34 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Energy Weapons:

In a lore such as battletech there is an ever pressing issue that comes up... Why is everything the same? Well, it isn't supposed to be but the source rules for every interactive spinoff basically gives us the real world equivalent of every assault rifle can hit something at 300 feet and does 5 damage for one magazine. Obviously there is a problem with that. The Scar-L, M16-A3 and L85A3 may use the same bullet but the three assault rifles are very different.

There are over 66+ IS medium laser variants when including variations and sub-licensed spinoffs and even that is an incomplete list from Sarna in which I very quickly found even more that are unlisted at Sarna's medium laser page in just a couple of old TROs. At the very least, there are 40+ uniquely identified medium laser weapons.

Some fire red beams, such as the Martel (no subname) sub-licensed medium laser by Bergan Industries creates beams 6 cm in diameter and it is in the red visible spectrum. This is a laser that is noteworthy for being weak per shot, but able to shoot several times more often than the return fire from a rival red beam Diverse Optics 18 medium laser in its 2 MW (2,000 KW) 0.1 second pulse in the 800nm range (compare to real life's XN-1 LaWS' 30 KW laser and 30 second sustained beam destruction time against armored PT boats).

Some fire blue beams, such as the aptly named 5MW Rassal Blue Beam by Arcturan Arms. Known for an incredibly powerful shot delivered in a fraction of a second, a painfully slow refire rate, and a number of issues that actually lead to the reason why it only ever existed on a single mech and two sub-variants of it, which ceased production in 2550 and finally the weapon and those 3 variants of the design went extinct sometime after the Early Succession Wars and before the Clan Invasion. When a laser is so powerful that if fired too often it could destroy itself.. and that's factoring its already slow refire rate.. it only makes sense that at some point its flaws outweighed its only merit.

Its worth noting, that in BattleTechnology's laser page, examples are provided in which the Sunglow Type 2 Heavy (large) Laser has 5 MW with a 0.1 second pulse, while the medium laser demonstrated is the Harmon medium laser at 2 MW with a 0.1 second pulse, and the Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Laser was 1 MW with a 0.2 second pulse. Note I didn't say beam, as these standard lasers each fire more than once to achieve their rated damage. Comparatively there are some with sustained beams of 1 to 2 seconds. Typically, small lasers generate 0.8 to 1.5 Megawatt/second, Medium lasers range typically from 1.5 to 3 Megawatts (Rassal Blue Beam is obviously the exception not the norm), and Large Lasers range from 3 to 5 Megawatts. What's also interesting is that these are in Megawatt/Seconds for power as in that's the output possible within a second... this is important in so many ways given that these weapons are taking several seconds to net their final "rated" result.

But even with firepower on this level, a "0.1" second pulse (or super short beam duration) are not enough to do much according to laser drill calculators. Will come back to this after we define a use of the medium laser as the two tie together.
------------

Of course, akin to autocannons and missiles, this vast diversity in lore weapons creates a bit of an issue: How does one create that variety in a system of "medium laser does 5 damage per use in tabletop"?

The answer is in how we define a "use"

Mechwarrior Online defines it as per shot. In fact many mechwarrior games do this. But such eliminates any variety without tossing the "ML does 5 damage" out the airlock.

Solaris VII does much the same but increases the firing rate to something similar to the books; ultimately giving medium lasers quite a DPS boost provided you're willing to wait about 3 to 5 seconds (1 turn of 2.5 seconds without firing and another 2.5 second turn to aim and fire again) between the turn you fire them and the turn you can fire them again, allowing 2 to 3 shots in 10 seconds (more like 2 shots every 7.5 seconds), which is closer to what the novels seem to indicate.

Straight tabletop with every possible 10 second time-slice rule understandably, puts it as 3 to 8 damage per use when factoring in "glancing" and "direct blows"... but a single use per ten seconds period.

And then we have the novels, where some of the few truly described medium lasers are firing with beam times between 0.1 and 2 seconds long, with delay times as short as a half second to as long as 8 seconds to cool off the lens...

