech's limitations (must choose between burst count and shot count, where burst goes to the same body part and shot rolls for a new body part every time, can't combine both), compromises had to be made to make them balanced without some outright being better than others.

In real time, I can be more true to the source material as how you aim isn't controlled by "its either this or that" but instead by pointing and clicking. Also the definition of a weapon class gives a good bit of leeway. For example an Autocannon/20 doesn't necessarily mean it does 20 damage, but "around" 20 damage within a span of time. This leeway, with the help of a bit of fluff, has given me some good ways to adjust and balance certain issues that would otherwise come up with Battletech weapons.

For example, the 180mm Tomodzuru Mount Type 20 cannon carried by the Hunchback requires 5 shots to net its rating. But the Ebon Jaguar has twin barrels (look at original models for Cauldron Born Alt A Config, the UAC/20 has twin barrels) which each fire only once to net 20 damage (on a mech that has to be short and in novels is either at less than cruise speed or stationary and crouching to fire this cannon due to its kickback).. then we have the Crusher Super Heavy which is 150mm and fires a 10 shot burst to net 20 damage... and now compare to the Victor's Pontiac 100 which is an extremely low caliber weapon famous for putting down 100-round bursts.
If each does 20 damage exactly, then the first does 4 damage per projectile, the second does 10 damage per projectile, the third does 2 damage per each and finally the last does 0.2 per bullet.
Not cool, right?
Well breaking down the stated shell size to a "standard damage format" over the years, I've found that each one with reasonable consistency breaks down almost universally, so 30mm always does 0.2 per bullet when comparing every weapon variant that uses it.. so we could assume that the Pontiac 100 is 30mm and be accurate for damage. But its not. Justin Alard's AC/20 in the Yen Lo Wang is a Pontiac 100 stolen from a Victor. It isn't modified and it uses 40mm.
Here's where it gets fun, 40mm comes out universally to 0.25 damage per bullet. 100 of these nets 25 damage. 5 more than your typical AC/20 can get.
Conversely, a 190mm Rifle shell nets 9 damage against structure, 6 damage against armor, and a 203mm Ebon Jaguar's does 10 per shot...except autocannons are not firing traditional tank shells like Rifles but cased explosive shells of generally smaller size. Rifles in general do significantly more damage to structure in single to few shots compared similar to heaploads of AC rounds. As such, we could reduce total damage output as ACs get bigger.

Exact numbers are not yet determined yet, but given a 100 shot AC/20 dishing 25 and a 12 shot AC/20 dishing 20, a 5-shot could be dishing 19 and a 2-shot dishing 18.
Again I'd be tweaking them.

Terms:

• Minimum Effective Range: The furthest of close ranges at which hitting a fast moving small target becomes difficult to land a full damage rating on.
  
• Optimum Range: Distance at which all projectiles can reliably hit a specific part of a target.
  
• Effective Range: Distance at which all projectiles are likely to at least hit when firing center mass.
  
• Maximum Range: The distance a projectile can ultimately travel, though at this point it is neither reliably accurate or capable of damaging armor.
  
• Rating: A weapon class rating is a loose approximation of damage per unit of time. A weapon achieves its rating when the specified damage is reached within that time limit.
  
• Pushing: Weapons can be pushed passed its rating to deliver more damage ("burst fire MG" rule, Autocannon "rapid fire" rule, fluff about numerous weapon systems and 'weapon overheat' which is not the same as mech overheat). "Pushing" it stresses the weapon and is considered unsafe as it risks weapon lockout due to overheat at best and can also risk jamming, barrel melting, weapon damage, structure damage, explosions, chain reactions and having a bad time.
  
• Mount Type: A distinction is going to be made where weapons can only be mounted on specific body parts to add a degree of realism. Weapons which appear in arms can only be mounted there. Those which mount in torsos can only be mounted there. In cases where the same brand name can appear in both but are visually distinct each other will have separate versions, and particularly small ones will have no restriction in mount type. It goes further than that but this is meant to be brief.
  
• Softpoint:

Factors:

• Range (Beyond range class [short, medium long], there are minimum effective range, optimum range, effective range, and max range.)
  
• Firing rate (How many shots it can produce per second)
  
• Firing type (The way it fires when triggered: single-shot/semi-auto, automatic, burst, ramp-up [think MWO RAC], full cassette consumption)
  
• Down time (The amount of time the weapon system needs to spend before it is ready to fire)
  
• Temperature (How hot the weapon gets per shot, per damage rating, and the threshold for weapon overheat/failure)
  
• Expected Power (How much damage is done per projectile / shots to get rating)
  
• Endurance (The abuse a weapon can take before it becomes non-functional versus destroyed)
  
• Reliability (The stress a weapon can take. A more reliable weapon can be pushed beyond its class's limit with little to no issue, provided its well cared for. An unreliable weapon will have issues when pushed past its class. All weapons can and often will malfunction if pushed too hard.)
  
• Unjam feature (Whether or not it has one and a rough idea of how long it may take; note this cannot fix jams caused by melted barrel. Currently doesn't have a basis, but the more unreliable a weapon is the more likely it'll have this to compensate.)
  
• Repair-ability (affected by its constitution, its mount type, whether it is external or internal [external mounts are easier to break but quicker and easier to fix], the machine it is mounted on, and the Astechs involved.)
  
• Economy (A host of cost saving gimmicks with both positive or negative effects. For an example of each, such as reserving space and tonnage in a mech to collect spent shells in order to recycle them, thereby reducing the cost of ammunition. Or cheap and easy to fix weapons with poor workmanship.)
  
• Mount Type (Location in which a weapon can be mounted.)
  
• Size (The size of softpoint is can fit into. Although this will not affect its actual slot size, a weapon of non-standard size will be both visually bulkier or smaller than others of its class.)

Factors, what affects them?

• Range (affected by barrel type, ammo type, and recoil)
  
• Firing rate (affected by firing chamber type, barrel type, and ammo type)
  
• Firing type (affected by firing chamber type, barrel type, and fluff when available)
  
• Down time (affected by the feed system)
  
• Temperature (primarily affected by the cooling jacket with secondaries including many other elements)
  
• Expected Power (affected by the caliber and ammunition type in use. Non-weapon related factors may impact final results.)
  
• Endurance (the abuse a weapon can take before it becomes non-functional versus destroyed. Affected by its constitution of other components.)
  
• Reliability (affected by its constitution and its fluffed reputation. a more reliable weapon can be pushed to near its class's limit without issue, provided its well cared for. An unreliable weapon may have issues when pushed. )
  
• Unjam feature (Currently doesn't have a basis, but the more unreliable a weapon is the more likely it'll have this to compensate.)
  
• Repairability (affected by its constitution, its mount type, whether it is external or internal [external mounts are easier to break but quicker and easier to fix], the machine it is mounted on, and the Astechs involved.)
  
• Economy (affected by all the above, but also is its own separate feature for implementation of little cost-saving gimmicks at the expense of other aspects of the weapon).
  
• Size (affected by all related above aspects which constitute bulk and proportions in addition to mount type. A bulkier than normal weapon will require a larger softpoint to fit, but will benefit from the extra room. A compact version of the class norm can fit into a smaller softpoint, though it may have some exposure.)

Each factor is affected by elements which make the constitution of the weapon variant.

