26 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

It looks pretty sweet. I love the addition of the new dense urban cities. And the Raven 1X...Awesome. Glad to see the Javelin as well...




Urban Warfare

Street brawls introduce new tactical gameplay challenges as ‘Mech combat moves from wide-open natural landscapes to vast urban sprawls. Every building in the new urban biome is fully destructible, so you’re never more than a few salvos away from a new line of sight, or the defensive cover of high-rise rubble. Abandoned explosive fuel trucks, destroyed coolant exchanger buildings, and broken electrical transformers that disrupt targeting will drastically change the battle as you go.

Electronic Warfare

The return of these lost technologies will forever change the 31st century battlefield. ‘Mechs equipped with Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) and nearby friendly units are obscured from enemy targeting systems and immune to indirect fire. Meanwhile, ‘Mechs equipped with Active Probe can reveal, locate, and target enemy units that would otherwise be hidden.

Two New BattleMechs

The experimental Raven 1X sports an advanced electronic warfare package that combines ECM and Active Probe systems into a lightweight component. The Javelin is a compromise between speed and firepower, with close-range knockout power.

New Flashpoints

A wide variety of new branching short stories that link together mercenary missions, crew conversations, special events, critical choices, and rare bonus rewards.

Three New Enemy Vehicles

The Gallant Urban Assault Tank sports a variety of weapons to fight at all ranges with speed and agility, the Packrat is a battlefield support vehicle equipped with a prototype version of ECM, and the Rotunda is a reconnaissance vehicle equipped with a prototype version of Active Probe.

New Encounter

Attack and Defend is a challenging new mission type where your mercenaries must destroy an enemy’s base to stop a steady stream of attackers before they can overcome your forces and knock out your employer’s base.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 23 April 2019 - 09:45 AM.

[Koniving]

"The experimental Raven 1X sports an advanced electronic warfare package that combines ECM and Active Probe systems into a lightweight component. The Javelin is a compromise between speed and firepower, with close-range knockout power."

They mean 7.5 tons of hefty nightmare fuel before ECM/Beagle AP even existed?
<.<?

[Koniving]

Gallant...was apparently drawn in 2011 as a light armored vehicle, and made into a 70 ton tank... It has AC/10, LRM-10 (both of these are visible), 4 MGs (are they the four trinkets on top of the tank's turret, which with their own pintle turrets arranged in complete nonsense fashion?) and an SRM-2 (this thing looks like it might have originally been designed with Arrow IV and 5 missile doors one per tube... but in general...what was Catalyst thinking when it was originally designed? Hopefully the HBS version is a little better designed.

Packrat's communication system is...technically an ECM.



And the Rotundra...

sports a large laser...SRM2
In a 20 ton sports car? I know what Batman is driving in the Battletech universe.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Koniving, on 23 April 2019 - 10:02 AM, said:

"The experimental Raven 1X sports an advanced electronic warfare package that combines ECM and Active Probe systems into a lightweight component. The Javelin is a compromise between speed and firepower, with close-range knockout power."

They mean 7.5 tons of hefty nightmare fuel before ECM/Beagle AP even existed?
<.<?

lol. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd call 7.5 tons "light", however it will definitely be some nightmare fuel. Dense urban warfare and ECM will make for some interesting combat. We will have to see exactly how HBS pulls this off. Either way, it sounds intriguing.

[Koniving]

Love the excited Urbanmech.

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 April 2019 - 10:15 AM, said:

lol. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd call 7.5 tons "light", however it will definitely be some nightmare fuel. Dense urban warfare and ECM will make for some interesting combat. We will have to see exactly how HBS pulls this off. Either way, it sounds intriguing.

It could. ECM isn't actually known for hiding you so much as making fancy lock systems worthless. However, since fancy lock systems probably aren't in the game, I'm certain a few liberties are taken. There is some precedent for hiding in double blind in that ECM can create ghost targets...

False sensor blips that may register as not only sensor blips but actual enemies up until someone can directly see them. But I don't recall us having the ability to fire on sensor blips, so... it'll be interesting to see how they handle it.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Koniving, on 23 April 2019 - 10:19 AM, said:

Love the excited Urbanmech.


It could. ECM isn't actually known for hiding you so much as making fancy lock systems worthless. However, since fancy lock systems probably aren't in the game, I'm certain a few liberties are taken. There is some precedent for hiding in double blind in that ECM can create ghost targets...

