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Base Is Dissipation Buff?


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:11 AM

I want you to take a look at this build: MCII-B 2x UAC5 + 2x UAC10, that is a textbook Dakka Mad-Cat, it's a bit slower for QP but it's good for prolonged combat.

Simmilar build, Trial Nightstar.

The Clan does 10.24 Sustained DPS that walks at 61 KPH, the IS does 6.45 Sustained DPS that walks at 46 KPH. Note that the nightstar has total of 934 HP, but the Mad-Cat has 837. If you don't know what this means, the health quirks (armor+structure) wouldn't make up for the DPS disparity -- 91.21s for MCII to strip NSR, but 129.76s for NSR to strip MCII.

Even with just CT hits, of 166 MCII (108/8 + 58) health vs 195 NSR (112/8 + 60 +23) health, the MCII will die at 25.73s versus 19.043s of the NSR. With torso hits, the NSR has 451 HP (195 + ((72/8 + 40 + 16) x 2)) will die vs MCII under 44.043s, while the MCII with 378 HP (166 + ((68/8 + 38)x2)) will die under 58.60s.

I get that with tech-balancing, it shouldn't be 1:1, clan is supposed to be OP. When it comes to the heat-trend, the Clans do have hotter tech, which kind of negates the high dissipation they could mass.

But what kind of ******** is this? Seriously, not only that the IS tech is waaaay hotter when it comes to build because IS would have to sacrifice so much speed and ammo for simmilar builds like that of the Clan Side, mainly because they just have heavier and worse tech overall. Nevermind the single-torso death with XL engines that would otherwise a clan-mech would survive (albeit near-death with terrible heat efficiency, because PGI is dumb like that).

"But clan has worse mobility!"

Seriously? Mad-Cat is meta, it's ******* meta. That lower mobility obviously isn't that much of a hindrance. And if you're thinking of just making Clan mechs a lot worse in terms of mobility, please don't, they are already kind of too dumb and not fun to pilot even if they can rack up impressive scores.

Here's just a guess, maybe if we increase IS-mechs base dissipation by 40% (and i am lowballing) -- that means both single/standard and double heat-sinks of IS tech would have +40% of their dissipation overall.

This would mean that double-heat-sinks would be competitive to that of Clans, and the is Single Heat-Sinks would be more of a choice, considering that lighter mechs that are starved both for tonnage and slots could opt for single-heat-sinks that would have acceptable dissipation due to being that of the value of pre-buff dhs, and the saved slots may allow more fine-tuning.

This will also indirectly buff some of the problematic IS weapons like IS standard PPC and is SNPPC, IS UAC10s, because they are just hot garbage. The 3x HPPC Awesome would be more formidable than just a hot joke.

IS SHS: 0.14 to 0.196 Dissipation - 1.96 Dissipation at Engine.
IS DHS: 0.22 to 0.308 Dissipation - 3.08 Dissipation at Engine.

So how would 40% dissipation bonus would work? Well the IS Singles would now feel a bit like is DHS, without the +2 slots baggage, and now the IS DHS -- with respect to the example above, it would come to 64.17% Heat-efficiency, from 45.84%, or the SDPS from 6.45 to 8.996. It's still not as high, but it's certainly not that low, it should be enough to match the TTK to that of Clan.

Put that into perspective, the 166 CT health of the MCII would now be killed at 18.452s, the 378 HP with torso will die at 42.019s, or the entire armor of 837 will be stripped off under 93.04s, which is ballpark all things considering.

/rant

ADDENUM:

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 23 May 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

You know what, I just noticed with energy builds:

Take Hellbringer Vomit 2x HLL + 4x ERML, it sports 5.5 Dissipation with 58 alpha, and assuming that we only shoot every time the HLLs could be fired it does 58 damage every 7.3s which dissipates 40.15 heat off that 57.2, effectively it has 70.1923% efficiency if done so, and sustained DPS of 5.5769.

The Grasshopper laser-vomit though, with 4.18 dissipation, 3x LL + 4x ERML, it does 47 Alpha (11 less) for 35.1 heat, assuming every time the ERML is available every 4.9s which dissipates 20.482 heat, it has DPS of 9.5918. It has waaay lower efficiency of 58.3533%, but near simmilar sustained of 5.5971 DPS.

