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The Is Versus Clan Ams Divide


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#1 Charles Sennet

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 02:54 PM

With the recent buffs to AMS and de-buffs to missile health, AMS can somewhat effectively mitigate not just LRM damage but damage from any missile system. A single AMS is a smart addition to almost any mech and 2+ AMS can counter a significant percentage of missile damage in many situations.

The ability to mount AMS without bringing a specialty mech (such as the Kit Fox 'Iron Dome') is useful as these specialized role mechs sacrifice a lot of team firepower.

In looking at what chassis can mount AMS, it is clear that Clans are far behind the Inner Sphere.

There are 22 IS chassis that can mount 2+ AMS and 10 of these are assault variants (important for FP). The new Corsair 7A can mount 4. Clans only have 7 chassis in total and only 1 of these is a heavy and zero are assaults.

To further compound Clans ability to bring AMS to the field is that many omnipods with AMS do not have good weapon hardpoints. Taking AMS on many omnimechs breaks many good builds.

I do not know how long the current strength of AMS will last but this seems like something that should get addressed in an upcoming 'balance pass' Chris said is coming to FP.

I am not suggesting AMS be equal for both sides but the current divide is VERY wide.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 31 March 2019 - 04:14 PM.


#2 K O Z A K

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 04:42 PM

and to add to that, clan lrms are more easily shut down by ams than IS ones

until this patch I had no idea that basically every IS mech I use could mount 1 ams by dropping 1 engine rating (I spent a lot of cbills for engines after this patch, lol)

most clan omni heavies which are the bread and butter of the clan lineup can't afford to mount even 1

#3 HammerMaster

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 05:38 PM

BS.

#4 Brown_Sea_Kraken

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 05:44 PM

I'm thinking of going 2xAMS on IS (and IS only) mechs in FP that can carry that. Specifically to mitigate damage from ATM boats at close range. I wouldnt bother with 1xAMS at all. Lurms, for the most part, can be avoided by other means with partial to full sucess.

#5 justcallme A S H

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 06:51 PM

And ye the proliferation of cECM on many viable chassis... Means nothing of course.

Nor does the heat or tonnage efficiencies of anything cLRM.


I don't get where all the constant one-sided arguments come from around this place sometimes.

#6 Lotspeech

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 05:22 AM

The man just wants an IS nova, I got no problem with that

#7 K O Z A K

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 07:20 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 31 March 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

And ye the proliferation of cECM on many viable chassis... Means nothing of course.

Nor does the heat or tonnage efficiencies of anything cLRM.


I don't get where all the constant one-sided arguments come from around this place sometimes.


There is quite a bit of ecm on both sides, ECM stalkers and fafnirs are a common sight on LRM heavy maps

IS also gets heat, velocity, and cooldown quirks that help make up for the differences between launcher weight

Balance between clan and IS lrms felt pretty close before the patch and I think it's not misleading to say with missile health decreases, IS volley fire vs clan stream, and many more usable builds that carry 1 or more AMS on IS side, it's a better time to be an IS lurmer

#8 Dionnsai

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 07:29 AM

I run an lrm maddog in certain situations and have found it to be very effective, I have no complaints about lurm performance or where ams/ecm is.

Narc lasts a little too long I think, but I like where everything else is falling at the moment.

#9 Charles Sennet

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 08:16 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 31 March 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

And ye the proliferation of cECM on many viable chassis... Means nothing of course.

Nor does the heat or tonnage efficiencies of anything cLRM.


I don't get where all the constant one-sided arguments come from around this place sometimes.


Except... not only does AMS mitigate indirect missile damage but, with recent buffs, it can mitigate non-lock-on missile damage as well (that is obviously not countered or mitigated by ECM). I'm sure you've seen the chart on this. AMS is absolutely a system that is open to balance discussions on its own merit, and when it comes to availability in FP, the numbers are profoundly in favor of one side.

You bring up the proliferation of cECM... Clans have 12 chassis that can bring ECM while IS has 23. I grant you the omnipod system helps Clans fit ECM into the chassis but ECM availability seems hardly lopsided in Clans favor. Still, this might deserve a separate look just like AMS.

Any discussion of cECM should also incorporate a discussion of IS Stealth which Clans don't have access to.

One of the lesser talked about areas of balance between the two sides is the 'disparity of choice' that exists. For instance IS now has 5 100-tonners (including newly introduced mechs) while Clans are still stuck at only 2 and have been for a long time plus neither of these can stand up to an Anni (but that is a different topic).

If we're going to talk balance pass (which in the past has been code for Clan nerfs) then I think its entirely appropriate to include the choice disparity of the two sides (such as AMS) in that discussion.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 01 April 2019 - 08:21 AM.


#10 Hobbles v

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 08:46 AM

You need to look at how useful those dual ams mechs are as actual combatants. Most of the mechs with multiple ams are not very good and none are optimal. Probably the best dual ams mech is the BLR-2C and it lacks hardpoints and quirks to be as good as its competitors for a missile friendly map.

One area of imbalance would be with the omnimechs. Ams is often on pods that people replace for better weapons.

That said clan can bring more missile tubes per ton so having even a tiny edge in ams for IS is fine.

Also clan has more access to useful ECM mechs for every weight and role. Beyond stalkers FB, Fafnirs and a couple lights IS ECM. IS has no ecm variant heavy or medium worth much. Clans get useful ECM in all weight classes and roles. Also stealth armor isnt a significant advantage. It costs tonnage and slots for an escape mechanism on a mech that can barely fight back.

