44 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

One of the popular rework for TAG that proliferated here is that the TAG would make the LRMs pseudo-ppfld by guiding the LRM volleys at a specific component. Another one I heard is that the TAG would override missile volley and would go directly to the pointed target -- to steer the volley.

But here's a different approach:what if TAG (de)buff would remove the need of constant missile lock to guide to the target?

This would mean that even though the missile-boat couldn't hold the missile-lock, the spotter would be able to keep the LRM volleys homing so long that there's a valid TAG debuff on the target.

Note that Missile boats would still need a completed missile-lock to fire a homing volley, the spotters however could just hold the missile lock for you. Personal use however isn't necessarily moot, because it should defeat Stealth Armor, so long as you could keep the tag at the target.

This is a more of cooperative take for the Missile-Steering concept.

Discuss.

Also: Yes, TAG needs to be invisible in standard vision, but visible in Thermal and Night.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 May 2019 - 04:44 PM.

[Willard Phule]

The6thMessenger, on 16 May 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

One of the popular rework for TAG that proliferated here is that the TAG would make the LRMs pseudo-ppfld by guiding the LRM volleys at a specific component. Another one I heard is that the TAG would override missile volley and would go directly to the pointed target -- to steer the volley.

But here's a different approach:what if TAG (de)buff would remove the need of constant missile lock to guide to the target?

This would mean that even though the missile-boat couldn't hold the missile-lock, the spotter would be able to keep the LRM volleys homing so long that there's a valid TAG debuff on the target.

Note that Missile boats would still need a completed missile-lock to fire a homing volley, the spotters however could just hold the missile lock for you. Personal use however isn't necessarily moot, because it should defeat Stealth Armor, so long as you could keep the tag at the target.

This is a more of cooperative take for the Missile-Steering concept.

Discuss.

On tabletop, TAG simply negates the bonus you get to your target number the other guy has to hit on 2D6. Simple as that. How about missiles change their trajectory to the most beneficial when tagged, and they home in on where the tag is placed at time of impact?

[Mystere]

I prefer the PPFLD effect. It's also not less cooperative than your suggestion.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 16 May 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

I prefer the PPFLD effect. It's also not less cooperative than your suggestion.

This is the "steering" im talking about.

[HenryFA]

toggle tag! the dream!

[LordNothing]

i liked the way it was implemented in living legends, but without the full on electronic warfare implementation it would be a very hard sell. one guy with a tag could wield an entire team's worth of missiles and the lermers wouldn't even have to get locks. without things like passive radar and no free c3 everywhere to temper it, would render it a tad op.

i do like the invisible tag idea that living legends had. infrared beam would be invisible without the use of vision modes. would make scouting a little more viable. especially if missiles chase the beam.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 May 2019 - 06:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

Willard Phule, on 16 May 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

On tabletop, TAG simply negates the bonus you get to your target number the other guy has to hit on 2D6. Simple as that. How about missiles change their trajectory to the most beneficial when tagged, and they home in on where the tag is placed at time of impact?

problem with using tabletop as a basis is that it was a major abstraction of a system that could be fully fleshed out a lot better in a real time environment. rather than a stat or bonus that represents a laser guidance system being in use you could have a laser guidance system.

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 16 May 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

One of the popular rework for TAG that proliferated here is that the TAG would make the LRMs pseudo-ppfld by guiding the LRM volleys at a specific component. Another one I heard is that the TAG would override missile volley and would go directly to the pointed target -- to steer the volley.

But here's a different approach:what if TAG (de)buff would remove the need of constant missile lock to guide to the target?

This would mean that even though the missile-boat couldn't hold the missile-lock, the spotter would be able to keep the LRM volleys homing so long that there's a valid TAG debuff on the target.

Note that Missile boats would still need a completed missile-lock to fire a homing volley, the spotters however could just hold the missile lock for you. Personal use however isn't necessarily moot, because it should defeat Stealth Armor, so long as you could keep the tag at the target.

This is a more of cooperative take for the Missile-Steering concept.

Discuss.

Also: Yes, TAG needs to be invisible in standard vision, but visible in Thermal and Night.

