23 replies to this topic

[Makenzie71]

Isn't how much sustained damage you can deliver more critical than how much you can deliver all at once?

[Cyanogene]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 16 May 2019 - 05:43 PM.
unconstructive, replies removed

[Aidan Crenshaw]

There's DPS and sustained DPS. And depending on the heat dissipation, both can vary greatly. That's also the reason why PGI does not provide such stats - because they are situational. They depend on the biome you're dropping in, for example.
Also, the Firepower stat is not to be confused with Alpha. Check the Firepower of a PIR-1 and you'll know what I mean.

[Curccu]

Cyanogene, on 15 May 2019 - 04:21 AM, said:

[Redacted]

No offence much but that is just ******* stupid comment.

but because you like to do extra math count the DPS of this https://mech.nav-alp...#a7555a3b_DWF-W and btw. I have -11,25% cooldown from skill tree...

So most of us can do the math just takes some time... or PGI could do 1 small line of code and show result in UI.

Edited by draiocht, 16 May 2019 - 05:45 PM.
Quote Clean-up

[Sergeant Destroy]

How would an average dps value of lets say 3 totally different weapons help?

[Makenzie71]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 15 May 2019 - 04:37 AM, said:

There's DPS and sustained DPS. And depending on the heat dissipation, both can vary greatly. That's also the reason why PGI does not provide such stats - because they are situational. They depend on the biome you're dropping in, for example.
Also, the Firepower stat is not to be confused with Alpha. Check the Firepower of a PIR-1 and you'll know what I mean.

Machine guns rotaries skew the number but everything else is straight damage. If you have two AC10’s, for example your firepower is 20.

DPS is not situational. The IS AC10’s base stat is 4.44dps. It doesn’t matter if you can hold the bang switch down infdefinitely or if after three rounds your mech explodes...it still did 4.44dps. If worrying about what you can sustain factors in then the firepower rating currently shown is just as worthless...my stalker has a firepower rating just under 100, but i blow up after five seconds snd holding the fire button.

Sergeant Destroy, on 15 May 2019 - 06:19 AM, said:

How would an average dps value of lets say 3 totally different weapons help?

How is alpha value helpful? An atlas running an ac20, 4x srm6, and two med lasers has a firepower rating of 78 (assuming base stats), and it looks impressive...but really it’s only about 21.04 dps. I tend to cut them apart in my nightstar running two lb10’s and six mpl’s...a firepower rating of 56. The firepower rating based on alpha makes it look like the atlas has a huge edge...78v56, but the reality is that the nightstar’s dps rating is pretty comparable at 19.44dps. Having an 80+ frepower rating doesn’t mean anything when you might be waiting 6 seconds to do it again.

[Sergeant Destroy]

The firepower value tells what happens if you fire all weapons at once.
The average dps of, lets say, a heavy large laser, an ultra 5 and 2 gauss rifles tells you **** all.

[Makenzie71]

Sergeant Destroy, on 15 May 2019 - 07:05 AM, said:

The firepower value tells what happens if you fire all weapons at once.
The average dps of, lets say, a heavy large laser, an ultra 5 and 2 gauss rifles tells you **** all.

First, you wouldn’t be able to fire all those at once anyway, and that combination is 10.42dps (assuming base stats and that i did the math right in my head). Firepower rating for that build would be 51...but you’d only be able to do 51 damage every 5.75 seconds...which is considerably less than your rated dps. What’s more is with that build you chose weapons that have really long cooldown times...so your firepower and dps aren’t so heavily changed.

But what about two heavy gauss and six spl’s? Assuming base stats that’s a firepower rating of 86 damage every five seconds...average is 14.2dps. But real time dps is 18.76dps.

Thing is firepower rating has to wait until you can fire everything. Dps is the work you’re doing in resl time.

[Sergeant Destroy]

Your dps idea either works for all available weapons or it doesnt at all.(It doesnt...)
Jesus ******* christ, you better stop here....

[evilauthor]

DPS only matters if you're going to stand in front of the enemy and pour fire into them as fast as you can. Which as anyone who isn't a newbie can tell you is a recipe for getting shot to pieces in just a few seconds barring situational advantage (aka, you have SEVERAL people including yourself pouring fire into one or a few enemies).

However, if you play like most people where you fire, duck into cover while your weapons cool down, and then poke out to fire some more ALPHA firepower matters more because you're only exposing yourself for the few moments your weapons are firing.

So yeah, firepower is situational. Sometimes you're pushing through open ground and need DPS. Sometimes you're trading from cover and thus need Alpha to maximize your poking effectiveness.

Fun fact: An Inner Sphere standard AC/5 has better DPS than an IS Gauss Rifle. But in a poking trade combat, the Gauss Rifle is superior because the AC/5 needs three times the exposure time (where you're taking damage) to do the same damage as a single Gauss shot. That difference in exposure time can make the difference between killing your enemy and being killed by them.

[Makenzie71]

All weapons have a rated dps.

[Snowhawk]

Here is a list with all dps-datas of Mwo-weapons: https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment and in the mechlab you can see the dps of your builds, good old smurfy-lab!