How are these elements balanced?
First, a comparison: Star Citizen once broadcasted that they were balancing missile types by using a pentagon system. There's a limited number of points to attribute and 5 factors that make the missile (thrust, agility, homing, power and I don't remember the 5th element). This allows them to make a diverse set of brand name missiles. Larger ones have have more points to distribute and smaller ones have less.
Inspired by Battletechnology Magazine's description of the constitution and weight distribution of a PPC, mention of differences between variants and some TRO descriptions of particularly special weapon variants; I've decided to use the weapon's weight distribution as the 'points' and the elements often customized on a weapon in any given FPS title as the factors in what a weapon variant ultimately becomes. Ultimately a weapon's attributes are limited by how the weight is distributed, for example more weight into the barrel could produce a longer or stronger barrel which in turn can affect other factors. Putting more weight into the firing system (firing chamber) can improve things such as firing rate. But there's only so much weight to go around, so any improvement comes with a sacrifice.

This will allow me to create a wide variety of weapons. These will be sourced from fluff when possible. In cases where none is available or known I will be producing 'fillers'. You can contribute to my library of known details about weapon variants in "So, variants again." I will also be sharing my own knowledge (and sources where available) in the thread sometime this week.

A complete list of elements is forthcoming, as will be a few examples of weapons built using this system.

Edited by Koniving, 29 March 2019 - 11:42 AM.

[Koniving]

Nothing is set in stone.
List of attributes / stat effects of each is incomplete and as such left out at this time.
Some elements are self-explanatory. Questions, discussions and ideas are encouraged.

Elements:

• Barrel:
  
  • Normal
    
  • Light-Duty
    
  • Heavy-Duty
    
  • Extended
    
  • Carbine
    
  • Multi-barrel non-rotating
    
  • Multi-barrel revolving

• Firing Chamber Type:
  
  • Mechanically fed traditional Single Chamber
    
  • Single Chamber (Liquid propellant)
    
  • Magnetic (single chamber)
    
  • Multi-Chamber
    
  • Revolving Chamber (gas)
    
  • Revolving Chamber (electric)
    
  • Magnetic (revolving chamber - electric)
    
  • Rail (Gauss)
    
  • Coil (Gauss)

• Feed System:
  
  • Standard Cassette
    
  • Twin Cassette
    
  • Half-size Cassette
    
  • Double-size Cassette
    
  • Revolving Cassette Rack (static)
    
  • Belt-Feed (static)
    
  • Belt-Feed (alternating)
    
  • Twin Belt-Feed

• Cooling Jacket:
  
  • Standard
    
  • Improved
    
  • Poor
    
  • Degrading (Note this is rarely an inherent trait of the weapon. It appears most with certain placements on certain mechs).
    
  • Dedicated Heatsink (Not typical of ballistic weapons; included for completeness)

• Ammunition:
  
  • Caliber
    
    • 12.7mm - 203mm (encompassing every single ballistic weapon that could be mounted on a vehicle or mech)
  • Propellant (if unique/specifically identified)
    
    • Standard
      
    • Liquid (Chemjet Gun AC/20)
      
    • None (Gauss)
  • Type
    
    • HEAP (standard AC)
      
    • Armor Piercing
      
    • Caseless
      
    • Flak
      
    • Flechette
      
    • Incendiary
      
    • Precision
      
    • Tracer (included for completeness, not likely to use)

• Reliability:
  
  • Standard
    
  • Reliable
    
  • Exceptional
    
  • Flimsy
    
  • PGI-made

• Unjam Feature:
  
  • Either it has one or it doesn't
    
  • Backup Feed (incompatible with unjam)

• Endurance: (health)
  
  • Weapon Variant Specific:
    
    • Standard
      
    • Fragile
      
    • Protected (not the same as Armored)
      
    • Armored
      
    • Rugged
  • Mechlab mounting Specific:
    
    • Internal
      
    • Exposed (External; jurry-rigged)

• Ease of Repair:
  
  • Weapon Variant Specific:
    
    • Standard
      
    • Easy to repair
      
    • Difficult to repair
  • Mechlab Placement Specific:
    
    • Easy to Access (automatic for exposed weapons)

• Economy:
  
  • Construction:
    
    • Recent / standard materials
      
    • Fresh from factory
      
    • Premium materials
      
    • Relic / restored
      
    • 'Affordable' materials
      
    • Made by PGI
  • Repair:
    
    • Original Factory Parts
      
    • Counterfeit/Imitation Parts
      
    • Improvised
      
    • Duct Tape
  • Feature:
    
    • Spent Material Reserve Bin (recycle ammo)
      
    • Ammunition conservation

Edited by Koniving, 22 March 2019 - 10:40 PM.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Putting the cart before the horse, aren't we?

[Koniving]

Joshua McEvedy, on 21 March 2019 - 02:38 PM, said:

Putting the cart before the horse, aren't we?

A bit... But we already know that mw5 like HBS battletech is doing a "level up" rpg style of weapon variants.

In vanilla HBS Battletech an AC/20 is an AC/20... An AC/20+ was blatantly better and an AC/20++ was basically an AC/35.

MW5 has a single shot 5 damage on a mech that is supposed to have an 80mm AC/5 as the stock. Since I'm the source material the biggest caliber ac/5 is 120mm and it specifically requires 3 shots to produce 5 damage... We already know the entire system isn't going to be lore friendly. Since I am doing a Battletech Simulator mod overall... The stuff that flat out ignores the source material has gotta go.

It'd be like having sorcery in Deus Ex or Gatling guns in Skyrim (which guns are lore friendly in elder scrolls but not in Skyrim's era) or the US Fielding World War I tanks in World War 5. Or an Atlas with it's missiles on the right torso and ballistic on the left. It is inconsistent and out of place. Can't fix mwo. But can fix mw5.

[The6thMessenger]

Pls mod in a proper RAC.

Also Urbies.

[Koniving]

The6thMessenger, on 21 March 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

Pls mod in a proper RAC.

Also Urbies.

It's on the list. Even a few ideas of how to go about them Everything from Mech Rifles to Arrow IV. This said just cause I will have the ideas and plan and eventually working models, beyond cheating you won't be snagging them as they will be locked to a lore appropriate time..which I suspect will be after pgi releases dlc for Clan+ era... By then they might even have better mechanics to work racs with.
The "so variants again" thread this weekend is going to have a compilation of on own variant details as well as request info from others. Am also looking to collect ideas. For example one time the suggestion of an antibiotic infantry/power armor dedicated small laser having an unpredictable scatter laser effect. It'd still be a standard small laser in any other aspect... But such is a concept worth considering to help fill gaps so long as it can be made to work within the know fluff and not overpowered to the point we wonder why there isn't large laser shotguns.

Urbie is already in MW5: Mercs... But I'll make certain the Urbie cannon makes sense. Imperator-B AC/10, 80mm and a Harmon Light small laser.

Edited by Koniving, 22 March 2019 - 01:56 AM.

[Koniving]

So I found something worth sharing here as part of why I'm doing this:

At some point, PGI went back and edited the Dev Blogs in order to break the link... which considering how old they are, its surprising they would do this in 2018.. Every video link has stopped working. Which is strange, as you'll see below.

But I found an old post where I linked it, and the link still works...meaning it got removed from the original post.


I've tried multiple ways to download and save the video; please someone save this video and reupload it so I could save it or gimme an idea how (in case if PGI outright deletes it) if it might be hidden in my temporary files as my usual youtube video downloaders and file grabbers keep saying its corrupted.

