97 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

ok, you got me, nascar is the most exciting l33t tier 0 advanced strategy, have fun

[John McClintock]

Lot of Sodium Chloride here, I might have to open up a mining facility.

I've given up playing assaults (even sold my dire wolf) because of NASCAR, I don't see how anyone can play QP with an assault, most games I was simply left behind and died facing 4-5 lights who were at the tip of the rotation. I suppose I could try and hang back and try to blend into the second lap, but that is even more difficult, and leaves you out of position even worse, and you'll still get left behind, and die, screaming "Stop the rotation, turn and fight!!!"

You can place a certain amount of blame on symmetrical maps designed with a predominant central feature. IE "the place
where we rotate around the invisible satellite dish". Even on maps where it's off center, the place where the satellite dish normally sits is where the rotation will happen 90% of the time.

Combine that with spread out spawn points where the lights are on the left, mediums in the middle, the heavies on the right, it almost guarantees a nascar.

Two things would help this...

1: have multiple satellite dish spawn points, Make them semi random in nature, not just always on a central hill top. We've become well trained to rotate around certain terrain features.

2: Change up spawn points for mechs. Make them semi random in nature. That would force teams to communicate to some degree.

The first problem, is that NASCAR works. Ever seen two dogs circling? That's why in World War One, the term "Dog Fight" was used to describe Airplane vs Airplane combat. Ever seen two UFC fighters circling? It's a basic survival instinct. You have to consciously choose to not do it, if you don't want to do it.

The other problem is- it is a selfish tactic used by "teams" that don't communicate. (I use the term "Team" loosely)

The problem comes in teams not communicating and leaving their assaults (and heavies) behind to get hit with the tip of the rotatoe spear all by themselves, IE used for sandbags. I've been in fights where I got left behind in a Timber Wolf doing 81kph, thinking, "Maybe I should just duck behind cover, and shut down for half a lap. More matches where I barely got off a shot, because I was stuck at the tail end of rotation, and eventually the enemy lights catch up and -instead of turning to help- the whole team keeps rotating, and lets their "slow movers" get picked off one at a time.

Sure, must have been my fault for stopping to shoot at the bad guys in stead of just blindly running into the rotatoe.

It's a tactic, but only when used tactically, otherwise it's a liability to at least half of your team. There it is, that TEAM word.

I only do quick play, but in teams that don't/won't talk you are almost guaranteed to get a NASCAR, I recently gave up playing anything but N. American server, because the NASCAR was too strong on Euro and Ocean.

With all that said, in games where communication actually happens, not only is there a strong push to not just blindly NASCAR, but we also tend to win. So, there is hope, but it begins with communication.

Don't want to NASCAR? Start talking to your team at the loading screen. See if you can get them to talk, then plan accordingly.

Most of my QP matches in an assault I simply died, rarely doing more than 200 dmg. No way to stay in a good position, when most of your team is going twice as fast, and won't co-ordinate with you.

I could barely break 200dmg in an assault, but in a light, I rarely get less than 200, often 400 or more, sometime much, much more.

Maybe it's just me, but in anything less than 75kph, I'm a liability to the team.

I've found a small amount of success by cutting across the middle of the rotation, and you can sometimes get your team to do that with you, sort of "hey dog, I heard you like rotation, so I put some rotation on your rotation".

Also, dropping airstrikes in their path will "sometimes" slow the rotation (long enough to get into better position at least) and it generally takes at least two back to back airstrikes to stop a rotation even momentarily. But that can give an advantage to your own team to strike them in the tail.

[thievingmagpi]

I'd really like to agree with the "communicate" point, I do... But there are so many people in this game who are simply averse to putting in any kind of effort.

Don't get me wrong, good communication can increase your WL by an amount. You'll win a few more games that's for sure, but sometimes it just comes at too much of a cost.

The amount of effort you have to put in hollering at some clueless punter to turn around or how many times you have to repeat "do not go into the trench", it's often just not worth it. I can barely stand hearing people prattle on about what dumb build they're experimenting with, and there's enough terrible calling as it is, i'm close to just disabling all voip.