Hmm, it seems like PGI kind of balanced the sustained of potential laser-vomit builds between tech-bases. Don't get me wrong, I still see a gaping chasm of alpha damage to tonnage allotment, in addition to just terrible equipment overall.

But best-case scenario, perhaps IS dakka would at least have severe heat buff.


With respect to the balancing done with energy builds, and the dissipation, heat and other heat-related quirks. I'd rather we just remove the heat/dissipation quirks and just increase the base dissipation by 40%.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 May 2019 - 03:16 PM.


#2 GoodTry

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:06 AM

I don't understand why you are using Smurfy links rather than MechDB links where you can actually see the effect of quirks and reasonably accurate DPS numbers etc.

#3 N a p e s

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:44 AM

View PostGoodTry, on 23 May 2019 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't understand why you are using Smurfy links rather than MechDB links where you can actually see the effect of quirks and reasonably accurate DPS numbers etc.


In this case there aren't really any quirks to influence the calculations and both sites provide essentially the same numbers. I do agree that MechDB offers plenty of advantages though.

#4 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:50 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 23 May 2019 - 05:11 AM, said:

*Interesting idea, would need some thinking to pull it off effectively*


Dear MWO community,

Easy fix : Ghost heat for Clan dakka across the board.

Sincerely,
- PGI

Posted Image Posted Image

#5 FupDup

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:33 AM

Why would IS SHS be better than Clan SHS when both have the same slot size? You can make the case for external DHS (not internal DHS because those are both sizeless) but not SHS.

Also in the Nightstar builds up above you're basically just demonstrating that the STD engine is kinda poo outside of specific mechs/builds. Yeah, XL engines let you pack more equipment and go faster than a STD engine...that's what XL engines are supposed to do. The only issue is that the IS XL is far, far riskier to take than the Clan XL. What you're doing is basically a weird roundabout way of compensating for engine imbalance rather than dealing directly with the engine imbalance.

As for weapon heat I've wanted a broad pass on most IS items for a while now to directly reduce their heat output a bit. Doing it at this level instead of the heatsink level means that mechs with low tonnage still benefit rather just mechs who can already boat dubs for days.

#6 MechaBattler

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:39 AM

On the thing about mechdb versus Smurfy. I'm stuck at work and we're stuck with old internet explorer. So mechdb boots up like doody. Smurfy's on the other hands still works on this old browser.

Also it's really weird to see Fupdup with a clan wolf icon. For a moment my eyes and brain were in conflict as to what I was seeing. lol.

#7 FupDup

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:42 AM

View PostMechaBattler, on 23 May 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

Also it's really weird to see Fupdup with a clan wolf icon. For a moment my eyes and brain were in conflict as to what I was seeing. lol.

I know right? I miss the mossy bird icon.

#8 CFC Conky

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:42 AM

As long as we’re talking wish lists, how about IS pays the usual 1.5M c-bills for double heat sinks, but have the ability to equip either singles and/or doubles?

Or not...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

#9 FupDup

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:44 AM

View PostCFC Conky, on 23 May 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

As long as we’re talking wish lists, how about IS pays the usual 1.5M c-bills for double heat sinks, but have the ability to equip either singles and/or doubles?

Or not...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

The idea I've had would be for SHS to only affect external heatsink properties rather than internal. Or, in other words, all engine heatsinks would be dubs no matter what. Those slotless engine sinks have always been the biggest factor making SHS crap. External DHS have a trade-off but the engine sinks have no considerations or compromises to make whatsoever.

#10 MechaBattler

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:23 AM

Eeck Gad! I just realized I'm not Liao!

#11 RickySpanish

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:37 AM

When one thread just is not enough.

#12 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 02:26 PM

You know what, I just noticed with energy builds:

Take Hellbringer Vomit 2x HLL + 4x ERML, it sports 5.5 Dissipation with 58 alpha, and assuming that we only shoot every time the HLLs could be fired it does 58 damage every 7.3s which dissipates 40.15 heat off that 57.2, effectively it has 70.1923% efficiency if done so, and sustained DPS of 5.5769.