That said:
There's a few things to note here, one of which is absent from the "final" ..."in engine" trailer.
Lets start with what's absent from the final iteration. Listen and note the icon when the PPC is getting ready to fire. It has a bar which brightens as it builds up, and once full it fires. During this there's a sound, e-eeeeeEEEEEEEEYUT. It charges up...and then fires.

The autocannon is a non-stop deterrent against getting close to the Atlas. So much so that it refuses to use its lasers. And this deterrent is so strong that the Warhammer tries to use two separate buildings as a buffer while it deals with the heat buildup of its significantly more powerful per shot "siege weapons", aka the PPCs. The damage over time, however, is just as significant as the much slower firing, longer waiting PPCs.
(We're going to ignore that it calls this an Atlas C and has the Atlas C/K [and I think S2?] exclusive twin 10 tube split LRM-20 rack..yet has an autocannon instead of a Gauss Rifle)...

Aiming LRMs and SRMs deliberately in a bit of a scatter pattern is useful for destroying buildings. Also this is done regardless of regardless of the missiles being torso mounted. These are all traits I'm hoping to be able to figure out how to implement. The hardest would possibly be this behavior for missiles, as I wouldn't have the first clue how to go about it.

I'm bringing it up here because ultimately THIS MW5 is what I wanted to play. This got me into the tabletop (well megamek anyway) where long before I was just a Mechwarrior fan. Breaking down turns into second by second accounts, something often described as part of the fun of playing it with friends was actually one of the neatest things for me and in doing so it gave me an all new understanding of Mechwarrior and the many misconceptions players often have. The digger I deep, the more fascinating it actually gets and its made even better when Megamek's AI shows me new things I didn't even know were possible.

A couple of quick examples:

Spoiler

Like picking up the Piranha as a Corsair Ravager by its head causing damage to the Piranha's pilot... and the pilot's reaction while trapped in the "grapple" is to use its remaining machine guns, risking explosions and worse in order to break free.
Yes, I put the Corsair into Megamek to play with it in digital tabletop and its actually quite a bit of fun. Sure its as broken as can be from a lore perspective, but I like it regardless.

Another example is while using AI players controlling individual mechs in a 3 versus 3 against clones of themselves as a way of testing my original Security Mech designs. The three pilots Ota a good gunner and terrible pilot, Noa a great pilot and melee specialist whose skill with a gun is more likely to shoot her own foot, and some dude that nobody remembers as a middle ground. Here, we'll distinguish them as 1 and 2 for each clone. Noa 1 was defeated when she took on Ota 2 because she couldn't get close to him, and Noa 2 came up behind Noa 1 and grappled to hold Noa 1 still while Ota 2 took her mech out. Noa 1 abandoned the mech and is now on foot. Ota 1 was later able to deal with Noa 2 after NobodyRemembersHisName1 smoke-SRM'd both Noa-2 and Ota-2. Noa2 (also on foot) is captured by Ota1. Ota 2 takes out NobodyRemembers1. This leaves Ota1 versus Ota 2 and NobodyRemembers2. During this, Noa1 is on foot and was being chased by NR2. Ota1 to the rescue, he sprints over and tackles NR2, the two sliding closer to the on-foot Noa1, and after getting back up, she went into his hex and picked her up before he dashed for the woods. This is important as every turn another pair of Smoke SRMs are on their way to blind him. Bullets and SRMs hit trees instead of Ota. Even so Ota refused to fire back...because both of his hands are carrying pilots. Given that Ota was set to take risks, be aggressive, etc., he eventually throws Noa 2, insta-gibbing the prisoner after she hit a tree which freed up his arm to use his MGs. Eventually Ota1 fights it out and though he ultimately fails, he manages a second kill before his mech is torn asunder.

But compared to what we see in Mechwarrior...this is some amazing action hero-type stuff... almost comical when you consider that those security mechs were as slow as Urbanmechs... even if they were quite a bit smaller than MWO's urbanmech.

Now I know recreating that is impractical and impossible for myself to do, but I can at least get the weaponized combat to be closer to what it is fluffed out to be.

[HammerMaster]

Koniving, on 19 March 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Made by PGI

CLASSIC!

Koniving, on 23 March 2019 - 12:32 PM, said:

So I found something worth sharing here as part of why I'm doing this:

At some point, PGI went back and edited the Dev Blogs in order to break the link... which considering how old they are, its surprising they would do this in 2018.. Every video link has stopped working. Which is strange, as you'll see below.

But I found an old post where I linked it, and the link still works...meaning it got removed from the original post.


I've tried multiple ways to download and save the video; please someone save this video and reupload it so I could save it or gimme an idea how (in case if PGI outright deletes it) if it might be hidden in my temporary files as my usual youtube video downloaders and file grabbers keep saying its corrupted.

That said:
There's a few things to note here, one of which is absent from the "final" ..."in engine" trailer.
Lets start with what's absent from the final iteration. Listen and note the icon when the PPC is getting ready to fire. It has a bar which brightens as it builds up, and once full it fires. During this there's a sound, e-eeeeeEEEEEEEEYUT. It charges up...and then fires.

The autocannon is a non-stop deterrent against getting close to the Atlas. So much so that it refuses to use its lasers. And this deterrent is so strong that the Warhammer tries to use two separate buildings as a buffer while it deals with the heat buildup of its significantly more powerful per shot "siege weapons", aka the PPCs. The damage over time, however, is just as significant as the much slower firing, longer waiting PPCs.
(We're going to ignore that it calls this an Atlas C and has the Atlas C/K [and I think S2?] exclusive twin 10 tube split LRM-20 rack..yet has an autocannon instead of a Gauss Rifle)...

Aiming LRMs and SRMs deliberately in a bit of a scatter pattern is useful for destroying buildings. Also this is done regardless of regardless of the missiles being torso mounted. These are all traits I'm hoping to be able to figure out how to implement. The hardest would possibly be this behavior for missiles, as I wouldn't have the first clue how to go about it.

I'm bringing it up here because ultimately THIS MW5 is what I wanted to play. This got me into the tabletop (well megamek anyway) where long before I was just a Mechwarrior fan. Breaking down turns into second by second accounts, something often described as part of the fun of playing it with friends was actually one of the neatest things for me and in doing so it gave me an all new understanding of Mechwarrior and the many misconceptions players often have. The digger I deep, the more fascinating it actually gets and its made even better when Megamek's AI shows me new things I didn't even know were possible.

A couple of quick examples:

Spoiler

Like picking up the Piranha as a Corsair Ravager by its head causing damage to the Piranha's pilot... and the pilot's reaction while trapped in the "grapple" is to use its remaining machine guns, risking explosions and worse in order to break free.
Yes, I put the Corsair into Megamek to play with it in digital tabletop and its actually quite a bit of fun. Sure its as broken as can be from a lore perspective, but I like it regardless.

