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T1=Crap Teams T4/5=Good Teams


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#1 mad kat

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:01 PM

Hear me out on this but over the last week or so I've dusted off my alt account to see what life is like in the lower tiers and I have to say it's been a shock!

After years of playing in T1 and seeing matches crumbling with awful teams and sometimes a whole week can go by where it's nothing but getting stomped and some nights can't even win a single match. And judging by the forums here and elsewhere i'm far from the only person experiencing this. Seeing really bad builds, bad habits, splitting up and solo'ing etc etc it goes on.

But then I started playing from scratch in my alt account and pretty much every match has been progressive, steady and most importantly. Close. Sure I've seen some daft mistakes that once learnt wouldn't be forgotten in a hurry. But the team balance is positively magical in comparison and ttk is expectedly better.

Is it really time for a global tier reset?

Edited by mad kat, 16 April 2019 - 05:20 AM.


#2 Shanrak

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:31 PM

The root cause as always is that at least half the players in tier 1 does not belong. The matches in tier 5 are better balanced skill wise because neither side has any unless there are smurfs present. If you know what you are doing you can easily carry a team at that level. But for actual team work, accuracy, positioning you can get that occasionally in tier 1 if there are enough skilled players in the game. The bad builds habits etc people really don't belong in tier 1.

#3 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:02 PM

*THIS IS NOT A STATE SHAME*

Have to get that out the way because it's like walking on eggshells around here sometimes...

So lets look at your main account: https://leaderboard....earch?u=mad+kat

Match Score Av - 230 / WLR 0.94 / KDR 0.95

That is above the average. Well done.

The issue though is because your skill is above the average, which isn't overly hard given where the average is, but rather than skill floor is SO low in T5 that you basically have a huge advantage.
  • People standing around.
  • Aim is as expected for low tier (ie, not great).
  • They don't rotate because game awareness/play is lower.
  • They often run to Zimbabwe to chase a single cookies.
  • Builds are often the mixed bag of mixed bags
So yeah the experience will be different for someone with reasonable experience in the game (so knowledge of maps, builds, mechs, ingame functions), which you have. For a lot of them however, and you see posts about it here on the forum now and again, it's even frustrating at their level.


I remember smurfing for a few games maybe 18 months ago? Might have been longer. I ended up with 8-9 kills, 1200dmg in a trial mech and I called the match. The dads were rejoicing but it was worse than trying to herd cats in Tier 1, because at least in Tier 1 most cats - generally - head to the right area on the map (even if they rotate away from it soon after). That don't happen in T5 I assure you.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 April 2019 - 03:02 PM.


#4 Anomalocaris

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:08 PM

I think the point is that, smurfs aside, the badness is roughly equivalent on both teams in Tier5 because level of skill homogeneity in Tier 4/5 is pretty good - or at least a lot better than in Tier 1..

It's Tier 1 where those that have failed upward over the years cause massive imbalances between teams (because guys like Ash and a 200 match score experience bar player are considered equal to the MM), and to make it worse, because they're in Tier 1 many don't realize they're worse than the majority of their peers (and thus tend to be salty, not take advice, etc.).

#5 Grus

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:19 PM

Again, teir is just a exp bar. Means nothing about player skill level.

For example

https://leaderboard....g/search?u=Grus

I'm in teir 1.

#6 Bombast

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:24 PM

As others have said, it's because of PSR. Pretty much everyone in Tier 4-5, whether they be new players or 6 year MWO veterans who are eternally bad, should be in Tier 4-5. A huge quantity of the people in Tier 1-2 should actually be in Tier 3-5. This disparity is the cause for a lot of the issues in higher tiers.

I remember when I went on my Tier 5 safari. I pretty much just played a Stealthmando so I could observe both teams and only participate as much as I deemed reasonable. And oh man, it was bad. The only reason it seems fair is because everyone is screwing up everything all the time (Which is perfectly ok for T4-5, it can be a complicated game).

#7 Monkey Lover

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:35 PM

View PostGrus, on 15 April 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Again, teir is just a exp bar. Means nothing about player skill level.

For example

https://leaderboard....g/search?u=Grus

I'm in teir 1.



Why shouldn't you be tier 1? It has you in the top 15% of people. If you pushed tier1 into top 5% or something they would never get matches. I think a lot of people forget tier1 isn't some best of the best group.


As for a exp bar i have played with a few people in my faction for years and they're still not tier1. They're 2 and even 3. So it might somewhat be an exp bar but its not 100%.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 15 April 2019 - 03:40 PM.


#8 Anomalocaris

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:59 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 15 April 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:



Why shouldn't you be tier 1? It has you in the top 15% of people. If you pushed tier1 into top 5% or something they would never get matches. I think a lot of people forget tier1 isn't some best of the best group.


As for a exp bar i have played with a few people in my faction for years and they're still not tier1. They're 2 and even 3. So it might somewhat be an exp bar but its not 100%.


