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Attn Pgi Staff / Mods


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Poll: Attn Pgi Staff / Mods (58 member(s) have cast votes)

Eliminate first ten elo multiplier

  1. Yes (56 votes [96.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 96.55%

  2. No (2 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

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#1 Makenzie71

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:25 AM

You can lock the threads about it, and that’s totally fine. That tells us that at least the forum staff have seen the nonsense. Plus, conversation is still ongoing through reddit and facebook and discord and twitch etc. We know emails have been sent and we know that at least one person internally has been made aware of what everyone saw (and watched the video as well). People have been caught gaming the system. People have been caught manipulating the scoreboard. This is done, it’s end of season, it can’t be undone. I’m not even sure any of us are seeking “justice”...I’m not. What i want, and i think i will have at least a few other players support this, is a little change.

The first ten elo multiplier needs to go away. This mechanic serves no purpose in solaris and should be eliminated for the following reasons:

A. It is easily manipulated.

B. It encourages alt-farming.

C. It discourages unskilled players from ever coming back.

D. It can establish an unrealistic representation of player skill.

E. It’s the only reason 25-and-done is even possible.

F. It encourages people to run alt accounts in solaris.

I feel that Solaris has a lot of issues, and I feel that this is easily the largest one. I feel that losing the multiplier will force the 25-and-done players to actually play the game and it will prevent the unskilled new players from being so easily discouraged. Only good can come of it.

Edited by Makenzie71, 15 April 2019 - 09:23 AM.


#2 I O O percent KongLord

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:59 AM

Or;
-Everyone starts at 0
-Elo boosted up to 1500 rating, no matter how many games you have under your belt

Pretty much how it was back in the gold days of wow, boosted to 1500 because everyone started with hidden 1500mmr which dropped/increased depending on wins and real rating had to catch up.

Or get rid of all the stupid super elo gains from wins and super elo drains from losses... At most 40 rating from win or 40 from loss. No more -100 games.

#3 Gilgamecc

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:21 AM

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 15 April 2019 - 12:09 PM.
discussing moderation, replies removed


#4 Dionnsai

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:21 AM

it can be more than that konglord, the first 10 matches have X7 multiplier, so you can have 200+ elo gains

#5 Makenzie71

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:25 AM

My first match in div 1 this season was against a 2100. I can’t remember what the gain was but it was substantially more than 100.

#6 Makenzie71

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:34 AM

Just a reminder...there is a poll at the top here. Nothing can change what has already been done, but this change could go a long way to prevent it from happening again, and it’s a change that shouldn’t require great effort on the part of the developers. If we can show enough support for the idea, especially from the players who actually invest their time in solaris, it might make a difference.

#7 Gilgamecc

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:34 AM

I think banning people from Solaris is the right move. If they can't be banned just from Solaris, ban them until the end of the season.

#8 Xiphias

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:55 AM

View PostGilgamecc, on 15 April 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

I think banning people from Solaris is the right move. If they can't be banned just from Solaris, ban them until the end of the season.

While I agree that people exploiting the system should be banned, it still doesn't address the fundamental issues with the seeding, which is that a player can get ranked really high by starting a few good matches in a division and then simply not play and stay at the top.

Case in point, I was (am?) top 10 in Div 2 with only 25-26 matches played simply because I was able to win all of my seeding matches (25-1 I think?). I haven't really had time to play a whole lot, but even if I did, it would almost be detrimental for me to play matches in that division because I stand to lose far more than I would gain trying to rank up. It unfairly penalizes good pilots with lots of matches who have to play many, many more matches to catch up, all because they lost a match in the first 10 instead of the second 10.

#9 Gilgamecc

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:02 AM

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 15 April 2019 - 12:45 PM.
unconstructive, name & shame


#10 Dionnsai

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:03 AM

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 15 April 2019 - 12:46 PM.
unconstructive


#11 Ghost Paladin117

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:07 AM

View PostXiphias, on 15 April 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

While I agree that people exploiting the system should be banned, it still doesn't address the fundamental issues with the seeding, which is that a player can get ranked really high by starting a few good matches in a division and then simply not play and stay at the top.

