12 replies to this topic

[Tanek]

Looking for some advice. My friends and I are starting a Succession Wars era campaign. What are some of the best mechs available during that time? I have plans to buy a banshee and at least one shadow hawk.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Are you looking at roughly 3rd Succession ~ 4th Succession War Era? Like year 3000 ~ 3033?

Best mechs are rather subjective really, so you are probably going to get a fair bit of opinions. In any case, my picks are as follows...

Light:

Firestarter, Excellent support Light. It's fast, decent armored, can jump, and carries 2 Medium Lasers a long with fair amount of Flamers and MGs for anti-infantry if you are having them in your game. Even without infantry, Flamers are good at adding heat to a target mech which can be nice.

Medium:

Kintaro, A good short range medium It carries 3 SRM6s for punch a long with 2 Medium Lasers and a lone LRM5. It has solid armor and a good movement profile, it just runs a bit hot and has no JJs.

Centurion, A nice trooper mech. Not too fast, and the A version is a little light on armor, but it has excellent firepower. It carries an A/C10, LRM10, and 2 Medium Lasers. It packs a heavy mech like punch. You could run an AL model that exchanges the A/C10 for a Large Laser. Not as potent, but I believe is carries a bit more armor.

Heavy:

Warhammer is always a solid choice. It has 2 PPCs, 2 Medium Lasers, 1 SRM6, 2 Small Lasers, 2 MGs. It has good armor, moves well, and cools decently. I may like the Marauder more visually, but the Warhammer performance wise is a beast of a heavy.

Archer: Solid indirect fire support mech. It is like a Catapult but with arms . If you need a fire support mech, it is great for the job. It moves well and has good armor, it is just a bit hot.

P.S. Thunderbolt is nice too

Assault:

Highlander. It is powerful, nimble, and has solid firepower (especially the A/C20 variant). It carries JJs for maneuverability and is known to be quite the fearsome DFA mech.

Awesome The 8Q is a triple PPC sniper. It is quite the scourge of this era. It can still be rather hot, so some trigger control is important (plus parking in some water might not hurt either).


As a side note: The Shadow Hawk and Banshee are both over-engined in the era you are going to play in.

The Shadow Hawk tends to have small weapons due to it's larger engine (hence the A/C5, LRM5, SRM2, and Medium Laser. The 2D adds a bit more firepower, but really reduces armor.

The Banshee is also speed over firepower. It is just too fast for it's own good. There is a solid Banshee option though in the 3S. If I was going to run a Banshee, I'd pick that one. It is a 3026 mech though, so make sure your campaign takes place after that date. I just wouldn't pick the common 3E version. Again, too much engine, not enough weapons for an Assault.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 14 May 2019 - 05:06 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

All depends on how you are playing.

You looking for Tonnage efficiency, C-bill efficiency, or Battle Value Efficiency? As they all have their own "good picks" at that time period. It would also depend on how you pick your maps as some 'Mechs like the King Crab are going to be more of a situational pick depending on how much terrain you play with in your maps.

For tonnage efficiency, I'm a fan of the following:

• Wolfhound (Good mix of speed, armor, and laser firepower.)
  
• Panther ( Pocket PPC sniper)
  
• Javelin ( Probably the most effective late-game SRM crit seeker if you use it well.)
  
• Whitworth ( Most effective LRM / Medium mix at the lower tonnages.)
  
• Vindicator (Its a Panther that can mix it up at closer ranges. Strong Leg armor makes it a really good option for a pocket DFA mech.)
  
• Trebuchet (Effectively a 50 ton Catapult)
  
• Crab ( One of the most efficient energy boats in this era, especially as a pocket sniper with the dual Large Lasers)
  
• Champion (Good payload and speed for it's tonnage but a bit frail.)
  
• Thunderbolt (Probably the most well rounded 65 tonner for this time period.)
  
• Grasshopper (My favorite heavy to play in the Sucession war period. What it lacks in up-front punch it makes up for in mobility, durrability, and sustainability. Also easily one of the best Melee heavies with it's mobility, weight, and a healthy amount of weapons in it's torso.)
  
• Warhammer ( Powerful Weapon platform, but a bit light on armor. Weapons make it hit above it's weight, but be cautions about it attracting too much firepower.)
  