Its here that things get interesting, because we'll have instances where a Gauss Slug rips a hole 8 centimeters in diameter through the armor, the structure, and the back armor AND hit the machine behind it too! And yet a single medium laser doing 1/3rd the damage of that Gauss Slug (15 / 3 = 5, the damage of a medium laser "use" in tabletop) will hit the same spot again and again and again and yet again [4 times so what should be 20 damage worth] and just do damage to the armor of an identical target.. Not ripping through a target, not damaging the structure, not even truly getting through the armor. Instead it melts a layer of the armor, it distends and weakens the armor, it causes a reaction to jettison a layer of the armor, on cockpit "glass" the blinding light is rapidly subdued as the view to the outside is made dark (sound familiar? MWO closed beta) to prevent retinal damage to the pilot until the heated transparent armor is cooled enough to try and see through again. Why? Why is this? I mean ultimately, the medium laser seems rather...weak... per shot. Yet cumulatively if you go by the novels and their firing rates, then BattleTechnology's reported energy rates actually work out as multiple shots to accomplish the bigger task. But that's a laser described with a 0.1 second pulse or beam duration. Meanwhile lasers with long 1-to-2 second beam durations that "streak" the enemy with dazling lights, these seem to do so much more damage.

These lasers described seem weak if you make it out to be all the damage in a single blow of these low 0.1 second outputs. But before pulse lasers even exist in the Battletech universe, the weaker lasers firing with very small beam times are in fact described as firing in pulses. Laser drill calculators also have an element called a "pulse interval" which even with a short duration such as 0.1 second beam time or 'pulse', setting up a pulse interval of 2 seconds means that the laser will be repeated for a duration of 0.1 seconds every 2 seconds at that amount of power until an established cutoff time to stop firing... this significantly increases the amount of "hole" that can be drilled through solid steel or a number of other materials including diamond.

The amount of difference in just adding 2 or 3 more 'pulses' separated by 1 to 3 seconds each can be as vast as nearly cutting an 8 centimeter (about 3.15 inches) diameter hole 9 inches through solid steel plate versus only 0.7 inches. (If it tells you anything, the armor on a Panzer IV Tiger tank's front hull was 3.9 inches thick). Also entertaining, is that differences in beam diameter also have an effect, as you may have a fatter but shallower hole for the same amount of power.

------
So, again how do we define a use? Between the games, the lore, and some real world laser science, the same way I've defined it for autocannons, as the weapon rating in a unit of time.

One use or rating is currently defined at accomplishing its entire rated damage within 5 seconds or less, and ready to begin delivering its full payload again within 10 seconds of that first shot of the original firing, just like the autocannon. Some versions might be exceptionally weak but might easily be able to double the overall DPS so long as their weapon heat is well managed. Some could be slow to refire, but excel in short-burst damage.

And that was just medium lasers. I haven't even gotten into small lasers, large lasers, their ER versions, the pulse lasers, or Blazers (binary laser cannons) so many other energy-based weapons.

In the end, if one were to funnel in all the weapon variants of just the 3025 era, even ignoring all that has become lost tech while in the early half of the MW5: Mercs timeline, we're still looking at nearly 300 unique weapons that in Battletech's words "fit into loose classifications" such as small medium and large lasers, ppcs, autocannons 2-20 and missiles...

But as said in other similar treads, I'm not going for the system HBS BT did, or what MW5 is likely going for. No "level up medium laser +++" that completely outdoes a large laser, with enemies just steadily starting with +2 or +4 weapons and armor as you level up.. This isn't final fantasy or dungeons and dragons and no +2 boots of eternal foot fungus is gonna give you an edge in my watch.

In the "Heat" plan, I've settled on 1/4th of the heat generated generically for energy weapons will come from and inside the weapon, and 3/4ths of the rated heat will come from and reside in the reactor. While this may not be true for every single weapon, it will be the ongoing generic standard.

I've long decided that the baseline, middle ground medium laser must have certain traits. In truth, these traits in terms of damage and shots match the heftiest caliber of an AC/5, specifically the GM Whirlwind/5. What separates them, of course, is that this baseline laser akin to MWO's lasers, can't deliver damage as quickly as MWO's autocannons.

Though I have debated on which laser to use for some time, including the Agra 3L, the Martell, so many choices. Then another that once struck me as a candidate came up while reading Tactics of Duty. As it happens, I rather liked William H. Keith's novels as not only was he the first to write them, many of the world-building, tech-developing elements shipped out by FASA was also written by him, including many of the various elements inspiring my entire plan. And with it came a moment in which a Vindicator, a Commando, a Wolfhound and an Assassin is fighting back against an Archer and a Shadowhawk. And with this scene came a number of little tidbits, such as the ball-and-socket turret for the Wolfhound's rear laser and some valuable descriptions of Doombud LRM missiles, as well as that LRMs could in fact be fired in less than full 20 salvos in order to conserve ammunition (28 missiles remaining in his two launchers in an Archer 4M [LRM-20+A x2] with only 12 more missiles waiting to reload), but most importantly... the Wolfhound's Defiance 3M lasers fit a couple of traits I was looking for.