The Grasshopper laser-vomit though, with 4.18 dissipation, 3x LL + 4x ERML, it does 47 Alpha (11 less) for 35.1 heat, assuming every time the ERML is available every 4.9s which dissipates 20.482 heat, it has DPS of 9.5918. It has waaay lower efficiency of 58.3533%, but near simmilar sustained of 5.5971 DPS.

Hmm, it seems like PGI kind of balanced the sustained of potential laser-vomit builds between tech-bases. Don't get me wrong, I still see a gaping chasm of alpha damage to tonnage allotment, in addition to just terrible equipment overall.

But best-case scenario, perhaps IS dakka would at least have severe heat buff.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 May 2019 - 02:27 PM.


#13 VonBruinwald

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:12 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 23 May 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

You know what, I just noticed with energy builds:

Hellbringer Vomit 2x HLL + 4x ERML

...

Grasshopper laser-vomit


The problem with comparing those builds is you're relying on that -10% heat quirk to make it competitive and not every 'mech has that quirk. If you need quirks to make a loadout competitive then those quirks really need to be rolled into the base stats to prevent 'mechs being left behind.

Quirks should be used for flavour. Not balance,

#14 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:15 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 23 May 2019 - 03:12 PM, said:


The problem with comparing those builds is you're relying on that -10% heat quirk to make it competitive and not every 'mech has that quirk. If you need quirks to make a loadout competitive then those quirks really need to be rolled into the base stats to prevent 'mechs being left behind.

Quirks should be used for flavour. Not balance,


I agree that not every is mech has 10% quirk. That being said, even the example i brought, with near-equal sustained, it still loses on a bunch of other stuffs like shorter range and slower forward speed -- these drawbacks which I would prefer to be properly addressed by buffs of equal value.

I'd rather just remove most dissipation quirks, and then add a base 40% dissipation increase for the IS.

#15 RickySpanish

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:15 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 23 May 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

You know what, I just noticed with energy builds:

Take Hellbringer Vomit 2x HLL + 4x ERML, it sports 5.5 Dissipation with 58 alpha, and assuming that we only shoot every time the HLLs could be fired it does 58 damage every 7.3s which dissipates 40.15 heat off that 57.2, effectively it has 70.1923% efficiency if done so, and sustained DPS of 5.5769.

The Grasshopper laser-vomit though, with 4.18 dissipation, 3x LL + 4x ERML, it does 47 Alpha (11 less) for 35.1 heat, assuming every time the ERML is available every 4.9s which dissipates 20.482 heat, it has DPS of 9.5918. It has waaay lower efficiency of 58.3533%, but near simmilar sustained of 5.5971 DPS.

Hmm, it seems like PGI kind of balanced the sustained of potential laser-vomit builds between tech-bases. Don't get me wrong, I still see a gaping chasm of alpha damage to tonnage allotment, in addition to just terrible equipment overall.

But best-case scenario, perhaps IS dakka would at least have severe heat buff.


What did you do to that poor Grasshopper? :(

#16 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:28 PM

View PostFupDup, on 23 May 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Why would IS SHS be better than Clan SHS when both have the same slot size? You can make the case for external DHS (not internal DHS because those are both sizeless) but not SHS.


Probably because the Clan Tech over all has better equipment? Put it this way, Clans could comfortably mix Endo + Ferro + XL, but not IS mechs, so much so that they couldn't effectively afford using DHS with Endo + Ferro if they are going on a lower engine rating that would inevitably force SHS if they are to maximize tonnage.

View PostFupDup, on 23 May 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Also in the Nightstar builds up above you're basically just demonstrating that the STD engine is kinda poo outside of specific mechs/builds. Yeah, XL engines let you pack more equipment and go faster than a STD engine...that's what XL engines are supposed to do. The only issue is that the IS XL is far, far riskier to take than the Clan XL. What you're doing is basically a weird roundabout way of compensating for engine imbalance rather than dealing directly with the engine imbalance.


Sure, i guess. But honestly IS tech is just inferior in general, even if you address the imbalance by making IS xl engine survivable with a torso-loss, you still have the compounding issue of lesser available tonnage and slots overall that we would still hit the same issues overall.