Another example is while using AI players controlling individual mechs in a 3 versus 3 against clones of themselves as a way of testing my original Security Mech designs. The three pilots Ota a good gunner and terrible pilot, Noa a great pilot and melee specialist whose skill with a gun is more likely to shoot her own foot, and some dude that nobody remembers as a middle ground. Here, we'll distinguish them as 1 and 2 for each clone. Noa 1 was defeated when she took on Ota 2 because she couldn't get close to him, and Noa 2 came up behind Noa 1 and grappled to hold Noa 1 still while Ota 2 took her mech out. Noa 1 abandoned the mech and is now on foot. Ota 1 was later able to deal with Noa 2 after NobodyRemembersHisName1 smoke-SRM'd both Noa-2 and Ota-2. Noa2 (also on foot) is captured by Ota1. Ota 2 takes out NobodyRemembers1. This leaves Ota1 versus Ota 2 and NobodyRemembers2. During this, Noa1 is on foot and was being chased by NR2. Ota1 to the rescue, he sprints over and tackles NR2, the two sliding closer to the on-foot Noa1, and after getting back up, she went into his hex and picked her up before he dashed for the woods. This is important as every turn another pair of Smoke SRMs are on their way to blind him. Bullets and SRMs hit trees instead of Ota. Even so Ota refused to fire back...because both of his hands are carrying pilots. Given that Ota was set to take risks, be aggressive, etc., he eventually throws Noa 2, insta-gibbing the prisoner after she hit a tree which freed up his arm to use his MGs. Eventually Ota1 fights it out and though he ultimately fails, he manages a second kill before his mech is torn asunder.

But compared to what we see in Mechwarrior...this is some amazing action hero-type stuff... almost comical when you consider that those security mechs were as slow as Urbanmechs... even if they were quite a bit smaller than MWO's urbanmech.

Now I know recreating that is impractical and impossible for myself to do, but I can at least get the weaponized combat to be closer to what it is fluffed out to be.

THATS THE ONE I WAS TELLING YOU ABOUT WITH SKINNY ATLAS!
Those visuals even in black and white I WOULD PLAY NOW!

Edited by HammerMaster, 23 March 2019 - 12:52 PM.

[Koniving]

HammerMaster, on 23 March 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

THATS THE ONE I WAS TELLING YOU ABOUT WITH SKINNY ATLAS!

I know. I found it on a page about weapon convergence of all places.

[HammerMaster]

https://www.onlinevi...utube-converter
try this?

Koniving, on 23 March 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

I know. I found it on a page about weapon convergence of all places.

Ya that one has so much more character than the Duplo Blocks one we have now.

Edited by HammerMaster, 23 March 2019 - 01:16 PM.

[Koniving]

So someone correct me if they get something else, but I get 2 to 3 per second. I was hoping it was slightly faster. At 3 per second and 100mm, "pushing" this AC would have to work similar to an UltraAC's "ultra-mode" to double the rate of fire...something I want to keep unique to Ultra ACs. Otherwise to net the required shots, it'd take 4 seconds...which is within the rating but...leaves like no room to 'push' the gun.

Shots per second on the video from the Atlas.

[Koniving]

Before I continue, there's three quick things to note:
For anyone that hasn't followed things I've posted... some time ago I came up with an expansion on the relatively simplified BT/MW heat system in order to better suit what the lore proposes.
The idea is to be able to encompass all those mentions of overheating machine guns and ACs we see all over the TROs and novels, those lasers that burn out their crystal and cease to function, the constant rain of LRMs that leads to tubes being so hot missiles explode sitting in that heat...
Battletech fluff is littered with it, but where is it? Its never been in an MWO before. But there's more than that, recently in MWO's forums we have complaints about side torso heat spikes (which isn't a heat spike, you lose the threshold and the bigger hit is all the heatsinks you lose too as the engine is sort of a slap on the wrist).. "Magic heat" they say. Well this expanded heat system that I came up with years ago could actually let you keep track as weapon heat, engine heat, general heat and heatsinks are tracked independently.

The second quick thing is that the exact numbers are not set in stone (especially ranges as these are rough estimations based on the difficulty of tracking a moving 6x3 meter target while handling recoil and time) and the exact distribution of "weight points" for lack of a better term is not exactly concrete at the moment. Even still, I want to get some examples of what this concept is capable of out as quickly as possible as a proof of concept.

Third, there's ranges. Here, instead of simply short to long I'm listing minimum to max. Allow me to address "Minimum" range for a moment. This won't be PGI's "magic no damage" range. Not at all. Unlike MWO and many unrealistic shooters, the reason minimum range exists in Battletech is bullets don't curve.

You can't get a 75 degree curve from the barrel into a target that's too damn close from a real gun or a proper simulator. That's why minimum accurate range exists for weapons with an offset between its origin and the point of aim.

Expanding on this, Optimum Range is defined by me as the range in which you can land every projectile onto the intended section of a moving target approximately 6 meters long in any direction (tall, long, wide, whatever).
Effective range is defined as the distance in which all projectiles can hit that same 6 meter rectangular target while aiming center mass and hit with every shell but without precision.
Maximum Range at the moment is going to be the maximum range at which a shell hitting BAR-10 armor will do expected damage. Beyond that point any damage dealt will have diminishing returns. I may actually go with the range at which the shell will 'hit the ground' when fired perpendicular with the ground...clearly one of the biggest issues in interpretation is how to define what is being interpreted.
Note that it is my intention that movement will affect accuracy, I refuse to have MWO's "magic floating camera aim" in MW5: Mercs.

And finally: A key difference you may notice between Cassette and Belt-fed weapons is that belt-fed autocannons do not have any down time (except to swap belts in belt-fed Alternating). As such belt fed weapons tend to be automatic (with semi-auto possible by tapping the fire key) but slower to yield final results without enhancements. Meanwhile cassette fed can be fired in any number of ways but generally produce damage in shorter amounts of time. Of course there are many variables at play here.
--------------

Last time I was writing this I actually started with the Whirlwind/L, but finding that video has me wanting to start with the Atlas's Deathgiver. That was, until I discovered that despite what I've read in the past...the Deathgiver isn't the default weapon for the Atlas, the Defiance Mech Hunter is. When I saw this change on Sarna I went through the TROs and while most don't mention the brand name, 3025 does in fact point out the Defiance Mech Hunter...with no specifics about it. Frustrated I continued to hunt.

Its co-conspirator, the Rommel, also fails to mention caliber or details. Sarna of course doesn't help, it says "a single shot" but it does that with a lot of weapons, including 120mm guns. Digging up Rommel's data brought about some fun things: Defiance Mech Killer Type T on the Patton and the Mech Hunter on the Rommel are both compact ACs. It goes into great detail about the LRMs...7.7. After quite a bit of hunting with nothing concrete, I went to look at an old fan-made image that first led me to consider variants in the first place.


I have long since forgotten who actually made the original image and I have since found out that the numbers are made up beyond the Crusher.. Some of its stuff is unusable due to conflicts with actual fluff or in the case of the Chemjet Gun, its probably got too much damage to work with how I'm balancing the weapon systems.. But what it has for the Defiance Mech Hunter falls in line with something else; the Tomodzuru Mount Type 20, which is a 180mm AC/20 that even without the fluff has a major issue... a blatant lack of available ammunition in certain regions of space, and yet its still used for a few hundred years after its plant is destroyed. If I use the original image creator's number for the per cassette (rating) shot count and damage per shot, then not only does it fit matching descriptions of what "one shot" can do between the old Komiyaba Type VII chassis Hunchback's Tomodzuru and the Rommel's Defiance Mech Hunter.. but it gives us something else that some players would probably miss after this mod is installed, a hefty punch in a single shot.

Important: To achieve the rating of a damage class, a weapon must 1) be able to achieve a loose approximation of the expected damage class in no greater than 5 seconds. 2) It must be capable of being ready to go again within 10 seconds.
It is worth noting that even the worst weapons in a class still surpass this to some degree.


This said, lets begin and assume that the weapon in the video is the Deathgiver 100mm. (Moved lower to make it easier to edit.)

Edited by Koniving, 29 March 2019 - 01:02 PM.