Case in point, I was (am?) top 10 in Div 2 with only 25-26 matches played simply because I was able to win all of my seeding matches (25-1 I think?). I haven't really had time to play a whole lot, but even if I did, it would almost be detrimental for me to play matches in that division because I stand to lose far more than I would gain trying to rank up. It unfairly penalizes good pilots with lots of matches who have to play many, many more matches to catch up, all because they lost a match in the first 10 instead of the second 10.

Well yeah that's what a lot of us have said and Makenzie is getting at I think. The bonus needs to go. If you play Solaris more than the first 25 matches you'll most likely agree. 25 and quit players will probably not like it.

#12 Xiphias

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:16 PM

View PostGhost Paladin117, on 15 April 2019 - 11:07 AM, said:

Well yeah that's what a lot of us have said and Makenzie is getting at I think. The bonus needs to go. If you play Solaris more than the first 25 matches you'll most likely agree. 25 and quit players will probably not like it.

I know and I agree with Makenzie. Two of my unit mates, Bradley and Hulkins play a lot of Solaris and are well aware of the flaws. I don't have nearly as much time these days so I'm 25 and quit in a few divisions, but I still think the bonus should go away.

#13 Hazeclaw

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:18 PM

[Redacted]

#14 Ghost Paladin117

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:29 PM

View PostXiphias, on 15 April 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

I know and I agree with Makenzie. Two of my unit mates, Bradley and Hulkins play a lot of Solaris and are well aware of the flaws. I don't have nearly as much time these days so I'm 25 and quit in a few divisions, but I still think the bonus should go away.

Oh yeah I see them on all the time. They've seen some interesting stuff in Solaris too.

#15 Horseman

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 01:05 PM

View PostMakenzie71, on 15 April 2019 - 08:25 AM, said:

The first ten elo multiplier needs to go away. This mechanic serves no purpose in solaris and should be eliminated for the following reasons:

G. It means that players who suffer a streak of losses early into the season will be unduly impacted for the rest of the season.

I would at the very least want to see the multiplier reduced (2x may be sensible) and only applying to wins.

#16 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:01 PM

Ok so. Rewind to Mechcon... Some of you prob know this from watching my streams and Comp shoutcasts and some might not. It's no secret and I was too lazy over Xmas to type it all up in full detail.

So a few high level players were asked to have a pow-wow with Chris about balance etc. Bows3r / Krasnopesky / Lizzee / D A T A & myself. It was meant to be an hour, at 8am on a Sunday after a 'couple' beers the night before and we ended up going for over 1.5hrs. Almost 2hrs. Was pretty good to have this opportunity and we covered some interesting stuff.

Anyway one of the things that came up and we probably spent too much time on it was, Solaris.
  • AC2s - Being very dominante
  • Bonus ELO - 7x Bonus for 10 seeding matches each season
  • Match Maker BUG - Big issue with it.
1. AC2s - this was adjusted the next patch I believe with a velocity nerf. There was other items put forward however players all said that none of those would work. It's gotta be velocity. That happened in as many weeks so tick one to the completion board.



2. Bonus ELO - Kinda 2 parts. PT1 - One player was super vocal about it and everyone was in agreeance it needed to go. PT2- Furthermore something to encourage people to play more than 25 matches as well. ELO decay won't work as you can just stack your games in the last week. As yet unresolved on both items.