You're right that there are average, mediocre and even good players who respond to calls and it can result in an increase in win rate, but like a lot of things in MWO, it's ruined by the innumerate dregs who can't figure out how to look at the mini map and their cockpit screen at the same time.

[John McClintock]

I see the Greeks mentioned, they had problems with the RoTaToE even back then.

Had to dig a little to find a modern reference, but I recalled reading this back in the day while studying world history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx

Each individual hoplite carried his shield on his left arm, protecting not only himself but also the soldier to the left. This meant that the men at the extreme right of the phalanx were only half-protected. In battle, opposing phalanxes would try to exploit this weakness by attempting to overlap the enemy's right flank (ROTATOE). It also meant that, in battle, a phalanx would tend to drift to the right (ROTATOE)(as hoplites sought to remain behind the shield of their neighbour). The most experienced hoplites were often placed on the right side of the phalanx to avoid these (ROTATOE) problems. Some groups, such as the Spartans at Nemea, tried to use this (ROTATOE)phenomenon to their advantage. In this case, the phalanx would sacrifice its left side (IE Assault mechs), which typically consisted of allied troops (NEWBS Piloting Assaults), in an effort to overtake the enemy from the flank.

[General Solo]

Still effective to this day

[Wil McCullough]

John McClintock, on 17 May 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

Lot of Sodium Chloride here, I might have to open up a mining facility.
The problem comes in teams not communicating and leaving their assaults (and heavies) behind to get hit with the tip of the rotatoe spear all by themselves, IE used for sandbags. I've been in fights where I got left behind in a Timber Wolf doing 81kph, thinking, "Maybe I should just duck behind cover, and shut down for half a lap. More matches where I barely got off a shot, because I was stuck at the tail end of rotation, and eventually the enemy lights catch up and -instead of turning to help- the whole team keeps rotating, and lets their "slow movers" get picked off one at a time.

Sure, must have been my fault for stopping to shoot at the bad guys in stead of just blindly running into the rotatoe.

Then don't stop to shoot bad guys when you're at the tail end of the pack? you're in t2, you should know how to shoot on the move.

you seem to be blaming your team when you got yourself into that situation. nascar does happen a lot but when you start getting left behind in a 81kph mech, it's time to step back and think whether there's a problem that exists between your keyboard and chair.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 18 May 2019 - 01:44 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

thievingmagpi, on 17 May 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

You're right that there are average, mediocre and even good players who respond to calls and it can result in an increase in win rate, but like a lot of things in MWO, it's ruined by the innumerate dregs who can't figure out how to look at the mini map and their cockpit screen at the same time.

dregs will always exist and there will always be dregs in qp. what's the best that you can do when there's dregs on your qp team?

1 - hold a strong position by yourself and hope the window lickers come with you
2 - try to communicate with them over voip when you know something like 90% of them have comms muted
3 - stick with the rotato and deathball

answer is quite obvious. it's 3.

gotta work with the situation, man.

[Feral Clown]

OZHomerOZ, on 16 May 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Garbage, Many many games Solo teams scatter to the four winds, whats that, Situational awareness perhaps.
NASCAR to the rescue
Two Teams nascar one team wins



So winning is selfish and cowardly, Im not here to manage peoples buthertz , I'm here to win.
What ever it takes FTW mang
Two team nascar one team wins, winners get a extra 50K even if some didn't earn it.
How dat selfish, give a guy extra 50K and they call you selfish
Perhaps entitled much



Why NASCAR when you have a strong team mang
Doh FYI strong teams are kinda thin on the ground in SOLO QUEUE, match maker may be involved, definitely
Unlike group and Faction Play where Strong teams clubbing weak teams and solo seals is a common occurrence

NASCAR threads are the new LRM threads
Anyway your wasting your time you can't stop the NASCAR

And if people thought about it they would realize that as skill gap in solo queue has increased, so has NASCAR.