I would still very much prefer TAG (And NARC) leading all the missiles to a specific component that is being painted, ignoring spread.. That would greatly improve a Lurmer's desire to use one own's TAG, and would make LRMs and ATMs that much more competitive..

Also, I still advocate that lock-on mechanics need to be easier for IDF then they are now, and LRM bending needs to make a comeback..

Edited by Vellron2005, 17 May 2019 - 12:01 AM.

[Curccu]

Vellron2005, on 17 May 2019 - 12:01 AM, said:

I would still very much prefer TAG (And NARC) leading all the missiles to a specific component that is being painted, ignoring spread.. That would greatly improve a Lurmer's desire to use one own's TAG, and would make LRMs and ATMs that much more competitive..

This would make them totally OP.

[Vellron2005]

Curccu, on 17 May 2019 - 12:40 AM, said:

This would make them totally OP.

I don't think it would.. Since there would still be torso twisting, and cover and all that.. And lets look at all the steps needed to achieve a hit..

You need to spend time to lock a target, spend more time for the missiles to arrive... and you do a LRM 80 alpha (which not many mechs can actually field, so more like LRM60)

Compared to a 2xHGR 50 point alpha, where you spend time before the shot.. not that OP, is it?

it would definitely require testing.. and if in-game performance showed it was OP, it could always be like a PPC shot, damaging tagged/painted component and surrounding components..

Edited by Vellron2005, 17 May 2019 - 01:30 AM.

[Curccu]

Vellron2005, on 17 May 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

I don't think it would.. Since there would still be torso twisting, and cover and all that.. And lets look at all the steps needed to achieve a hit..

You need to spend time to lock a target, spend more time for the missiles to arrive... and you do a LRM 80 alpha (which not many mechs can actually field, so more like LRM60)

Compared to a 2xHGR 50 point alpha, where you spend time before the shot.. not that OP, is it?

it would definitely require testing.. and if in-game performance showed it was OP, it could always be like a PPC shot, damaging tagged/painted component and surrounding components..

Well in previous post you didn't talk anything about lock.
HGR and has damage fall of with range requires LOS and so on, for example stealth TAG commando on could be stupid lethal with few LRM boats.. 2x Awesome-8Rs can dish out ~40 DPS if all that damage would go to torso (pretty easy to paint with tag to general torso area) mechs would melt stupid fast.

and you also mentioned NARC doing same... that **** would be even crazier.

[Captain Caveman DE]

I'd agree that TAG could use a 'selfish buff', that only the carrying mech benefits from (or just work 'better' against ecm/stealth).

otherwise it's strictly a 'bring it for the team'-weapon.. which encourages -nobody- to bring it to QP. you'd relegate it to FW just like you did with narcs. and boy, it's boring as frack for everybody except those narcing lights.

for example, you can have some great fights on caustic valley in fw; that is until the point somebody writes "I'll bring narc" in chat. those magic words ruin the fun by themselves somehow.

so pls.. something to make it useful in QP, so we don't have to endure that stuff in FW.


oh, and no buffs to IDF. man up and use those things the RIGHT way.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 17 May 2019 - 12:40 AM, said:

This would make them totally OP.

Exactly this.

I don't think that focusing on a component is the thing of LRMs, spread damage is how you balance insane alphas. If you could just focus an LRM40 to a CT IDF, then yeah it's probably broken. I suppose that it's not completely 40, but still.

My idea of making TAG, and quite possibly NARC removing the need of active missile-lock from the lurm boat, and letting the spotter hold the lock is to make spotters more helpful.

[Horseman]

Vellron2005, on 17 May 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

I don't think it would.. Since there would still be torso twisting, and cover and all that.

Tell you what... target component yes, ignore spread no. This would still ensure more damage impacts the TAGged location, but would not make it as overwhelmingly superior.

Vellron2005, on 17 May 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

Compared to a 2xHGR 50 point alpha, where you spend time before the shot.. not that OP, is it?

With a very noticeable difference that you could do this with LRMs from nearly a kilometer away, whereas HGR is basically a CQC weapon.

Edited by Horseman, 17 May 2019 - 07:57 AM.