[Koniving]

Side note:
Wonder how difficult this Unreal Engine update would be to slip in...

[Karl Streiger]

Great read - lots of text and maybe I can not process that much input, but you could indeed drop the idea for the ChemSet for a BattleMech - I know in some TRO the Chemset is mounted on a Mech, maybe it was part of the variants but this is highly unlikely.
Its a binary propellant (liquide) solution - so you don't have a case to be dropped - no case = more heat. Although this would be a nice characteristic - 3 rounds each 8 points of damage but 10 instead of 7 heat... although its much simpler to convert CBT into a 1d100 system (2 10 sided dice) first.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 25 March 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

Great read - lots of text and maybe I can not process that much input, but you could indeed drop the idea for the ChemSet for a BattleMech - I know in some TRO the Chemset is mounted on a Mech, maybe it was part of the variants but this is highly unlikely.
Its a binary propellant (liquide) solution - so you don't have a case to be dropped - no case = more heat. Although this would be a nice characteristic - 3 rounds each 8 points of damage but 10 instead of 7 heat... although its much simpler to convert CBT into a 1d100 system (2 10 sided dice) first.

The Chemjet will certainly be posted during the week. I think for that, given the need to 'fill it' to get range, and how incredibly fun my unreleased HBS Battletech mod with it is (as it is set to indirect fire capable and the tank using it does in fact use it as a mortar when it wants), I'm going to let it have the full 20 damage, but not let it push or "overclock the gun" as one of my friends put it. Might let it overfill the liquid propellant to do some extra damage to make up for it, but basically the trade off is damage in a short period of time.

So while the Defiance Mech Hunter might let you get 19 damage in 2.5 seconds.. the Chemjet per shot is going to be a lot more powerful (at least 5 damage).. but probably gonna take longer to net the full 20(+), and not possibly be able to compete with the ultras as most other AC/20s could do (with the risks associated with Battletech's rapid fire autocannons).

If Demolishers and their cousins are in MW5, you'll be able to find them. HBS Battletech already had the basic AI necessary to use it thanks to every weapon having a "indirect fire" tick to switch to yes or no. Hope MW5's AI won't get confused when it has an AC/20 and the option to fire indirectly like a mortar.

[Koniving]

Relics

Like Internet Explorer, we sometimes forget about these.

AC/20
Deathgiver (100mm)

Spoiler

Some Fluff: Its been so long since I read Heir of the Dragon, I haven't got any exact lines. All I remember is it is 100mm and automatic.
Source: Heir to the Dragon
Manufacturer: Relic, Star League (Seriously nothing in Battletech attributes where the Deathgiver series came from, as such I'm referring to it as a Star League relic)
Rarity: Rare
Featured on: Atlas.

The Elements:
Barrel type: Standard
Firing chamber: Single Feed
Feed type: Belt (Static)
Cooling Jacket: Standard
Ammunition: 100mm HEAP (Note: I'm always going to put HEAP here as a default, I'm not going to pre-decide which standard ACs can and can't use special ammo).
Unjam Feature: None

Factors:
Range:
. Minimum-Effective: 5 meters
. Optimum Range: ?? meters
. Effective Range: ?? meters
. Maximum Range: ?? meters
Firing Rate: 4 shells per second (slightly faster than the video). 4 seconds to reach rated damage.
Firing Type: Automatic (Any automatic weapon can naturally be fired semi-automatically if one chose.)
Downtime: None, belt-fed.
Temperature: 0.4 heat per shell. 6.4 heat per rating. Overheat: 11.8
Expected Power: 1.25 damage per shell. 16 shells to net rating. 80 shells per ton of ammunition.
Endurance: Rugged (a destroyed slot has a 50% chance of disabling it or continuing to function with a slight impediment).
Reliability: Reliable (given its slow rate of fire, it can easily overclock its rating with little issue and keep going and going and going like the energizer bunny. It will eventually overheat though; everything does at some point.)
Ease of repair: Standard
Mount Type: Torso (Lower Torso) (Torso Module) <--Nonsense for me later on.
Size: Compact.

Variant thoughts: Despite just being called Deathgiver, this version's unique traits from the one on the King Crab needs to be set apart so I have decided to refer to this as the "Deathgiver Automatic" or DGA for short. I'm so great with names, I know (sarcasm).

This is an area-of-denial weapon. A suppression gun. Anything big enough to keep getting pelted by it may as well think of it like poison draining away at them for as long as they're dumb enough to be in range. Beyond this it should be very useful against smaller targets as well as keeping targets at bay. Though the time this weapon requires to reach its rating is painfully long, it lacks the down time of most autocannon models. Its individual shells are among the more powerful of smaller class weapons and its steady rate makes it impossible to dodge for long. It has a reasonably good rate of fire with low heat for what it is. The issue with firing this pretty continuously isn't really one with heat or overheating so much as one would only get 20 seconds of continuous fire per ton of ammunition which is sub-ideal for a suppression weapon.
Deathgiver Auto's primary issue with its accurate range is the factor of time. Keeping a weapon on a moving target of about 6 meters is not easy. But nothing says you have to fire continuously, you could opt instead to fire in small spurts or just single shots, in which the actual effective range will be much better.

AC/20
Deathgiver (King Crab, 120mm)

Spoiler

"Idle minds are Davion Tools", Colonel Linda McDonald, Eleventh Arcturan Guards, pilot of the first King Crab to appear in the novels.
Some Fluff: The King Crab's primary weapons are two massive Deathgiver Autocannon/20s, among the most powerful BattleMech weapons ever created. Each arm carries one of these massive weapons, and they are fed by two tons of ammo split between the side torsos. The firepower of these weapons is enough to destroy a medium 'Mech in one salvo. (Sarna, citing Tech Readout 2750)
More Fluff: "These are twin Deathgiver Autocannon/20s, among the most potent weapons ever created." (Tech Readout 2750)
(Was going to put in a line from Storm of Fate's Deathgiver use, but despite being a KGC000, McDonald's AC/20s were replaced with Imperator D ACs like a KGC-0000, firing streams pale in comparison that are inferior to Victor Davion's Daishi's 12cm autocannons.)
Source: Listed individually above.
Manufacturer: Unknown / Relic of Star League Era
Rarity: Nearly extinct
Featured on: King Crab 000 (compatible with any King Crab; exclusive to King Crab.)

The Elements:
Barrel type: Multi-barrel - Revolving (3 barrels)
Firing chamber: Revolving Chamber (Gas)
Feed type: Cassette, 12 shells/cassette, 5 cassettes/ton
Cooling Jacket: Standard
Ammunition: 120mm HEAP (Depleted Uranium-tipped; just a fluffed tidbit) 60 shells/ton.
Unjam Feature: Yes. 2-6 seconds. (Special note: King Crab's claws will pinch three times during each unjam attempt. This same pinch is also required to feed the first burst into a new cassette.)

Factors:
Range:
. Minimum-Effective: 5 meters
. Optimum Range: ??? meters (would be listed for four rapid 3-shell bursts) (Opted to not struggle with pre-loading these since I know they will change later anyway).
. Effective Range: ??? meters (four rapid 3-shell bursts)
. Maximum Range: ???
Firing Rate: 2 bursts per second
Firing Type: Burst fire (3 shells per burst)
Downtime: 5 seconds
Temperature: 0.667 heat per shell (2 heat per burst). 8 heat per rating. Overheat: 12.
Expected Power: 1.67 damage per shell. 12 shells to get rating. 60 shells per ton.
Endurance: Protected
Reliability: Standard
Ease of repair: Difficult (any repair will be 'improvised')
Mount Type: Arm-Special (unique to King Crabs).
Size: ?