• Orion (Basically a Mini Atlas)
  
• Thug (Its effectively a min-maxed Warhammer for only 10 more tons for a Warhammer.)
  
• Awesome (Heavy assault firepower on the lightest assault frame.)
  
• Stalker (Just a solid Assault weapons platform. If you learn to manage the heat curve.)

BV efficiency:

• Jenner (Its price is almost identical to the Javelin, but has more speed, and more burst firepower. Not the easiest 'Mech to use due to poor heat management and paper thin armor, but highly efficient for what you pay for if you know how to exploit it's speed.)
  
• Centurion (Most come in at sub 900 points which makes them very points efficient for a medium 'Mech. They are a bit light on armor, but tend to make up for it with their versitile payload. Just don't try to tank too many shots with them.)
  
• Wolverine (What you loose in firepower, you make up for in mobility, Armor, and Melee potential, very efficient for what you pay for BV wise.)
  
• Shadow Hawk ( You loose a bit of JJ mobility compared to the Wolverine, but you make up for it in weapon's payload, even if it's bracketed load-out takes some getting used to. All for only about 100 points more then a Wolfhound )
  
• Dragon (Its a 60 tonner that comes in at a similar cost to many optimized medium 'Mechs. Its Speed, Range, and Armor makes it a resilient target to take down, and its a pretty nasty heavy charge / melee mech for the points you pay.)
  
• Jagermech (It has similar long range offensive profiles to the Catapult C1, and comes in at almost half the cost. It has paper thin armor, but if you can manage it well, the Mech can pump out quite a bit of sustained ranged firepower.)
  
• Charger (Laugh all you want at the pop gun configuration, but it gets you an 80 tonner for about the same cost as a Wolfhound. Use it for what it was made for, Charging, and Melee, and you get a fairly resilient "bullet sponge" for the rest of your force that can do some nasty stuff if your opponent isn't prepared for it. Never underestimate it's 64 Charge damage potential.)

Keep in mind with BV games, that BV efficient 'Mechs often come with drawbacks that need to be played around, but if your play them right, you will often find that your overall force will often have more overall tonnage / weapons / armor on the field compared to an opponent that only takes highly efficient Mech builds.

I haven't played enough long-term campaigns to really have an opinion on what are the more efficient C-bill 'Mechs out there.

[Karl Streiger]

In the "introtech" era you only find a compromise between mobility, firepower, heat capacity and armor.

No Mech does this as well as the Wolverine 6M. It is moderate fast, very nimble, well armored and packs a punch at medium to short ranges.

Shadow Hawk does not have so great variants. The Banshee well either choose the BNC-3M with 2 PPCs its well armed and still very mobile - the 3S is to slow and all that guns only help to overheat faster - ok the BNC-3Q with its AC20 plus 95t kicking and punching is also a force to recon with.

So change from the SHD to the WVR-6M and take the Banshee 3M paint them purple and join the Free Worlds League.

My most sucessfull Mechs however are the Lyran Commando 2D (its not that great on the paper - but always wrecks havoc) - and the Zeus 6S (again not so great on paper)

You should also look at the Intro Tech SLDF Mechs like the Flashman or the mentioned Thug. Those beast are heavy armored and decent armed.

(also if you have read some novels, keep your hands away from Mechs that should be good.... the Wolfhound for example is a heat trap, the Hatchetman is armored with paper tissues) Other that are bad in novels are rather good - the Catapract for example - one of the best heavy Mechs available, or the Charger A5 (when you want to kill something fast than you need that AC20 in combination with 12 SRMs.

Don't take 3/5/0 Mechs if you don't have to

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 May 2019 - 10:35 PM.

[Tanek]

We're looking somewhere between the 3rd and 4th succession wars, so we should have all tech available before clan-tech enters the game.

The games will be based on BV but the inventory allowed each player is based on C-Bills, with salvaging mechs from other players being a thing. Like battletech pogs.

We just rolled for our starting funds and I'm sitting on 40mil for my little merc unit. I'll give you guys an update when I decide what mechs I end up purchasing.

P.S. Most of the group is new, so we're sticking to the battlemech manual, and leaving the tanks and stuff at home.

[Koniving]

Tanek, on 17 May 2019 - 12:39 AM, said:

We're looking somewhere between the 3rd and 4th succession wars, so we should have all tech available before clan-tech enters the game.