False sensor blips that may register as not only sensor blips but actual enemies up until someone can directly see them. But I don't recall us having the ability to fire on sensor blips, so... it'll be interesting to see how they handle it.

I thought I heard something about it creating the inability to lock onto a mech for indirect fire, but for the life of me I can't remember where I picked that up so I would look at that with a grain of salt at this time. If I find where I read that, I'll repost it here if it seems credible.

[Koniving]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 April 2019 - 11:05 AM, said:

I thought I heard something about it creating the inability to lock onto a mech for indirect fire, but for the life of me I can't remember where I picked that up so I would look at that with a grain of salt at this time. If I find where I read that, I'll repost it here if it seems credible.

A certain version of ECM rules will affect TAG. I don't remember exactly how that works, but this is again only an advanced kind of LRM called "Semi-guided LRMs"... the semi-guided part is that they will follow the signal of TAG, at wherever and whatever it is pointed at. TAG hitting ECM (I think its Angel I'd need to look it up) basically does nothing.

Though any ECM within 180 meters of the TAG user renders the TAG completely useless.
Anyway again...its an advanced LRM as opposed to default ones.

Indirect fire is an artillery spotter

Whom gives the approximate position for a target.
In traditional artillery, a couple of test shots are fired, with range corrections, one deliberately far and one deliberately short, once the corrections are given, "Fire for effect" occurs. In Battletech this is streamlined a bit, as LRMs like Mech Mortars...actually don't lock targets in indirect fire. It is fired in the area intended (the video games have you lock to indicate what exactly you're trying to hit), and the missiles pick out the actual target using a very, very simple set of parameters.

Unfortunately the novels that actually explore this (mostly very early ones), also show that they can very easily confuse allies as enemies in close proximity to the intended destination. After all, LRMs are very simple. Think less a Stinger and more an RPG with the ability to turn toward heat sources. Their low damage is also indicative of their pretty small size and simplicity. 120 LRMs is only $264,300 USD, 3052 cbill to 2016 USD. Just one Stinger costs $38,000. 120 of them would cost 4,560,000... and our ability to make them isn't nearly as questionable as theirs is.

[Koniving]

Anyway in BT, the spotter gives a Hex. The missiles are fired at the hex; the guy firing them has no sight on the target. He may have a blip but you can't lock on a blip. After all you can't lock on ghost targets in tabletop you have to visually verify it. Then once the missiles reach the area they try to find a target.. as such indirect fire has a high chance of missing, what if the target isn't there?

Also the spotter gives the position of the target in anticipation of where it goes, as I learned from Megamek, once the movement plays out, the guy isn't always there (common issue with vehicles that skid and fishtale, where they intend to go and where they actually end up are often very different). And if a mech slipped/skidded along the way, he won't be where he's anticipated to be.

The reason ECM doesn't affect normal LRMs is they are self-contained and made for an environment that's been full of lesser ECM for centuries.
Artemis missiles communicate with the launcher similar to how all of MWO's LRMs do. As such, ecm in 180m to the launcher or the missile renders the Artemis missiles as dumb as normal missiles. Semi-guided relies on a tag, supposedly tag gets scattered on a certain ECM rendering it useless, or within 180m of the originator (tag user). But a regular LRM wouldn't really have the potential to be affected until within 180m of the target (EXCEPT in the case of stealth armor!) and at that point, its too late to matter.

Mech mortar similarly steers toward a potential target on its way over, but they are fired in sequence rather than simultaneous, as such they aren't as accurate (lrms can rain lumps of 5 onto a single body part meanwhile mech mortar can land 2 per hit and each can and usually will be separate parts. Mech mortar's only true advantage is AMS cannot or will not track them, perhaps because mortar's do not have their own thrusters, they simply steer their fall).

But again, double blind does have some elements of concealment, which include camouflage, as such Guardian was level 3, a step above camo but only two steps above nothing at all.
The big thing is that BAP... was overpowered. EVERYTHING within 60 hexes could be found on a random dice roll per turn once succeeded. Mech hiding in a basement? Found. Tank on the third floor of a parking structure? Found. ECM mech laying hull down on a hill in a sniper's nest with Stealth armor? Found...if the roll was high enough.

I do not think BAP will share as much strength. The map used in Savannah Master thread, that was about 40+ hexes tall. Now imagine 60 hexes. The bigger map shown but not used...isn't even 55 hexes wide though I think it is 57 tall.