Edited by Hobbles v, 01 April 2019 - 08:49 AM.


#11 Xannatharr

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 09:10 AM

View PostHobbles v, on 01 April 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

You need to look at how useful those dual ams mechs are as actual combatants. Most of the mechs with multiple ams are not very good and none are optimal. Probably the best dual ams mech is the BLR-2C and it lacks hardpoints and quirks to be as good as its competitors for a missile friendly map.


Yep, they aren't all horrible, but they definitely aren't great.

Like this http://TDR-9S yes it has double AMS but it is otherwise very underwhelming.

Edited by Xannatharr, 01 April 2019 - 09:11 AM.


#12 MiZia

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 11:03 AM

ill only say ... stk 5s 10% range, dual ams (yes it affects it too).
I laughed at the clanners while attacking Boreal (well wasnt the only ams mech).
4 Erlarge 894 m optimal and a nice umbrella.

edit wrong optimal

Edited by MiZia, 01 April 2019 - 11:22 AM.


#13 K O Z A K

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 11:13 AM

View PostMiZia, on 01 April 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

ill only say ... stk 5s 10% range, dual ams (yes it affects it too).
I laughed at the clanners while attacking Boreal (well wasnt the only ams mech).
4 Erlarge 984 m optimal and a nice umbrella.


Yeah thats one of the good ones, jester is another, and I think some brawling heavies can do it

Still I think the fact that just about every IS assault/heavy can take 1 by just drooping an engine rating is more noticeable than the few mechs that carry 2

#14 B0oN

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 11:46 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 31 March 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

And ye the proliferation of cECM on many viable chassis... Means nothing of course.

Nor does the heat or tonnage efficiencies of anything cLRM.


I don't get where all the constant one-sided arguments come from around this place sometimes.


Ehhhhh, c´moooooooooooon, Ash, youre long enough in da biz to fully know that erryone wants their side be the better one .
Nothing new here :)

#15 Hellbringer

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 12:43 PM

lore states that the clan side is supposed to be better. In MWO reality, it seems the current IS has a distinct advantage over clan due to the ongoing "rebalancing".

The only AMS mech that clanners run are the kitfox and occasionally a nova. Otherwise, almost none of us carry them.

#16 C H E E K I E Z

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 12:49 PM

Name a mech that innersphere has, that is viable that you don't have to pay either MC or $$ for that's ecmc, also the amount of people that actually lrm on IS side is half or even 75% less than clan. I can count the number of times I see lrms on IS pugs in games. If you are IS, it wont matter the map or mode, every single wave there will be multiple mechw with lock on weapons every wave.



#17 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 04:12 PM

View PostCharles Sennet, on 01 April 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

Spoiler


Yeah and basically all the cECM chassis are awesome in the FP landscape. IS ones are debatable in many instances.

Then add in the cDHS which allows you to run cLAMS for example easily. I have cLAMS on my SNV-A and it so rarely gets hot even with the LAMS going bonkers.

For 1T vs IS AMS 2T to be effective and the IS AMS is ammo based. I don't count IS LAMS simply because IS has no headroom / capacity to run LAMS on mechs

View PostB0oN, on 01 April 2019 - 11:46 AM, said:

Ehhhhh, c´moooooooooooon, Ash, youre long enough in da biz to fully know that erryone wants their side be the better one . Nothing new here :)


lol yeah that's fair. The ole Clan "woe is me" is a song I should be used to seeing. Clans are strong. People just don't want to play to their strengths of the side. They would rather the "MEMEMEME" approach where it's balanced just to suit how they wanna play and basically nothing else matters.

Fun game MWO would be in that case.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 01 April 2019 - 04:12 PM.


#18 K O Z A K

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 04:50 PM

I dunno where you guys are coming from with the ecm stuff

just about the only 4 good mechs with ecm I see dropped wave 1-2 (where as we know most drops are decided) are blood asp, helbi, fafnir and stalker. 2 are clan, 2 are IS. Blood asp and fafnir are kind of a wash, hellbi has to pick between ecm or good mounts, and then we have the facebook stalker which comes with 4 ridiculously good mounts, ecm and ams

I'd say overall the ecm/ams/lrm balance is still pretty close, certainly in the grand scheme of some misbalances of the past, it's basically nothing. But I think "clanners" have something to complain about that isn't total bs

#19 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 05:09 PM

So the good performers in FP are:

Clan - BASP / SNS / NTG / HBR / KFX / ACW / MADII

IS - STK / FNR / TNS / CDA / RVN / COM

And that's cbills, not MC. Some are a little situational, but that goes for both sides. There is a glaring gap of 'decent' in the IS Heavy area (TNS is rubbish IMO) and a bit of a gap in the Clan Assault. Given the tonnage restrictions of both sides that balances out near enough.

I would not, looking at that list, Clan is not in the better spot with regard to ECM and as I said - LAMS / cDHS etc.

Anyone would think reading some of the replies here that balance is so bad the world is about to fall off it's axis.

#20 dante245

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 07:19 PM

i believe the clans have far more ECM carriers wihtin good builds and weight ranges though over IS IMO...but i could be mistaken.

Edited by dante245, 01 April 2019 - 07:32 PM.






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