NASCAR is a symptom of match maker failing

So Mr Faction warfare seal clubbers 99 percents, why nascaro hurt you, again, Oh yes selfishness and cowardice you say
I under standy, now harder to farm pugs with honorably sync drop with 99% FW/Group buddies
Very sad, I get weepy

Why not one v one Haze? It's funny though that you seem to think you started self narcing and have an issue with BCMC. Have to borrow a page from my old Evil friends and get you to fill out a hurt feelings report. Really though, who's the one that's butthurt here?

[Lykaon]

Wil McCullough, on 16 May 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

any position gets exponentially worse the further your team gets from you. it's simply because defending it becomes untenable. and if you decide to stick it out and try to hold it, you'll end up removing yourself from the game when you eventually get overrun. it doesn't matter where you choose to fight, a lone assault is food.

play the game that's happening, not the one you want it to be.

Abandoning a superior position in hopes of catching the enemy's tail when resolving to hold the superior position would result in decapitating the enemy and a complete landslide victory is the very definition of failure to think tactically.

The hypothetical position is still a superior position even when it is ignored. Continuing the rotation instead of seizing a superior tactical option is a choice,and a poor choice at that.

"playing the game that is happening" is superior advise.

Sadly people still NASCAR when the game they are currently playing will obviously result in defeat if they keep rotating away from isolated team mates and spoon feed valuable assets to the enemy because instead of opting to utilize those assets the team rotated away from them.

Within the first few seconds of the first rotation of a NASCAR you can see if it will likely result in victory. If you see your line of rotating mechs scattered in a staggered line you will likely loose. Your front line lacks the mass to quickly capitalize on the enemy's stragglers and your rear is to vulnerable to attack. If you see this (and watch for it) you are probably going to loose.

When this happens it's time to do something else because continuing to rotate is a continuance of spoon feeding the enemy a victory.

You have two primary choices...

Turn and support your rear lines or cut through the center of the rotation and attack the flank of the enemy attacking your rear.


But we are talking about MWo and actual tactical game play was pretty much executed back in 2016.


So what do we do now? how do we "play the game that is happening"

Well...assume your team wouldn't recognize a superior tactic or position ever. Don't even think that is an option you are now part of an idiot mob. Even if you tell them where when and how they won't or can't...it's an idiot's game that is happening.

How to play like a (successful) idiot.

Your mech should be no slower than 60 kph in fact 70 kph should be the bar.
Your mech should either be very small and agile or very tough. look for mechs with high armor and structure quirks.
If your mech is neither agile or tough it MUST hit as hard as possible.
Your mech should be very good at sustained damage output or hit so hard you can afford to wait between shots.
Do not block the mechs behind you, the more lanes of fire the better.
Have no concern for your own safety or your team mates. Push forward always.

If you do this holding a 50/50 win loss should be simple because mostly the matchmaker has already decided the outcome for you.

[Wil McCullough]

Lykaon, on 18 May 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:

Abandoning a superior position in hopes of catching the enemy's tail when resolving to hold the superior position would result in decapitating the enemy and a complete landslide victory is the very definition of failure to think tactically.

The hypothetical position is still a superior position even when it is ignored. Continuing the rotation instead of seizing a superior tactical option is a choice,and a poor choice at that.

"playing the game that is happening" is superior advise.

Sadly people still NASCAR when the game they are currently playing will obviously result in defeat if they keep rotating away from isolated team mates and spoon feed valuable assets to the enemy because instead of opting to utilize those assets the team rotated away from them.

Within the first few seconds of the first rotation of a NASCAR you can see if it will likely result in victory. If you see your line of rotating mechs scattered in a staggered line you will likely loose. Your front line lacks the mass to quickly capitalize on the enemy's stragglers and your rear is to vulnerable to attack. If you see this (and watch for it) you are probably going to loose.

When this happens it's time to do something else because continuing to rotate is a continuance of spoon feeding the enemy a victory.