3. Match Maker BUG - So this is a larger one in terms of explaination however there is a major flaw in the Solaris Match Maker and it has existed since Day 1. You can have 4 players with various ELO as below.
P1 - 2000
P2 - 1800
P3 - 1700
P4 - 1400

Now what the Match Maker does is pair the two closest players in ELO first. And then the rest. So if all 4 of those are in queue the match up would be:

Match 1 - P2 1800 vs P3 1700
Match 2 - P1 2000 vs P4 1400

So yeah this is as yet - unresolved also. It's a game breaking BUG in terms of match maker / quality of matches because it opens the door for a certain word starting in EX and ending in ING. I don't wanna type it because I don't wanna be sent to the Gulag for the 4,000th time Posted Image


My thoughts:

AC2s did need a nerf and that happened. Not sure it was enough but you cannot balance a weapon for Solaris and then break it in the majority of the game. So in that respect the adjustment was as good as it can be and Chris & Co got that right and quickly too so that was mighty impressive.

Now I would say #2 and #3 are pretty important for the overall health of the mode. Solaris is (almost) into its 5th season and thus 12 months in. Can I split a hair between which from 2 or 3 is more important? I honestly can't because of the issues both pose to the mode.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 April 2019 - 02:22 PM.


#17 Makenzie71

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:11 PM

Ive always wondered about the match maker thing...any time i hit the queue when it’s loaded it always seems i get matched with someone who has a 400pt lead or deficit, but when i get back to the lobby the spectate matches seem more evenly matched.

I think the ELO boost thing is the most important, though (obviously)

#18 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:28 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 15 April 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

Now I would say #2 and #3 are pretty important for the overall health of the mode. Solaris is (almost) into its 5th season and thus 12 months in. Can I split a hair between which from 2 or 3 is more important? I honestly can't because of the issues both pose to the mode.



Oh and one other thing - #3 actually overlaps into Comp Queue for World Champs... Pretty big one for the games premier competition.

And not trying to start a bun fight here. I just want the issues fixed as I'm sure we all do.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 April 2019 - 02:28 PM.


#19 Horseman

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:32 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 15 April 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

Furthermore something to encourage people to play more than 25 matches as well.
Said it before, will say it again: Toss in a season-long loot bag event - one bag per match, perhaps one extra bag per win with some cap per division and people will play Solaris just to farm the bags. Extremely low effort.

Quote

3. Match Maker BUG - So this is a larger one in terms of explaination however there is a major flaw in the Solaris Match Maker and it has existed since Day 1. You can have 4 players with various ELO as below.
P1 - 2000
P2 - 1800
P3 - 1700
P4 - 1400

Now what the Match Maker does is pair the two closest players in ELO first. And then the rest. So if all 4 of those are in queue the match up would be:

Match 1 - P2 1800 vs P3 1700
Match 2 - P1 2000 vs P4 1400

Sounds to me like the matchmaker has been unnecessarily overengineered.

1. Sort queued players by ELO

2. Generate a list of pairings from top to bottom of the sort. (lowest-ranked player would not be matched)

3. If the number of players in queue is even, use list from #2 to start matches.

4. If the highest-ELO player in queue has priority, use list from #2 to start matches.

5. Generate a list of pairings from bottom to top of the sort. (highest-ranked player would not be matched)

6. If the lowest-ELO player in queue has priority, use list from #5 to start matches.

7. Track a running total of combined ELO difference (absolute value) between these pairings.

8. Calculate sum of absolute ELO differences between pairings in #2

9. Calculate sum of absolute ELO differences between pairings in #5

10. If #9 sum is greater than #8 sum, use list from #2 to start matches

11. Use list from #5 to start matches



Not exactly rocket science, accounts for queue priority and aims to minimize the difference if there is room to do so (which in Solaris is fairly rare).

Edited by Horseman, 15 April 2019 - 02:36 PM.


#20 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:34 PM

Oh and lastly... The POLL / OUTCOME is more than just a keep/remove.

I think there needs to be some kinda adjustment for initial seeding in Solaris as well for a new season. You should have reduced chances to have 2000ELO+ players reset to 1500ELO and have them fight 1200ELO players every 3 months. That's totally discouraging and that is what the 7x Multi in first 10 sets out to achieve.

It just doesn't do the job very well.

So it's more than a keep/remove poll IMO. Needs a 3rd optionor something - How could it be improved?


Right now I don't have the answer to that or a suggestion as I've not really thought about how it could be handled.





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