Variant Thoughts: In the short story "The Hangar Queen's Gambit", the pivotal realization that in the hypothetical situation you're screwed no matter what is dependent upon the big difference between the othewise visually identical Star League King Crab KGC-000 and the KGC-0000 made later. This key difference is its weapons. The KGC-000's Death Givers have a terrifyingly quick burst that snaps in "an instant" for devastating damage and that two snaps can rip any cockpit open "in a second." Devastating is comical when you think of tabletop and then compare that 120mm takes 3 shots to do 5 damage (though with my mod, that would be devastating damage), but two snaps to rip a cockpit open (10 damage against 9 armor) makes perfect sense. After this mod, however, a weapon rapidly doing 5 damage (or the equivalent of it; I'm aware that games don't like decimal health point systems) is going to be very threatening. Armor to damage ratio is going to be 1:1 with 16 per ton standard armor instead of 32 per ton, a single AC/20 can pop off any cockpit and sever some limbs.

Anyway, later King Crabs fire "streams," and even the one Colonel McDonald (...why am I picturing the clown?!) uses also fires streams from an Imperator D. As such the big defining features of the Deathgiver for the King Crab are burst fire, rapid damage delivery and one other thing: The 'bluff'. You don't know when a King Crab is reloading or bluffing, as such it was important to make sure that the King Crab got several bursts out of a cassette and a lengthy reload time in which the claws will be closed. When you face this thing, I want you to be paranoid about when it will be ready to fire again. I want you to be faked out if the claws pinch, to think you're safe when the claws close just to be caught off guard and have a huge chunk of your armor ripped away in a snap. I want a true, Star League original King Crab to be the kind of thing that makes you wish you had brown pants so only you would know what just did. And if you think that fear is great, imagine what enemy Aces could do once I get to making those...

This weapon is unique, in that aside from the Atlas reference, no other mech has ever used a Deathgiver and even then it was nothing like this one. As such this weapon will not be one that you can place on any other mech, although all King Crabs will be compatible with it. Thankfully 12cm (120mm) AC/20s are a dime a dozen so you won't need to, but none will ever have firepower this "snappy."

Nissan/Komiyaba General Industries

"Komiyaba? Yeah...they're long gone."

"We used to make guns? BIG GUNS!? What hap--oh, right, the Davions got jealous of our autocannons."

AC/20
Tomodzuru Mount Type 20 (180mm)

Spoiler

Some Fluff: "The Hunchback is armed for short- to medium-range combat. At medium ranges, its combined armament of two lchiba 2000 medium lasers and its massive Tomodzuru Type 20 autocannon mount can rip through even the heaviest armor." "Unfortunately, its large autocannon creates so much heat when fired that a pilot must take great care to avoid overheating."(TRO 3025 [original and revised])
More Fluff: "During the battle of Pike IV in 3012, Right'sMedium Lance of Pasquesi's Battalion led the assault on the city of Paramus. The two Hunchbacks of the unit were first into the city and began to tear apart the light 'Mechs left as a screen by the 42nd Armored Lightning Regiment. As Pasquesi's assault lances came charging into the central business district, they saw the two Hunchbacks of Right's Lance in a fistfight with two Crusaders. A third Crusader leaned drunkenly against a skyscraper, its center torso shot through. Before Pasquesi's heavy 'Mechs could come to the aid of the Hunchbacks, the 'Mechs finished off both their adversaries. One Crusader had a punched-in head section, and the right leg of the other had been ripped off with a pointblank autocannon shot. (TRO 3025)
Yet More Fluff: (Hunt for that Hunchback short story...BattleTechnology? Citytech?)
Source: Listed individually above.
Manufacturer: Komiyaba/Nissan.
Rarity: 3015: Rather uncommon. 3040: Nearly extinct.
Highest Concentration: Periphery near Draconian Space, among Draconian militaries and Davion Wealth.
Featured on: Hunchback 4G (Komiyaba Type VII chassis)

The Elements:
Barrel Type: Carbine
Firing chamber: Revolving Chamber (gas)
Feed type: Cassette, 5 shells/cassette (5 cassettes/ton)
Cooling Jacket: Poor
Ammunition: 180mm HEAP 25 shells/ton
Unjam Feature: None

Factors:
Range:
. Minimum-Effective: 10 meters (explosive reasons)
. Optimum Range: ? meters
. Effective Range: ? meters
. Maximum Range: ? meters
Firing Rate: 3.5 shells per second
Firing Type: Semi-Automatic
Downtime: 4 seconds
Temperature: 1.6 heat per shell. 8 heat per rating. Overheat: 11.
Expected Power: 3.8 damage per shell. 5.26 shells to get rating. (In other words this gun is going to fall short of 20 damage as it'll only net 19 damage per rating).
Endurance: Rugged
Reliability: Standard
Ease of repair: Difficult (parts no longer manufactured)
Mount Type: Torso (Upper Torso) (Torso Module) <--Nonsense for me later on.
Size: standard.

Hunchback (Komiyaba Type VII) Thoughts: The Komiyaba Type VII and its later rehash the Kali-Yama Crucis Mark V copy have a number of distinctive differences that I will try to reflect within the game through minor visual edits and little tweaks to their setup. The Komiyaba Type VII is smaller, has a much bigger AC/20, and any variants out there are refits of the 4G...simply field mods. Its "classic" replacement (the Crucis V) some 500+ years later after the original was first produced has many modern innovations...and many problems...

Variant Thoughts: This is an old relic that must be found / acquired from an enemy Hunchback 4G or at a couple of locations close to where the and will progressively be harder to find as the yeas go on (though if you find a true 4G in your first couple of 'years', you're bound to actually see one). Most 4G Hunchbacks have become swaybacks dropping this gun in favor of lasers or missiles or a smaller AC. So finding one of these should be considered a lucky day. Assuming you can find a straight Hunchback 4G before 3030, it will have a Tomodzuru. Though unless it has story significance, the chances of finding a genuine Hunchback 4G is gonna be harder after my mod. But a few places will certainly have increased likelihood to field them.

The Tomodozuru may be chambering a similar round as the Defiance Mech Hunter, this AC/20 delivers its damage in less than 1.5 seconds as opposed to 2.5 seconds. It also does this with quite a bit less heat due to having a cooling jacket. However, the Defiance is ready to fire in again in 2 seconds. Tomodzuru needs nearly thrice as long. But, once reloaded it can easily spew another load where the Mech Hunter will easily overheat if rushed. Where the tomodzuru will really shine is in urban environments with close quarters combat. Massive rapid damage followed by using structures as cover against counter attack, with plenty of time to reload before coming back to deliver the killing blow.

Tomodzuru's barrel is very short. It will suffer heavily in ranged engagements. The barrel, caliber and the rate of fire leaves a lot of kick and the spread from that recoil will make it nearly worthless at medium-long range without giving up the only advantages it has.

Circa 3030, you'll face the "New" Hunchbacks made with the Crucis Mark V chassis. These do not carry the Tomodzuru and instead carry the Kali-Yama Big Bore, and by 3040 the Tomodzuru becomes so rare it could be considered extinct. Be sure to get yours well before as from 3035 onward it'll be hard.