As it also happens, Sarna is listing the Defiance 3M as one of several common use medium lasers. In fact the only medium lasers to come close as common rivals are Diverse Optics (and its more than 10 sub-variants) and Hellion and its 6 sub-variants.. and that's hardly fair as those two are up against just the Defiance B3M, not getting into the many other Defiance medium lasers.. as such the Defiance B3M stands as one of the most common medium lasers in the BT universe.

As such, the golden standard; the baseline for all medium laser denominations to come, will be the Defiance B3M. This will be the middle ground. And already I have weapons lined up for the high end of burst damage, for the high end of DPS, and other middle-ground variants to help create a varied set of medium laser variants.

From there, I'll expand.

Edited by Koniving, 30 May 2019 - 10:57 PM.

[Koniving]

Laser elements:

Nothing is set in stone.
List of attributes / stat effects of each is incomplete and as such left out at this time.
Some elements are self-explanatory. Questions, discussions and ideas are encouraged.

Elements and factors (will separate later)

• Barrel:
  the protective shell-and-opening for the laser
  
  • Normal
    
  • Protruding length - cylinder end
    
  • Protruding length - cone end
    
  • Short

• Focusing Lens:
  The lens which makes the magic happen. Is a factor which affects girth and function
  
  • to be filled later

• Gain Medium:
  the lasing medium used to stimulate energy to a lower state from a higher state in order to fire a laser. The amplifier. Effectively, the "ammo"
  
  • Crystal
    
    • YAG
      
    • Doped Insulator
      
    • Bulk
      
    • Fiber
  • Ceramic (solid)
    
  • Dye (liquid)
    
  • Gas
    
  • Semi-Conductor

• Pump:
  the firing mechanism sending the engine/reactor's energy into weapon to begin lasing
  
  • Placeholder

• Beam Color:
  Contrary to popular belief, real life lasers range from infrared ranges to ultra-violet and also populate the entire color spectrum.
  
  • I'm not about to list every possible color. The color of the laser has no actual effect on what it does. Color is only an indication of wavelength, which in turn is a by-product of the gain medium. Some Battletech lasers outside of the visible spectrum have an artificial color added in so that lasers can be effective when the targeting system is down.

• Power Level
  It's over 9,000 kilojoules!!!!! Then again what military-grade laser isn't?
  
  • This would be a listing of wattage, in megawatts/second, used to excite the gain medium to irradiate the focused light. It is important to be aware of this, as engines do have a finite power peak and may stall.

• Beam Type:
  Despite the distinction of "pulse" lasers, most standard lasers are also using a pulse as defined by laser terminology, which is simply a brief release and termination of the laser. By extension, Battletech's pulse lasers do this in rapid succession, effectively creating a "laser machine gun." (Opening cinematic of MW4 and the pulse weapons of MW3 are effectively the "effect" and "mechanics" that BT lore is going for. MWO's visual representation is perhaps more scientifically accurate, however in BT that rapid fire is actually weaker per pulse and continuous rapid fire over time actually accumulates the overall heat and added damage, with increased "to hit chance" due to the ease of correcting aim while shooting, meanwhile range being reduced due to the laser's lower power output per beam weakening the individual pulses and in addition to the increased difficulty of maintaining concentrated fire for longer periods of time at longer range.
  
• Beam Duration:
  the length of time a pulse lasts.
  
• Shots to net rating:
  the number of pulses necessary to achieve the weapon's damage rating.
  
• Cooldown:
  the minimum amount of time before another pulse can be used.
  
• Delay:
  the time between trigger pull and readiness of the laser. The more powerful a pulse, the longer this delay may be.

• 
  Cooling Jacket:
  this cools your weapon, even when you can't cool your jets.
  
  • Standard
    
  • Improved
    
  • Poor
    
  • Degrading (Note this is rarely an inherent trait of the weapon. It appears most with certain placements on certain mechs).
    
  • Dedicated Heatsink(s)

• Reliability:
  when everything's going wrong, will it still do right by you or will it let you down?
  
  • Standard (meh)
    
  • Reliable (been in use for hundreds of years before you were born and long after you're dead)
    
  • Exceptional (when you break the bank, you expect quality)
    
  • Flimsy (seriously, you're desperate aren't you?)
    