[Khobai]

LRMs definitely shouldnt do PPFLD ever. That weapon exists though its called the thunderbolt missile. PGI should add it.

As for TAG, all light mechs should get an integrated TAG for free, because TAG isnt worth the energy hardpoint or 1 ton/1crit. Give TAG out for free and it might actually get used.

TAG also needs a useful secondary ability for when your team doesnt have LRMs. Like give each team a certain number of ARROWIV strikes that they can call in with TAG. Or alternatively add ARROWIV as a mech equipped weapon.

Same goes for NARC. NARC needs a secondary ability so it retains some usefulness even if your team doesnt have LRMs. Like make the NARC pods explode when their duration ends for 6-8 damage and have them generate a haywire effect that disrupts/scrambles HUDs (PPCs could be given the same haywire effect).

The6thMessenger, on 17 May 2019 - 02:48 AM, said:

My idea of making TAG, and quite possibly NARC removing the need of active missile-lock from the lurm boat, and letting the spotter hold the lock is to make spotters more helpful.

Hell no. The last thing I want is someone hijacking my LRMs and deciding my targets for me. LRMs are bad enough as is. And removing my agency as a player is unacceptable.

Edited by Khobai, 17 May 2019 - 09:09 AM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 16 May 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

This is the "steering" im talking about.

I know. However, it only makes LRMs slightly more effective. Making them (near) PPFLD, on the other hand, significantly increases the effectiveness when they connect.

Edited by Mystere, 17 May 2019 - 01:20 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think i like the idea of supplemental targeting where the laser just controls the final approach of the missiles. a lock is still required. but when the missiles get there if they see a dot they will turn towards it. allowing sub targeting and a reduced spread. maybe with dumbfire if you could get the missiles in the vicinity of the target they would home on the last leg but not as well and many would be out of the final approach homing range.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 May 2019 - 12:41 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

Hell no. The last thing I want is someone hijacking my LRMs and deciding my targets for me. LRMs are bad enough as is. And removing my agency as a player is unacceptable.

No, that's not it at all.

You have the choice to lurm who you like, but the Tag Debuff which the Tag bestows to the target instead would be an adequate substitute to keep the ongoing lurm volley homing to the target.

Mystere, on 17 May 2019 - 10:41 AM, said:

I know. However, it only makes LRMs slightly more effective. Making them (near) PPFLD, on the other hand, significantly increases the effectiveness when they connect.

Well yes, but the point of LRMs is to spread.

Likewise, a spotter able to keep the ongoing missile-volleys homing to the target regardless of the lurmer's active missile-lock is far more cooperative, because that was the point, for them to spot and fill in more for what the lurmer lacks.

What you are suggesting is just plain buff.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 May 2019 - 04:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Vellron2005, on 17 May 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

I don't think it would.. Since there would still be torso twisting, and cover and all that.. And lets look at all the steps needed to achieve a hit..

Have you seen what an ATM36 volley does to a 'Mech even with torso twisting and all that? And that's just in the 2-damage region, 3 is a whole different level of WTF.

We don't need more ridiculously peaky weapons in this game, let alone ones that are capable of homing around cover.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 17 May 2019 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well yes, but the point of LRMs is to spread.

I disagree. The point of LRMs is indirect fire.

The6thMessenger, on 17 May 2019 - 02:49 PM, said:

What you are suggesting is just plain buff.

Actually, what I am suggesting is both.

They will never be seen as being as affective as direct fire weapons unless the former comes closer to the lethality of the latter. Increasing their lethality (e.g. by significantly reducing their spread), in exchange for increasing mechanic requirements/complexity (i.e. stacking locks, TAG, NARC, UAV) is a fair trade off.

Merely increasing their novelty will not cut it, though.

Y E O N N E, on 17 May 2019 - 03:00 PM, said:

We don't need more ridiculously peaky weapons in this game, let alone ones that are capable of homing around cover.

Homing effectiveness is indirectly proportional to velocity. As such, a very careful rework of missiles will be required.

I also have no illusions when it comes to this developer's abilities. <sigh>

Edited by Mystere, 18 May 2019 - 04:59 AM.