[Makenzie71]

evilauthor, on 15 May 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

DPS only matters if you're going to stand in front of the enemy and pour fire into them as fast as you can. Which as anyone who isn't a newbie can tell you is a recipe for getting shot to pieces in just a few seconds barring situational advantage (aka, you have SEVERAL people including yourself pouring fire into one or a few enemies).

However, if you play like most people where you fire, duck into cover while your weapons cool down, and then poke out to fire some more ALPHA firepower matters more because you're only exposing yourself for the few moments your weapons are firing.

So yeah, firepower is situational. Sometimes you're pushing through open ground and need DPS. Sometimes you're trading from cover and thus need Alpha to maximize your poking effectiveness.

Fun fact: An Inner Sphere standard AC/5 has better DPS than an IS Gauss Rifle. But in a poking trade combat, the Gauss Rifle is superior because the AC/5 needs three times the exposure time (where you're taking damage) to do the same damage as a single Gauss shot. That difference in exposure time can make the difference between killing your enemy and being killed by them.

I get that know your alpha value is important for those who play peek and poke builds, but there really are a fair number of players that rely on sustained damage. My ac2 spam and lb20/srm builds are just so...either hold fire or fire/twist/fire/twist/etc. my light and medium laser builds are peek and poke but those builds the difference between alpha and dps is slight.

I’m certainly not saying that the alpha value isn’t useful information, only asking if there was a known reason why they chose to show alpha over dps (or why not just show both?).

Snowhawk, on 15 May 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

Here is a list with all dps-datas of Mwo-weapons: https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment and in the mechlab you can see the dps of your builds, good old smurfy-lab!

I like smurfy...but i’ve had trouble accounting for skill tree and mech quirks in it. So many people build their stuff in smurfy that i find myself wondering why pgi didn’t look at it when redesigning the mech lab.

[Curccu]

Makenzie71, on 15 May 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

I like smurfy...but i’ve had trouble accounting for skill tree and mech quirks in it. So many people build their stuff in smurfy that i find myself wondering why pgi didn’t look at it when redesigning the mech lab.

MechDB accounts quirks if they are up to date on site, not sure on that.
Would be awesome if it would account skilltree also.

[Ruccus]

For sustained damage builds use the heat management number as a guidline, though jump jets and rockets can throw that number out. For sustained brawling builds I have a course in the training grounds I use to help with my builds in terms of speed, sustained firepower, and ammunition quantity.

I drop into Tourmaline Desert and immediately hang a left. I go through the gap to the back of the Catapult and core out its backside (the heat level here after coring the Catapult gives me a guide of how hot to expect the rest of the run will be). I then go right and position myself in front of the Atlas to test my sustained firepower. My rules are to fire everything non-stop (avoiding ghost heat if the build has that possibility) and I can use one cool shot if necessary. I want to be able to core out the CT of the Atlas from the front before overheating (I can overheat on the last shot). On less brawly builds I'll just judge how good/bad it is for overheating so I can be aware during a match. The rest of the course is mainly about speed and ammunition quantity. Go past the Atlas to the Jenner and kill it CT, around to the Centurion and kill it CT, down to the Cataphract and kill it CT, over to the Awesome and kill it CT, up and around to the Cicada and kill it through taking out both legs, and finally core out the back of the Commando.

I'll check how much ammo I have left after the run (or whether I ran out before the Commando or Cicada) so I can add or remove ammo in the build, and judge how long it took me to complete the course (closer range builds I want a quicker time indicating I have the speed to compensate for my lack of range), so I can tweak my build accordingly so I'm comfortable with it in a match. That's what I'd suggest for a DPS build rather than relying on numbers

Edited by Ruccus, 15 May 2019 - 11:20 AM.

[Sergeant Destroy]

Phyrce, on 15 May 2019 - 11:12 AM, said:

Prime example of the community right here. Person asks a simple question gets directly insulted in the first response. I am sure you will get far with that attitude in life.

Dunno, how someone, that obviously played this for years, can`t figure out why a general dps value for builds is nonsense, is beyond me.

[VonBruinwald]

Makenzie71, on 15 May 2019 - 03:43 AM, said:

Isn't how much sustained damage you can deliver more critical than how much you can deliver all at once?

You're forgetting about the players, the vast majority don't brawl and play poke-an-hide instead. In that situation when you're hiding behind a rock and poking out to alpha, alpha is more important the DPS. The flip side is if you are one of the few players who has a spine, when you push their position they fire one shot and run away like... well... a coward. As long as they don't escape you can out DPS them and rake in the salt from their tears. Bonus points if they pop themselves and try blame someone else.

[I S O T O P E]

Use Smurfy’s Mechlab. It does this all for you. DPS will be shown on the left-hand pane.

[Makenzie71]

eewoo1, on 15 May 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

Use Smurfy’s Mechlab. It does this all for you. DPS will be shown on the left-hand pane.

I like smurfy but, as said before, i’ve had issues getting it to account for auirks and skills. Great for base stats, then i get generally get close with a little math.

[Curccu]

eewoo1, on 15 May 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

Use Smurfy’s Mechlab. It does this all for you. DPS will be shown on the left-hand pane.

Yep 3rd party website should not be needed to do something like this.

and if mech got some quirks or you are using this thing called skilltree smurfy does not give you correct value.