The games will be based on BV but the inventory allowed each player is based on C-Bills, with salvaging mechs from other players being a thing. Like battletech pogs.

We just rolled for our starting funds and I'm sitting on 40mil for my little merc unit. I'll give you guys an update when I decide what mechs I end up purchasing.

P.S. Most of the group is new, so we're sticking to the battlemech manual, and leaving the tanks and stuff at home.

"All tech" would be War of 3039-onward, rather than Succession Wars. Most of the advanced tech isn't introduced until post-3030, and much of it doesn't show up until 3039-onward. 4th Succession War lasts 3028 to 3030. That's still intro-tech.

Now, if you were aiming for First Succession War, then you'd have "ALL" the tech (including stuff not available post 3039 and pre-invasion). In 3rd succession war, most of the tech is completely gone. In 4th, well there's a few more mechs and a morsel of additional tech (like the 7.5 ton ECM BAP hybrid known as "EWE" Electronic Warfare Equipment), but that's it.

Also rather than buying, unless playing out a "loan," why not inherit? (You could skip to TL;DR to go right down to something handy for fairly but randomly helping your group get their mechs quickly).

Spoiler

Mechwarrior RPG (or more modern, Classic Battletech RPG), has a set of rules for inheriting a machine. Of course, this leaves what you actually use completely up to chance as opposed to simply picking and choosing the greatest starting cheese you can possibly get your hands on / tweaking the greatest cheese you can make.
It is possible, although extremely unlikely, to inherit a 90+ ton mech. Although unless starting with a substantial sum good enough to fund a minor planetary government's military budget, like 40,000,000 , starting with something like a Banshee is a sure fire way to go broke. Been there, done that against the bot. Could never make enough money to sustain the machine in the generated missions. I'd frequently have to sell salvage I gathered just to get ahead and reputation wasn't building fast enough to get bigger pay outs as soon as I needed them. Then the unlikely happened. I didn't repair my small laser in order to save some money. I got swarmed by infantry. They got into the cockpit. And I was shot in my chair.

So what is 40 million cbills?

Spoiler

Considering the typical soldier makes 250 cbills a month, and 250 cbills in 3025 converted to real life USD in 2016's rate is $2,725, 40 mil cbills is $436,000,000 USD.

For perspective: In 2016, the US Department of Defense budget was $580,300,000,000 (note this doesn't include total military expenditure, which is 611 billion).
Israel's 2016 military expenditures was 18 billion. These are sums gathered from taxes on 323.4 million in the US and 8.546 million in Israel.
Not sure on the size of your unit, but damn they are swimming in money, even minor Steiner royalty isn't treating that kind of cash lightly. Wish them luck.

---

Digging through Classic Battletech RPG, it doesn't get into random mech lottery. Sadly. That wasted a bit of time, but typically each individual in a unit starts with 1k cbills to make starting funds. That's $10,900 USD per person in unit, in addition to starting vehicles in varying states of disrepair. Assuming each player has multiple characters, welp it pools.

Much prefer Mechwarrior (RPG), BT RPG focuses so heavily on generating the character's life prior to the start of the game that the first 59 pages are dedicated to it...

Now Mechwarrior RPG:
I know you said you're just getting into the mechs so other than an info dump, you can skip down to TL;DR.
Page 25 gets into creating a unit.
Page 28 gets into creating initial assets (facilities, units, etc.) based on the size of the unit and modifiers. These come in the form of credits, and a Davion-affiliated merc would enjoy a 20% increase in credits, while an unaffiliated merc would have -80% cut in credits.

Gets into everything from initial storeroom goodies, etc..
For each remaining credit point after setting up initial facilities, supplies, etc.., the unit can have 1,000 cbills.

A Steiner unit of the following, without expending any credits for facilities, supplies, etc..

Quote

For example, a full company unit of Steiner regulars has
an air lance but no DropShips under its control, one Scout, and
five 'Techs with a Technician Skill Level of 3+. The unit's base
credit total is 210 + 25 + 10 + 25 = 270 credits. Multiplying 270
by the Steiner modifier of+ 10% yields a final result of 270 x 1.1
= 297 credits.