I think that there is a general consensus that with the population size of MWO you can't expect to get pure T1 matches with a proper ranking system (except maybe during a short part of NA prime time). But what we could expect with a better, more granular (and zero sum) ranking system is that you could distribute the skill between teams much more equally. Right now Grus counts as a Tier 1 player just the same as Ash does. But they are not of equal skill (just looking at match score, KDR, etc). This means if they both enter the QP solo queue right now in assault mechs, the matchmaker might could put them on opposing teams and view that as balanced when in fact its not.

IMO, all we can hope for at this point with a re-ranking and improved matchmaker is to have a similar aggregate skill level on each team. This does not guarantee close matches, or even parity between those ostensibly similarly skilled players, but it gives us a better chance or getting closer to that ideal.

#9 Alan Hicks

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 05:39 PM

Tier reset, tier change, a MM overhaul or something else must be done.

Matches are mostly garbage due to unbalanced teams.

It shows PGI does not care much about the player experience.

#10 VitriolicViolet

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:51 PM

reset would be cool.

When i first started i was bad, really bad and it took me over a year to ask anyone for help or advice. it tanked my stats pretty badly.

Thats not to say im good now or anything but im lower on the list than Grus and im also teir 1. i should be teir 2 frankly

#11 Curccu

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:55 PM

View PostVitriolicViolet, on 15 April 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

reset would be cool.

Reset and make it possible for that bar to go down also...

Unit mate of mine actually laughed Yesterday about this:
Played piranha and was doing huge flank, 1st thing he encountered was streak huntsman.... SPLORT.
1 shot and dead, zero damage done.
Rest of us were able to win that game and his PRS did not go down... which is stuuuuuuupid.

Edited by Curccu, 15 April 2019 - 08:55 PM.


#12 CycKath

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:57 PM

View PostGrus, on 15 April 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Again, teir is just a exp bar. Means nothing about player skill level.

For example

https://leaderboard....g/search?u=Grus

I'm in teir 1.


As other suggested why shouldn't you be Tier 1? Your stats aren't that bad.

On the other hand I'm a very good example of a exp bar tier 1

https://leaderboard....earch?u=CycKath

#13 Vellron2005

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:47 PM

Personally, would not mind a global tier reset if it meant not dropping with certain people anymore..

But seeing the population is low, Group Que is impossible to get a match in if you're not playing in NA prime time.. not sure resetting would improve the situation much..

Hoping new FP matchmaker will improve things..

#14 Prototelis

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:50 PM

It would mean dropping with those people and continuing to drop with those people because you farm damage from the back.

#15 Horseman

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:02 AM

View PostCycKath, on 15 April 2019 - 08:57 PM, said:

As other suggested why shouldn't you be Tier 1? Your stats aren't that bad.
On the other hand I'm a very good example of a exp bar tier 1
https://leaderboard....earch?u=CycKath

Because the higher up you go in that ranking, the greater the skill disparity between a given percentile and what's below it. Players like Proton or Ash should not be lumped together with players like myself or Grus (who by and large only carry their own weight).
In fact, I'd say that the tier rating itself needs to be replaced with a percentile-based ranking. That would provide more meaningful information about the players.

#16 General Solo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:05 AM

Well something needs to be done before quick play is rekt due to skill gap which was a major factor in the unpopularity of other game modes like group que and faction play.

Both with dwindling populations, we don't want that for quick play too.

I know I been playing less, been more work than fun cooperation.

Posted Image


Hand picked screen shot to follow Posted Image

Posted Image

It aint pretty Posted Image

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 April 2019 - 12:41 AM.


#17 Vxheous

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:51 AM

View PostOZHomerOZ, on 16 April 2019 - 12:05 AM, said:

Well something needs to be done before quick play is rekt due to skill gap which was a major factor in the unpopularity of other game modes like group que and faction play.

Both with dwindling populations, we don't want that for quick play too.

I know I been playing less, been more work than fun cooperation.

Posted Image


Hand picked screen shot to follow Posted Image

Posted Image

It aint pretty Posted Image


Are you secretly trying to say the majority of players that play during aussie time are terribad at the game with that screenshot? If that's the case...I agree with you.

View PostVellron2005, on 15 April 2019 - 11:47 PM, said:

Personally, would not mind a global tier reset if it meant not dropping with certain people anymore..

But seeing the population is low, Group Que is impossible to get a match in if you're not playing in NA prime time.. not sure resetting would improve the situation much..

Hoping new FP matchmaker will improve things..


Group queue does not match by PSR, ever. It simply matches by jigsaw puzzle of available groups to properly form two teams of 12. If group queue actually allowed solo's to fill in, it might actually have a better shot of being able to matchmake with some sort of skill system, since it makes jigsawing much easier.

Edited by Vxheous, 16 April 2019 - 12:53 AM.


#18 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 01:00 AM

Maybe, just maybe, the FP matchmaker that was recently tested could be used for GQ?

#19 Prototelis

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 01:02 AM

Except the new matchmaker for FP still uses PSR and PSR is a crap metric.

#20 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 01:04 AM

As I understand what Paul said, it starts off based on PSR. And ELO goes from there. Am I wrong?





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