  • PGI-made (you say you're only using it because there's nothing else on hand but you're really a masochist aren't you?. Sure it might pull through if you yell enough...but surely you know that's just luck. The weapon can't hear you beg.)

• Overheat Expectations:
  when you've done all you can to upset lady luck, these are your reprisal
  
  • Performance degradation
    
  • Automatic cutoff safety [Cuts weapon off instantly, no lasting reprecussion]
    
  • Lockout safety [cuts weapon off instantly but refuses to fire again until weapon is at 0 heat]
    
  • Surge backblast (weapon-damaging)
    
  • Surge backblast (damages other systems)
    
  • EM Interference (interrupts/disables other systems briefly without damaging them)
    
  • Malfunction (surprise! You won't know til it happens.)
    
  • Thermal lure (heat-based targeting systems will suddenly prioritize this weapon)

• Endurance: (crit-health)
  
  • Weapon Variant Specific:
    
    • Standard
      
    • Fragile
      
    • Protected (not the same as Armored)
      
    • Armored
      
    • Rugged
  • Mechlab mounting Specific:
    
    • Internal
      
    • Exposed (External; jurry-rigged)

• Ease of Repair:
  
  • Weapon Variant Specific:
    
    • Standard
      
    • Easy to repair
      
    • Difficult to repair
  • Mechlab Placement Specific:
    
    • Easy to Access (automatic for exposed weapons)
      
    • Difficult Access (automatic for internal weapons in small/compact or 'full' mechs)

• Economy:
  
  • Construction:
    quality of a core model
    
    • Recent / standard materials
      
    • Fresh from factory
      
    • Premium materials (you found some royalty gear!)
      
    • Relic / restored
      
    • 'Affordable' materials
      
    • Made by PGI
  • Repair:
    quality of repair materials, each tier affects performance
    
    • Original Factory Parts
      
    • Counterfeit/Imitation Parts
      
    • Improvised
      
    • Duct Tape
  • Feature:
    a quirk of your economical choice
    
    • To be filled

Edited by Koniving, 01 June 2019 - 12:37 PM.

[Koniving]

Trying this again (claiming the second post to keep the weapon variants close to the first post.)
For obvious reasons, medium lasers are my current focus.
May, later, actually reorganize the entire thing by company rather than by laser class...
Early formatting.

Note: In the middle of rearranging the formatting.
Lasers

MAGNA METALS INC

Pioneers in advanced tech.

Facilitator of the worst logo of Battletech.

SL: Magna Mk I
ML: Magna Mk II
(Mk VI ER ML)
LL: Magna Mk III
SPL: Magna 200P
MPL: Magna 400P

DEFIANCE INDUSTRIES

"Stand in Defiance"

Defiance B3M

Spoiler

Fluff: (Placeholder)
Availability new: Like Starbucks, its on every corner of every planet.
Availability used: See above.
Manufactured by: Defiance of
Manufactured on: Furillo, Hesperus II
Also sold as new out to: Coventry, Tharkad, Pandora.

Elements:
Barrel type: Normal
Optical Resonator:
Gain Medium: Titanium-doped sapphire rod
Pump: Separate Confinement Heterostructure laser diode
Power Level: 2 MW
Cooling Jacket: Standard.


Factors:
Beam Color: 660nm (Light Red)
Beam Type: Continuous Wave
Beam Diameter: 6 cm
Firing Delay: 0.1 seconds
Beam Duration: 0.2 seconds
Damage/Time: 0.835 damage / 0.1 seconds.
Damage/Shot: 1.67 damage
Heat per Shot: 1 Thermal Units. (0.25 at weapon, 0.75 at reactor)
Damage/Rating: 5 damage
Shots to net Rating: 3 shots/rating.
Heat per Rating: 3 Thermal Units.
Minimum Cooldown: 1.7 seconds
Recommended Cooldown: 3.2 seconds.
Minimum Time Rated Damage: 0.1 + 0.2 + 1.57+ 0.1 + 0.2 + 1.7 + 0.1 + 0.2 = 4.4 seconds to achieve 5 damage.
Overheat Threshold: # TU
Overheat Expectations: Cutoff.
Reliability: Standard
Endurance: Standard
Ease of Repair: Standard

Synopsis: The Defiance B3M is meant to be something of a middle line weapon. Its as common or more so than Martell, is of a newer design than the Diverse Optics Type 18, and it works reasonably well. Truly there's nothing to fault it for...but there's nothing to praise it for either.