297 credits used to buy cbills would net 297,000 cbills starting capital. Granted this is for infantry with technicians (possibly for vehicles).
If the above unit had four mechs, it would have 297+15+15+15+15 = 357 which if you sold all of those credits for just cbills, you'd have 357,000 cbills to your unit's name (this is in addition to your mechs, but you'd have no facilities or backup supplies what-so-ever of your own). Throw a dropship in there and you'd get an additional 25 credits. But this system basically lets you pick and choose your people, units, and then "here's the credits to determine what you start with in terms of mech repair stores, aerospace units, backup mechs, personal equipment, house commissions, titles and grants, and finally how much money you have at the start. (No matter what you have, every unit starts broke but with lots of stuff built up over time. Though one needs to remember the money we earn in MWO per match, is what an entire unit would earn per contract...)

---

TL;DR
Ah, here we go.
Mech assignment table.

Perhaps, at least, this can help you determine the tonnages to go for with a bit of randomness..



The page is edited to force the left side (the important side) onto the screen by copy/pasting what's below the line up to the right.
Although the CP which can be used to help boost the character's utility in an RPG is likely useless in your game, perhaps each digit you're willing to sacrifice could lead to parts of your base or supplies, since you've already determined your astronomical starting capital.

(Granted I know your starting capital probably also means you have nothing else to start with, and that capital is what you're going to use to choose your mech, equipment stores, etc.)
But, just some thoughts.

Edited by Koniving, 17 May 2019 - 11:18 AM.

[Tanek]

Just an update as I'm still agonizing over what mechs to take. We're still organizing the campaign. Only myself and the organizer game master?) have some Battletech experience, and I don't have a ton of campaign experience outside of megamek. Everyone else, this is a new game/system for them, so we're trying to keep it as simple as possible and to as few books as possible. So there are two rules we set up to make the campaign a little bit easier for everyone involved.

1. All mechs are from TRO: Succession Wars (why i said time line was loose-ish)
2. Games will use BV to ensure both sides use a balanced force.

We're really using 3 books, the Battlemech Manual, TRO Succession Wars, and Campaign Operations. Sorry if there was any confusion before.

Thinking I might grab one assault, and keep it off the table, just to use it as a pocket threat. Then grab a bunch of med and lights.

[Koniving]

Fair enough, I figure you might be able to at least use the TLDR aspect, which has a way of dice rolling for weight class. That'd help cut down the mech selection substantially. I don't have the Succession Wars book, but I figure once you cut it down to a weight class, there's ten or fewer mechs to pick from. You'd need to modify it, of course. Or come up with your own. But perhaps it could help you narrow your choices down.

[Tanek]

So build two lances with the 40mil. I went a little too heavy i feel, and might drop the 2 heavies for more med/lights.

This leaves me with 1,209,620 C-bills left over for repairs and such. Thoughts?


Merc's
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unit Tons BV Mechwarrior G/P Adj BV
Locust LCT-3V 20 490 4/5 490
Commando COM-1B 25 616 4/5 616
Centurion CN9-AH 50 945 4/5 945
Centurion CN9-AL 50 1,057 4/5 1,057
Trebuchet TBT-7M 50 1,348 4/5 1,348
Catapult CPLT-C3 65 1,368 4/5 1,368
Thunderbolt TDR-5SS 65 1,337 4/5 1,337
Banshee BNC-3S 95 1,751 4/5 1,751


8,912

[Karl Streiger]

The TRO Succession Wars have some great machines, afaik including Koshei, Firebee and vonRohrs.

The problem is you lack mobility in the ranges between the Commando and the Centurions. Especially the AH (while better then the A is lacking armor and the AC20 means it will become a prime target.

Also the Banshee 3S doesn't fit well, it's a pure assault mech it's not a good complement for your force.
If you really want an assault 4/6 is necessary (Chager A5 for the 20 and change the CN9-AH into a brawler like Enforcer or Vindicator(,to support the 5SS)

[Tanek]

Honestly, i wasn't too sure about the banshee. I only wanted it for two reasons. The first being its an assault, and the second is it has the "bad reputation" quirk, so if one of the other players managed to salvage it off me, they couldn't sell it for much (i also like the model). I'm thinking of swapping it out for an ON1-VA or K, DRG-5N, or a BL-7-KNT. As for the Cents, they're some of my favorite mechs, but I understand their use can be limited. I'll most likely keep one (the AL for ammo concerns) and drop the AH, I don't have a good idea atm as to what I want to switch out for it. I'll have more money left over after swapping the banshee for the orion, so maybe I could grab another heavy? I'm flexible on the 2 cents and I agree the banshee was a bad idea.