You have two primary choices...

Turn and support your rear lines or cut through the center of the rotation and attack the flank of the enemy attacking your rear.


But we are talking about MWo and actual tactical game play was pretty much executed back in 2016.


So what do we do now? how do we "play the game that is happening"

Well...assume your team wouldn't recognize a superior tactic or position ever. Don't even think that is an option you are now part of an idiot mob. Even if you tell them where when and how they won't or can't...it's an idiot's game that is happening.

How to play like a (successful) idiot.

Your mech should be no slower than 60 kph in fact 70 kph should be the bar.
Your mech should either be very small and agile or very tough. look for mechs with high armor and structure quirks.
If your mech is neither agile or tough it MUST hit as hard as possible.
Your mech should be very good at sustained damage output or hit so hard you can afford to wait between shots.
Do not block the mechs behind you, the more lanes of fire the better.
Have no concern for your own safety or your team mates. Push forward always.

If you do this holding a 50/50 win loss should be simple because mostly the matchmaker has already decided the outcome for you.

oh i was talking about decision making on a micro level aka you can only affect your own decisions/movement/etc. obviously holding a good position is better than nascar-ing if everyone holds it. but when your entire team is nascar-ing, a better decision would be to just follow them.

and that's where the rest of your advice comes in. haha. i guess we're both on the same page.

[General Solo]

Feral Clown, on 18 May 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

Why not one v one Haze?

So Haze can't talk for himself.
You his assistant?
Good to noe

Feral Clown, on 18 May 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

It's funny though that you seem to think you started self narcing .

Really, your easily amused then. If not invented, certainly was an early adopter, like as soon as they stopped falling off after some hits. How long ago was dat?

I remember some EMP dude saying on redit that narc was gunna be strong (wid some other weapons) soon after I started my self narcing adventures.
So in those very very very early days wae before narc was FW meta, and virtually unheard of in any queue I had some encouragement from the best that self narc was a good niche.
Thanks JMan for helping me believe in moi niche, you may not know how but you helped


You have something earlier cause evidence could back your claims.

Soon after this video, I noticed anther Summoner like mine, but only once. He did OK some kills, 800 damage

I self narced alone for so long , first other I noticed doing it was a dude from, Surprise , Surprise, BCMC, either Cheekiez or Hoobz, self narcing with 3 brawlers in faction Warfare Scouting drops.

And I thought , that guy is so cool.
Just like me! , But he was 2nd place for self narc inventer award cause I was already doing it for months and months already.
Doh maybe he was doing the same for months and months and I just didn't know.

Just like those's great inventions invented interdependently by two brilliant people on opposite sides of the globe.
aka Multiple discovery

Feral Clown, on 18 May 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

........ have an issue with BCMC?

Whatever gave you that idea!
Just coz I called Haze out for saying non content stupeed newbie retoric dont mean I hate BCMC or Haze for that matter.
Dat you projecting mang, I can have a disagreement without hating.

The Stupeeeeeed information cant be allowed to spread. Sorry but not Sorry

And as for your Evils Friends Buthertz Report, you do what you have to.
you do you

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 19 May 2019 - 10:41 AM.

[John McClintock]

Wil McCullough, on 18 May 2019 - 01:44 AM, said:

Then don't stop to shoot bad guys when you're at the tail end of the pack? you're in t2, you should know how to shoot on the move.

you seem to be blaming your team when you got yourself into that situation. nascar does happen a lot but when you start getting left behind in a 81kph mech, it's time to step back and think whether there's a problem that exists between your keyboard and chair.

Don't you worry, I'll be tier one in a month or two, I just started playing this game.

I didn't say I got left behind frequently, just that it's happened. I pay more attention these days, especially when playing my slower mechs and I rarely play anything that goes less than 104.5kph anyways.

But the problem remains, I hear Assaults almost every game begging to not be left behind in a blind NASCAR run. Frequently they are still left behind to get killed as the tail of the blue team.