Defiance Industries

"Stand in Defiance"

AC/20
Defiance Mech Hunter (180mm)

Spoiler

Some Fluff: The Atlas was the first mech to ever mount such a large and devastating weapon. The mere threat of such a large autocannon is often enough to send some mechs 'scurrying. The weapon's only problem is that it lacks a cooling jacket and can overheat easily." (TRO 3025)
More Fluff: Defiance Industries redesigned a version of their Killer Type T autocannon on the Patton and the Defiance Mech Hunter on the Rommel, to fit the low turreted new model (chassis/base; the two tanks use the same basic chassis) (TRO 3026)
Yet More Fluff: The Rommel's main weapon is a 'Class 20' autocannon, with 15 rounds (reloads) of ammunition. (TRO 3026)
The Situation is Only Made Worse with the addition of Yet More Fluff: The Rommel uses a single Defiance 'Mech Hunter Autocannon/20 as its main armament. Able to cripple light and medium 'Mechs with a single well-placed shot from the main gun (Sarna)
Source: Listed individually above.
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries
Featured on: Atlas, Rommel (tank), Lightning (assuming the aircraft; the aircraft's default AC/20 is a different brand but this weapon is shipped to that plant for that aircraft according to Objective Raids).

The Elements:
Barrel type: Heavy-Duty (strong resistance to melting from overheating)
Firing chamber: Single Feed
Feed type: Cassette, 5 shells/cassette
Cooling Jacket: None
Ammunition: 180mm HEAP
Unjam Feature: None

Factors:
Range:
. Minimum-Effective: 5 meters
. Optimum Range: ?? meters
. Effective Range: ?? meters
. Maximum Range: ?? meters
Firing Rate: 2 shells per second, 3.5 seconds to reach 19 damage.
Firing Type: Semi-Automatic
Downtime: 2 seconds
Temperature: 1.8 heat per shell. 9 heat per rating. Overheat: 11.
Expected Power: 3.8 damage per shell. 5.26 shells to get rating. (In other words this gun is going to fall short of 20 damage). 25 shells per ton of ammo.
Endurance: Standard
Reliability: Poor.
Ease of repair: Standard
Mount Type: Torso (Lower Torso) (Torso Module) <--Nonsense for me later on.
Size: Standard.

Variant Thoughts: Defiance Mech Hunter is being made to have similarities to the powerful but rare Tomodzuru Autocannon. Both use similar if not identical ammunition, both are among the largest calibers to exist in the Inner Sphere. Both require 5 shots to net their intended rating.

Where they differ is how quickly and how much down time comes of it. The DMH nets its rating in 3.5 seconds and is ready to fire again in just two seconds (+ an additional 2 for each body part the ammunition needs to traverse through). Meanwhile the ancient but now extinct competitor can achieve it in less than 1.5 seconds, but is down for at least five seconds.

Unfortunately, while the weapon is reloaded and ready to go so quickly, the weapon can never seem to cool off quick enough. Rather than use safety as a reason to wrestle control away from the pilot to protect the weapon, Defiance Industries chose instead to put destiny into the hands of the pilot, play it safe or take the risk? "Just another way to stand in Defiance."

By rule of physics, larger projectiles have more propellant and as such also get better overall range. But with that longer range comes a heftier kick which when trying to pump out all that firepower as quickly as possible and fight the kick, the ability to land everything on the same spot is going right out the window. The Atlas may handle this kick better than a Rommel. But one must choose between going for long range like an AC/5 at significantly reduced DPS to land those long range pot-shots or to use an automatic like it was intended.

General Motors

"Finding New Roads Since 1908"

AC/5
GM WHIRLWIND/5 (120mm)

Spoiler

NOTE: This is an AC/5 hidden among AC/20s.
Some Fluff: Famously mounted on the General Motors Marauder BattleMech, this autocannon fires 120mm shells in three round bursts. (Sarna.net AC/5)
Fluff: "The Marauder's secondary armament, the GM Whirlwind, was added almost as an afterthought. Its linkage to the chassis has been troublesome and the gun itself tends to be rather temperamental, often refusing to function at crucial moments." (TRO 3025 original)
Fluff: Firing rate (Battletechnology)
Fluff: Ranges, etc: https://web.archive....otors_Whirlwind (Old pre-conslidated GM Whirlwind page)
Source: Listed individually above.
Manufacturer: General Motors
Featured on: Marauder, Condor (combat hover), Wolverine, Scorpion (tank), Vedette (tank) and many others

The Elements:
Barrel Type: Varies (Marauder version carries an extended barrel, Wolverine's version has a carbine)
Firing chamber: Standard
Feed type: Cassette, 3 shells/cassette standard (20 cassettes/ton), some carry double cassettes (6 shells/cassette, 10 cassettes/ton).
Cooling Jacket: Standard
Ammunition: 120mm HEAP. 60 shells/ton.
Unjam Feature: Maybe?

Factors:
Range: (taken from the old GM Whirlwind/5 page; had to use the Waybackmachine to get them; the 840 is somewhat of a middle ground between medium and long range)
. Minimum-Effective: 90 meters (30 with carbine)
. Optimum Range: 660 meters
. Effective Range: 840 meters
. Maximum Range: 1350 meters
Firing Rate: 3.5 shells per second
Firing Type: Semi-Automatic
Downtime: 4 seconds (std) 6 seconds (extended)
Temperature: 0.33 heat per shell. 1 heat per rating. Overheat: 2
Expected Power: 1.67 damage per shell. 3 shells to get rating.
Endurance: Standard
Reliability: Standard; Poor (Marauder 3 or earlier only).
Ease of repair: Standard
Mount Type: Multiple (several variations exist)
Size: Standard (Compact for some such as Wolverine's hand-held one)

Variant Thoughts: The GM Whirlwind/5 is a common weapon in current production used in many different vehicles and Mechs with different mount types and at least 2 sub-variants. It delivers good damage at the high end of the Class 5 spectrum. This is an anti-armor weapon and would find poor use against less significant targets. Ammunition of the 120mm variety is easy to find. The Whirlwind's primary issue is that the weapon the "calm after the storm", where the weapon's already painfully slow firing rate for its class is met with an even slower reload time. Such cannot be helped however as the weapon has a low thermal tolerance. (Otherwise this would need insane reload times or to break the fluffed firing rate or the commonly accepted 3 shells to make 5 damage in order to keep it from being an 8 ton AC/20).

Again remember numbers are not set in stone, what's most likely going to change (almost definitely) will be range.

Reading the original TRO 3025 brings up a funny fact: Wolverine - "As a medium recon vehicle it does not have good armor which is as it should be." It, matter-of-factly, has the best armor of every existing IS medium mech for over 300 years... Its stock amount of armor points is actually outright superior to many heavy mechs as well.

AC/2
GM Whirlwind/L

Spoiler

Placeholder

Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated

"Kali-Yama Industries, equipping the Free Worlds one hand at a time."

AC/20
Kali-Yama Big Bore

Spoiler

AC/10
Kali-Yama Class 10 (seriously this otherwise unnamed but over-fluffed spray-and-pray AC/10 makes me want to call it the Death Blossom, but that apparently is already used by Kali-Yama's LRMs.... Anyone got a fitting name for it?)

Spoiler

Quikcell

No refunds

Quikcell's logo changes depending on which area of space it is in, with the ruling house's first letter in the center and the pride of only serving that faction... for that branch...and even then those branches sell to periphery nations and even rival subfactions!