Kon's opinion: The minimum time to net a full 5 damage is identical between the B3M and Diverse Optics' Type 2 laser and similar beam time, but that's where the similarities end. Its modern pump ensures a reasonably quick delivery of its potential.

Kon's design note: Before I found an additional treasure trove of information in the month of May, I had planned to use a 10 second time slice for laser ratings so that they would have steady cooldown rates. It seemed to make great sense. But in general heat buildup just wasn't enough so I've since gone with 5 seconds to reach rating, with an additional 5 second no use time. As such the original design just could not be competitive anymore. Given its common presence on many mechs and some vehicles, it struck me as a good idea to have this be a sort of long-beam weapon so it'd be useful against infantry. Though between the new fluff I found and the fact that most mechs carrying these also had other anti-infantry measures...the need for it to serve that purpose dropped suddenly.

Note: Defiance B3M is still undergoing tweaking.

Diverse Optics

"Keeping focused, so you don't have to."

Diverse Optics 2

Spoiler

Fluff: (Placeholder)
Availability new: Out of favor but still produced
Availability used: Common
Manufactured by: (Placeholder)
Manufactured on: (Placeholder)

Elements:
Barrel type: Protruding - cylinderical end.
Optical Resonator: Confocal arrangement
Gain Medium: Solid - Nd:YAG (neodymium-doped yttrium aluminum garnet) crystal rod.
Pump: Double Heterostructure laser diodes
Power Level: 3 MW
Cooling Jacket: Standard.


Factors:
Beam Color: 1064nm (infrared), artificially frequency doubled with lithium triborate to be 532nm, which is green.
Beam Type: Continuous Wave
Beam Diameter: 4 centimeters.
Firing Delay: 0.5 seconds
Beam Duration: 0.2
Damage/Time: 1.25 damage / 0.1 seconds.
Damage/Shot: 2.5 damage
Heat per Shot: 1.5 Thermal Units. (0.5 at weapon, 1.0 at reactor)
Damage/Rating: 5 damage
Shots to net Rating: 2 shots/rating.
Heat per Rating: 3 Thermal Units.
Minimum Cooldown: 3 seconds
Recommended Cooldown: 4 seconds.
Minimum Time Net Rating: 0.5+0.2+3+0.5+0.2 =4.4 seconds to achieve 5 damage.
Overheat Threshold: #TU
Overheat Expectations: Surge Backblast (other systems)
Reliability: Standard
Endurance: Standard
Ease of Repair: Standard
Economy:
Construction:
Repair:
Feature:

Synopsis: A weapon still produced after 500 years. Arguably the oldest if not one of the oldest designs to exist. It is common to complain about the time necessary for amplification, but none can argue with the results.. Few laser systems crammed into a single ton can match both the burst damage potential and reliability of this design, though several can easily rival or surpass one of those fields.

The weapon's real issue is the laser's divergence rate which is exceptionally high for today's standards. This in turn significantly degrades its effectiveness at range. During a speech at the Tamar War College in 3025, Dr. Garbald Hansen presented a graph of medium-class laser ranges for 19 different models. The Diverse Optics Type 2 and the Omikron 3000 laser drop before any other.

Kon's opinion: This turned out rather interesting. We have an explanation for the green beam, an old weapon that has a flaw and yet has more than plenty reason to continue being in use 500 years even as better models appear. By fluke of its description and with almost no input from myself, this medium laser has come out on its own as something that hit-and-run fighters might prefer

Diverse Optics 18

Spoiler

Fluff: (Placeholder)
Availabilitynew: Common
Availability used: common
Manufactured by: (Placeholder)
Manufactured on: (Placeholder)

Elements:
Barrel type: Normal
Optical Resonator:
Gain Medium: Titanium-doped sapphire rod
Pump: Separate Confinement Heterostructure laser diode
Power Level: 2 MW
Cooling Jacket: Standard.