It's been better since I started playing on the N. American server exclusively, where people talk about 10x's more than on the other two. ie about one in three games has actual communication, vs almost never on the other two servers where NASCAR is default setting.

[Wil McCullough]

John McClintock, on 21 May 2019 - 04:10 PM, said:

Don't you worry, I'll be tier one in a month or two, I just started playing this game.

I didn't say I got left behind frequently, just that it's happened. I pay more attention these days, especially when playing my slower mechs and I rarely play anything that goes less than 104.5kph anyways.

But the problem remains, I hear Assaults almost every game begging to not be left behind in a blind NASCAR run. Frequently they are still left behind to get killed as the tail of the blue team.

It's been better since I started playing on the N. American server exclusively, where people talk about 10x's more than on the other two. ie about one in three games has actual communication, vs almost never on the other two servers where NASCAR is default setting.

i heard assaults complain about it a lot too. while i'm in my assault in front and they're 1000m away at the back. most of the time, it's a pebkac issue.

great that you're paying more attention to positioning lately. hopefully, more assault players would do the same.

[Catnium]

agreed eu servers suck.
never want to play them but despite setting server selection to yank only i still get put in lame eu games sometimes.

which is always fun.. i start the match by rolling a smoke ,, waiting for 40 seconds because it takes the kids that long to move out..
than i spend most of the match running around filling all the gaps and doing all the fighting 1 vs 5 while the turds stand around windowlicking the hill top behind me.
Not to mention the awesome builds eu people use
like the fabled twin er ppc raven with no extra heat sinks and stealth armor
who than contribute a whooping 128 damage in the whole match...
or the "let's put a weapon on every hard point i have an at least 2 must be Lrm's !!! and the smallest xl engine my mech can fit after that" builds,...

Aah kill me now...

Edited by Catnium, 21 May 2019 - 10:54 PM.

[Agent Smith 02]

Sometimes a firefight starts and you rely on your comrades, walk 100 meters to the side and find that you and your team have successfully exposed the enemy to crossfire. Then, after a juicy salvo, you roll back to cool the guns. Then go out again and... wait a minute, where did your allies go? A column of enemy units is looking at you and nothing distracts it. And your allies decided to circle around the map right in the middle of the battle and leave you alone.

One day, another Light Mech and I encountered one Assault. Naturally, I expected that we would easily pin him in the back, TWO of us, especially considering the buildings around us to get out of the line of fire. I went around him from behind, fired one volley, started spinning, and my ally 100 meters away from me just ran past and left me 1 on 1. I don't expect any global strategies, but the absence of some kind of minimal tactical mental connection with your allies in close proximity is disappointing. I don’t blame them for the loss in such cases, I blame them for being bored due to lack of cooperation. I’m just disappointed that I have to stick to the boring tactics called “press W” in order not to lose

One day a situation happened: 2 of my allies against one fast mech, time was running out. I wrote “just don’t die, wait for the time to run out.” My badly damaged ally could think of nothing better than to stand on a hill where he could be seen from all sides, and spin. When the enemy shot at him, there was a corner close to him where he could hide, he survived the shot, but did not hide, and he also did not aim at the enemy, although he was already highlighted with a red frame. He did not have armor in front, but was on his back, he also did not cover himself with rear armor, he simply waited for the second shot and died and the match ended in a draw. An ally was nearby under the wall, but he did not jump to him in order to increase his chances of survival when I initially asked him not to die. FULL ignoring of a teamplay

[PsionicMantis]

This thread is closing in on 5 years old from the last post. Why try to bring it back out of the ground?

[Rondoe]

I foresee a Highlander burial coming to this thread, lol

[Ekson Valdez]

Someone said Highlander Burial?

HERE WE GOOOOOO!



In all seriousness, dead threads should not be raised from their slumber. If you feel that the topic from the past is relevant in the present, please open a new topic.
Thank you.

props to wildcat-144 for this magnificent artwork

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 29 February 2024 - 11:04 PM.