Also we're rolling for pilot stats, so ignore those entries for now.

[Karl Streiger]

Well the Banshee is much better than its reputation. The 3S is one of the best available pure blooded assault mechs available. But for coherency of speed the 4/6 should be the minimum.
Think about using a Q, M or MC instead.
Sure heat is a issue on all of them and firepower not so great but a slapping or a kicking of them is frightening. Most Mediums might suffer a critical hit after a kick. So yes take the 3Q with tons of ammo even a force in a campaign


Or you are in for a surprise the assault version of the Zeus the 6A. With a trio of heavy SRMs the 6A is a dangerous in fighter and nobody would expect this from a Zeus.

Also, when you are not limited by Random Mech Assigment Tables, you can optimize your lance into fire support (LCT does the spotting at extreme range (keep max distance, it's a scout not a Striker like the Commando. Have some LRMs (well you have a lot of them already)
Also have tin openers like PPCs, Large Lasers and both big ACs combined with several smaller weapons (ideally SRMs or Lazor Arrays (BattleMaster).

The Charger A5, Thug or Hatamuschi are build around this principle. And the A5 Charger can kill or cripple some Mechs in a single turn

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 May 2019 - 08:51 AM.

[Koniving]

I know you guys are doing this on tabletop, which I think is great. I personally don't have that luxury, so I do my tabletop digitally with Megamek. Having the rules toggled on, enjoying things like simultaneous turns, and bot assistance to help control large fields makes it pretty wild. But... it lacks the personal touch of tabletop. I have wondered what it'd be like to combine the streamlined speed of Megamek and MM HQ with gathering around a table with the GM's screen on a projector against the wall using hires maps.

Still, I know that many also use it to streamline the setup, as it can very quickly be used to establish characters, generate names, do the math for buying (for example have it set for the year you want, 40 mil cbills injected from Rich Uncle [default prompt though you can change it to whatever you want] and it would then roll availability when you go to look for mechs from wherever you are [if you're just setting up you can instantly jump around] and then buy mechs in whatever state they might be in) then print up sheets.

You're already pretty deep into your start now so you probably shouldn't worry about it anytime soon, but perhaps it could help you significantly cut back the setup time on your next campaign or perhaps after your first scenario concludes (turning what's apparently consuming days just to prepare for the first scenario into about 20 minutes or less [probably a lot less since you're likely not worrying about repair crews, business administrators, infantry, vehicles, logistics, etc.]) so that when you go off to the start the next one you can really just get right into it and enjoy it.

For the GM its pretty handy too (Megamek HQ specifically), as you can setup campaigns, reward info, etc.well in advance and take on each scenario as it comes, indicating how the battle turned out with a series of options for the state of machines, who is injured, who has been captured or killed, etc., how much of the reward was actually earned (for partial failure, or trying but being forced to abandon the mission), and so on.

----

Side note, I agree with Karl about the Locust in a fire support lance. Its fragile. I remember this one time with Lordred where I encountered a Locust. First volley blew off its leg and the six lasers I fired were reduced by 4 units of power. After a comical trip-skid-and-flop, I just left it there to find other enemies. 7+ in game minutes later, I came back and killed it while running from a Battlemaster while myself jumpjetting up and down with one leg, one side torso and one arm in a Nova with no torso twist. It probably didn't help that the Locust pilot couldn't get out since it landed upside down, so that entire time the pilot was trapped and dangling upside down, or at the very least unable to leave his cockpit. Lordred more than got me back by humiliating my Dire Wolf.. Never kool-aid manned in front of a Battlemaster and Shadowhawk. The two of them kicked the same leg and destroyed it instantly (by breaking all four actuators).

Then again, against an Atlas with a pilot that had no experience (8, 8) I've had two Locust 1Vs take it down without ever using more than cruising speeds, with the killing blow being a stomp to the chest. Still, took a lot more damage than I should including losing an arm.

The trouble with anything is the faster you go, the more useless your weapons are... yet the faster you go, the more useless their weapons are. Fast scout-and-spotter's probably never gonna get hit if he makes sure to mark and run.