Now....think about that bap power....

Edited by Koniving, 23 April 2019 - 03:34 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I'm just laughing because that trailer has the urban city map I think most of us wanted in MWO.

Instead of whatever Space Vegas is.



That aside, looks like fun, and I can't wait! Having the Raven and Jav, plus EWAR will be damned nice to have in the game!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 April 2019 - 05:50 PM.

[Koniving]

I think space Vegas was in celebration of Solaris 7 the mode... But in the end it is t really anything like the source material map which easily could have made about 5 or 6 levels by itself for it. Am getting my season pass next week.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Someone on the Paradox forum captured this great screenshot of the Electronic Warfare Suite in action during the trailer. It looks pretty interesting...


You can see the hazy dome of the ECM effect and that the friendly units even seem to have a sort of darkish blob over them. It looks pretty interesting.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 24 April 2019 - 03:11 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Also, just for the heck of it, here is a pretty sweet bit of artwork from the expansion that makes a decent desktop background...

[Racerxintegra2k]

$20 seems incredibly pricey for what we are getting. Buildings that blow up, 2 light mechs(Light mech class is pretty worthless), new vehicles and new ecounter are all meh. The only thing that's of value .. is more flash points, certainly not enough imo to justify half the price of the base game !

[MeiSooHaityu]

Racerxintegra2k, on 25 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

$20 seems incredibly pricey for what we are getting. Buildings that blow up, 2 light mechs(Light mech class is pretty worthless), new vehicles and new ecounter are all meh. The only thing that's of value .. is more flash points, certainly not enough imo to justify half the price of the base game !

You listed off a lot of assets to me. With all that plus new maps, a new ECM mechanic, and a ton of new building assets to fill out those city maps (sky scrapers, billboards, cars, etc...). $20 seems pretty reasonable to me.

If it still seems to steep, I'm sure Paradox will run sales from time to time anyway.

[Koniving]

Racerxintegra2k, on 25 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

$20 seems incredibly pricey for what we are getting. Buildings that blow up, 2 light mechs(Light mech class is pretty worthless), new vehicles and new ecounter are all meh. The only thing that's of value .. is more flash points, certainly not enough imo to justify half the price of the base game !

Compare mwo's pricetag of 70 for one new mech with paintjobs.

[MechaBattler]

The maps are the only thing that seem worth it. ECM is nice, but wasn't that supposed to be in the base game? Along with the Raven? Now we're being charged for it? : /

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 25 April 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

The maps are the only thing that seem worth it. ECM is nice, but wasn't that supposed to be in the base game? Along with the Raven? Now we're being charged for it? : /

ECM didn't really fit with the time period, though. It's possible it existed as the game starts either 3024/25 (for the after tutorial tidbit) so...the Raven 1x would be a new machine with extremely few existing as production begins.

But as a post main story it fits. Raven isn't unseen so no reason for it to have been removed if already done.

Technically ecm doesn't truly exist until 3045....so hard to say why it would have been in the game before...

Same for BAP

The Raven 1x has a 7.5 ton system that does both but are quite inferior.

[JordonBrooker]

Looks decent. Even more so if you got your season pass on sale.

[Racerxintegra2k]

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 April 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

You listed off a lot of assets to me. With all that plus new maps, a new ECM mechanic, and a ton of new building assets to fill out those city maps (sky scrapers, billboards, cars, etc...). $20 seems pretty reasonable to me.

If it still seems to steep, I'm sure Paradox will run sales from time to time anyway.

Its a matter of opinion, but 2 mechs and a couple map features for $20 isnt somthing i'm willing to keep doing. Roguetech added a lot of mechs ... for free.

[jss78]

I'll determine my opinion on the price/value after I see the urban environment in action. Hopefully it looks like a lot of effort went into it.

2 mechs does feel skimpy. To be honest, I forget how many would feasibly be available from MWO. Which I guess means:

• not already in HBS BT
  
• in-timeline
  
• not added in MWO only recently
  
• not locked in the HG lawsuit until recently

I feel like I'm the only who cares about this, but I wish they'd explore the combined arms aspect more. The vehicles feel like they should be a fairly modest development effort compared to 'mechs. Why only three? And the selection mystifies me. I bet they could've asked a hundred people for a favourite pick,and no-one would've named the Rotunda. Meanwhile we don't have the Vedette in the game.