View PostFupDup, on 23 May 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

As for weapon heat I've wanted a broad pass on most IS items for a while now to directly reduce their heat output a bit. Doing it at this level instead of the heatsink level means that mechs with low tonnage still benefit rather just mechs who can already boat dubs for days.


I honestly don't get your approach. Cause Associative Law of Multiplication, as in if we reduce IS ERML heat by say 20%, then it will still affect the over all heat efficiency of builds by 20% -- assuming that it's only the IS ERML, but since we're doing it to ever weapon across the board then it basically affects everything.

If I'm not clear enough, I also specified that engine heatsinks would be affected as well.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 May 2019 - 04:29 PM.


#17 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:32 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 23 May 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

Dear MWO community,

Easy fix : Ghost heat for Clan dakka across the board.

Sincerely,
- PGI

Posted Image Posted Image


Lol. More like.

Dear MWO community,

We're the developers, that means we know balance better than you despite not playing the game. **** you.

Sincerely,
- PGI

#18 justcallme A S H

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:34 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 23 May 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:


I agree that not every is mech has 10% quirk. That being said, even the example i brought, with near-equal sustained, it still loses on a bunch of other stuffs like shorter range and slower forward speed -- these drawbacks which I would prefer to be properly addressed by buffs of equal value.

I'd rather just remove most dissipation quirks, and then add a base 40% dissipation increase for the IS.


You're also forgetting 2 things.
  • Laser Duration
  • Mobility
Now the GHP has better stats in those areas over the HBR and a JJ to boot. Hitboxes are also quite good on the GHP as you can fully shield where the HBR you can still nick the torso.

So yes there are differences in the tech and you need to play them as such. It is not a simple thing of put up some heat numbers and "OMG IMBALANCE".

Also on the UAC5/10 thing. Yes IS UAC10s are too hot for their tonnage. 3.5 heat needs to be 3.0 or 3.25, not arguing that at all. But that is it, doesn't need to be anymore than that because with the lower pallet count IS UAC10s despite their heat are extremely strong when boated.

#19 The6thMessenger

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:17 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 23 May 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

You're also forgetting 2 things.
  • Laser Duration
  • Mobility
Now the GHP has better stats in those areas over the HBR and a JJ to boot. Hitboxes are also quite good on the GHP as you can fully shield where the HBR you can still nick the torso.

So yes there are differences in the tech and you need to play them as such. It is not a simple thing of put up some heat numbers and "OMG IMBALANCE".


The Mobility and Laser duration, the JJ, hell even better hitbox provides better survivability that would be certainly beneficial. But it's not like those 2 4 answers the rest of the disadvantages. Given enough skill, good positioning, the HBR can mitigate a lot of those advantages, especially when you could pump damage farther away that provides a bit better chance to spread damage across because you are a smaller target -- add in the fact that the hellbringer would have to expose less to get a full burn than the hellbringer build that would otherwise have to expose a good portion of the hitbox. This is assuming near simmilar laser-vomit.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, play should also be considered. That being said, it could only go so far with so much stacked against it. Perhaps not 40% buff at the base heatsink, but at least we could acknowledge the gap of heat efficiency.

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 23 May 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

Also on the UAC5/10 thing. Yes IS UAC10s are too hot for their tonnage. 3.5 heat needs to be 3.0 or 3.25, not arguing that at all. But that is it, doesn't need to be anymore than that because with the lower pallet count IS UAC10s despite their heat are extremely strong when boated.


As for the efficiency, I would point out the logic of ATMs' inefficiency with damage, they are doing so much that it's not exactly that relevant anyways. Simmilarly, if the enemy is purposefully shielding or deadsiding which focuses the damage at a single point anyways, or in any other case there the damage couldn't have been twisted away, in cases like you managed to flank the enemy and your laser burns aren't being noticed because they are less shakey, then the less pellet or the shorter duration doesn't end up relevant at that specific instance at all.

If you want to put more damage accurately to one component, go put it and i'm sure that it would bode well and I'm not even being facetious, same case with lasers or the UAC10 that has less pellet count. But with what I have seen, they could just put out a fuckton damage to compensate anyways, that it would still have a good result (if not better) regardless.

In this case however, if you are banking on the ability of IS tech to be good when accurate, then it's just making it harder for everyone else.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 May 2019 - 05:21 PM.






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