AC/20
Crusher Super Heavy

Spoiler

Some Fluff:
Manufacturer: Quikcell
Featured on: Hetzer

The Elements:
Barrel Type: Single, Carbine
Firing chamber: Revolving chamber (gas) (unreliable version will have a 25% chance of failing mid-fire).
Feed type: Cassette, 10 shells/cassette, 5 cassettes/ton
Cooling Jacket: Standard
Ammunition: 150mm Hyper Velocity High Explosive Slugs (HVHE)
Unjam Feature: Surprisingly, 2 seconds.

Factors:
Range:
Minimum-Effective: 10 meters
Optimum Range: ? meters Incredibly short [immense recoil will scatter the shells]
Effective Range: ? meters Decently medium [shells travel really fast]
Maximum Range: ? meters [shells will be able to damage things over a surprisingly long range, but accuracy at a fraction of these ranges is beyond any hope].
Firing Rate: 10 shells in 2.5 seconds.
Firing Type: Cassette-depletion (spends the entire cassette in a ten round burst; except if it randomly fails to fire a shell)
Downtime: 3 seconds
Temperature: 0.7 heat per shell. 7 heat per rating. Overheat: 10
Expected Power: 2 damage per shell. 10 shells to get rating.
Endurance: Poor
Reliability: "Reliable" (or Poor, 50/50 chance whenever one is acquired).
Ease of repair: Easy (So simple that unskilled temp labor can do it)
Mount Type: Upper Arm or Lower Arm-no-hand-actuator
Size: Standard.
Hetzer thoughts: This little gun-on-wheels is built on a basic truck chassis. I assume a fairly heavy duty one considering that most trucks don't intend to haul 45 tons. The armor given to the truck chassis is a single large piece, leaving it somewhat subpar. But what really gets me is that this was supposed to be a field artillery platform...and so they load it with an AC/20 to perform that artillery function. It even runs a special ammunition.

Variant Thoughts: The Crusher SH is perhaps one of the most well known and quoted AC/20s in Battletech lore. For some reason, the reputation of the company producing them somehow doesn't swing along for the ride.

The manufacturer for starters is known for using sub-par materials when exporting its products. If you find a Quikscell product, consider which branch manufacturered it and which faction you acquired it from. If it was exported, chances are its faulty. If it was produced locally and taken from local forces, you might have something better. Sub-par versions may 'stick' during a burst, requiring an unjam attempt to remedy it. Whatever shells were left will fire in the next time the trigger is pulled.

As a simple design, the weapon fires its entire cassette in a single pull of the trigger. The recoil and the light weight of the Hetzer allows the shots to spread over a small area, so when fired at an arc the shells can function as extremely inaccurate artillery. This almost "scatter shot" burst will fly off into multiple directions when fired from any position other than braced (crouching).
Though blatantly inaccurate as it could possibly be, the shells will feature an uncanny long range. This may allow it to destroy infantry, vehicular clusters, or buildings at hefty ranges.

Edited by Koniving, 07 April 2019 - 01:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Non-standard ACs will be featured here
(LBX, Ultra)
Rifle, etc.

Edited by Koniving, 07 April 2019 - 01:26 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Did you use the Corps GunsGunsGuns RuleBook? Your Whirlwind example strangely has the 'correct' - 'safe' RateOf Fire as my Sheet when running the numbers.
3.5 rounds per second with 59% rate of fire. Theoretical maximum with critical jam chance of 3% would be 5.9 (Ultra?)

for the death-giver you might alter the ammunition by using less propellant - instead of a long barrel you use a Thre Snub-Barrels - this might drop the speed by several hundred meter per second (the Whirlwind in my example get whooping 3.5km/s the DeathGiver might only achieve 2.6km/s)

A Clip might be 90 rounds - (less propellant) - safe rate of fire could be 15 rounds per second, so the full clip might need 6 seconds. Or you alter the fire pattern into your mentioned burst fire but each burst with a higher rate of fire- so 30 rounds might need only 1.2 seconds - so the gun could fire 1.2 x 30 rounds 1.2 moving to the second clip chamber again 30 rounds, switch and again 30 rounds. (Ok would be a kind of typewriter magazine)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 March 2019 - 03:15 AM.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2019 - 03:15 AM, said:

Did you use the Corps GunsGunsGuns RuleBook? Your Whirlwind example strangely has the 'correct' - 'safe' RateOf Fire as my Sheet when running the numbers.
3.5 rounds per second with 59% rate of fire. Theoretical maximum with critical jam chance of 3% would be 5.9 (Ultra?)

GM Whirlwind/5: "The RPG Stats are derivative using the Infantry Platoon Creation Rules for the Damage Stats, and doing a formulaic extrapolation from 180 meters at Short Range to the MechWarrior, Third Edition ranges incorporating the +1 modifier that a "Regular" MechWarrior Starts at in the RPG in addition to the +2 bonus that Combat Vehicles and BattleMechs get because they automatically carry the equivalent of an Advanced Fire Control system."

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for the death-giver you might alter the ammunition by using less propellant - instead of a long barrel you use a Three Snub-Barrels - this might drop the speed by several hundred meter per second (the Whirlwind in my example get whooping 3.5km/s the DeathGiver might only achieve 2.6km/s)

Which Deathgiver? The King Crab one got a carbine barrel (heavy duty so it won't melt and to consume some of the weight), though since it isn't really shown in art I could probably give it some extra barrels. Was opting out of it as I was thinking of doing that with the Imperator D. Though since the Imperator D needs a slower, steadier firing rate I could probably do the carbine barrel for it.

Far as autocannons, in searching through existing ones, I'm seeing muzzle velocities of 1.1 km/s and less.
Of course, we don't really make much in the way of autocannons beyond 60mm in real life.

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A Clip might be 90 rounds - (less propellant) - safe rate of fire could be 15 rounds per second, so the full clip might need 6 seconds. Or you alter the fire pattern into your mentioned burst fire but each burst with a higher rate of fire- so 30 rounds might need only 1.2 seconds - so the gun could fire 1.2 x 30 rounds 1.2 moving to the second clip chamber again 30 rounds, switch and again 30 rounds. (Ok would be a kind of typewriter magazine)

At this point I've lost which weapon we're talking about...

The Deathgiver Auto? At the current damage (that'll be for the most part universal) it needs 16 to net its 20 damage.

[Karl Streiger]

Ah, np.
What I wanted to say without different loading mechanism (I would count gast, revolver or gatling all as multi barrel for simplicity) you can not exceed the rate of fire of the whirlwind by using 120mm as caliber.
Theoretical rate of fire for the 120mm (13kg per cartridge (semi-combustible, with metal base, high energy propellant- electric fuzed, small caliber bullet with sabot) is 6 rounds per second. (Sure it's the abstract G3 rules but some examples using this systems showed almost the same weight, muzzle energy or RoF of real weapons)

So when you design a AC20 with 120mm you can not fire the same rounds from a single barrel and have manageable volume if fire. Ok the absolute minimum for the AC20 would be 20kg per second...
Stops ... blinks...oh hell I have a freaking error in my calculation and did not even recognize it.... with 13kg per shell the 3 round burst for the Whirlwind works but why didn't i realize that 90rounds are complete utopic.

Sorry Kon' - 12 round clip when using the same round 20 when using less propellant. With maximum rate if fire and single barrel still a 2-4 second burst. But you have a high chance for a jam. So you need a multi-chamber loading mechanism to have a difference between AC20 and Ultra 5s or even Rotarys. (Not that the rotary is a well defined weapon to start with - it's a lightweight ac20 with more range, damage and less heat)