Factors:
Beam Color: 800nm (fluff says this is in red visible, but this is actually in infrared)
Beam Type: Peak Pulse
Firing Delay: 0.3 seconds
Beam Duration: 0.1 seconds
Damage/Time: 1.6 damage / 0.1 seconds.
Damage/Shot: 1.6 damage
Heat per Shot: 1 Thermal Units. (0.5 at weapon, 1 at reactor)
Damage/Rating: 4.8 damage
Shots to net Rating: 3 shots/rating.
Heat per Rating: 3 Thermal Units.
Minimum Cooldown: 1.5 seconds
Recommended Cooldown: 2 seconds.
Minimum Time Rated Damage: 0.3+0.1+1.5+0.3+0.1+1.5+0.3+0.1 =4.2 seconds to achieve 4.8 damage.
Overheat Threshold: # TU
Overheat Expectations: EM Interference.
Reliability: Standard
Endurance: Standard
Ease of Repair: Standard

Synopsis: 17 iterations of lasers by Diverse Optics have built up to this. While typically average, the Diverse Optics 18 is a little lacking in power. It makes up for this in available range, easily able to achieve its full potential at higher than normal ranges.

Kon's opinion: An interesting find. This weapon has a rather large amount of available detail and a few minor mistakes (such as 800nm being in "red" visible light spectrum, when the red visible light spectrum ends at 750nm. Truth be told, it describes its beam time as 1 millisecond, But a beam time of 0.001 is literally impossible in a video game, and for game-related reasons I'm instead inclined to go with BattleTechnology's "0.1 to 2 second" beam times as opposed to "0.001" to "0.013" second beam times that I found for some of these.

In addition to what I was able to find, I also took a look at HBS Battletech, where it was given additional accuracy and additional crit chance. I may give the crit chance but have not listed it here as I'm uncertain as to how well it can be tweaked until MW5 releases. Significantly reducing the "charge time" should reasonably increase accurate hits.

Diverse Optics 20

Spoiler

Fluff: (Placeholder)
Availability: Exceptionally common
Manufactured by: (Placeholder)(Defiance and sublicenses)
Manufactured on: Caph (production gradually dies off after an event in 2774, leaving a high volume of used models available within 3 jumps of the planetary system), Kessel (factory fresh models available) .

Elements:
Barrel type:
Optical Resonator:
Gain Medium: Ytterbium doped glass rod
Pump: Micro Laser
Power Level: 3 MW
Cooling Jacket:

Factors:
Beam Color:
Beam Type:
Beam Duration:
Shots to net rating:
Cooldown:
Delay:
Reliability:
Endurance:
Ease of Repair:
Economy:
Construction:
Repair:
Feature:


Synopsis
Kon's opinion

Fusigon Heavy Weaponry

"We thought the name Omicron sounded pretty cool."

Omicron 3000

Spoiler

Numerical value of the name represents power in megajoules, 3k,
Since millisecond beam times are impossible in modern games, using 100 millisecond beam times.
3k's beam time is half that of the Diverse Optics Type 18, so 0.05 seconds for our purposes...possible in Unreal? If not, simply remove the firing delay.
Due to the shorter beam time, its 1.5 MW of firepower, barely qualifying as a medium laser.
1.25 damage/shot should do it. 4 shots to net rating. The affected metal vaporizes fast enough to produce a mini 'pop', a tiny explosion and minor kinetic energy is produced by that.

Omicron 4000

Spoiler

As above.
The 4k produces 4,000 Megajoules in what is also a 0.05 second beam time, netting a 2 MW shot. Unlike the 3K, the 4K doesn't share range issues. The vaporizing of metal in the target is so fast that this laser produces a satisfying "pop" on impact in the form of an instant mini-explosion, giving this laser a bit of kinetic energy or an 'impact jolt' to transfer to the target.
The better performance comes from switching the type of laser diodes opposed to the 3K.

Photech 806c
RAMTech 800 (Ramtech)
Rassal Blue-Beam

Spoiler

No longer in production and becomes completely extinct during the Clan Invasion. Mounted on Crossbow mechs.
0.8 second firing delay.
0.1 second beam time. May make 0.2 seconds.
6 Megawatts firepower, putting it at or beyond the high end of large laser firepower.
5 damage in a single shot, 4 heat initially. Degrading cooling jacket ensures that each shot is worse than the last.
Overheats on every shot,requiring about 9 seconds to cool off before it can be used again.
Visually is a blindingly bright sky blue.
Induces a 'snap' explosion, transferring kinetic energy on the target. Have this only occur against specific armor types? Look into possibilities.

Martell brand

Licensed to so many manufacturers, our brand is gonna be so huge.

(Seriously I got nothing.)

Martel (4 non-specifics)

Spoiler

Martel Model 5

Spoiler

Fluff: The Vindicator was caught in the red glare of its laser. The pulses deeply scarred the mech's rear armor. (Battletech Audiobook: Wolves on the Border position 1107).
Theoretically, the laser under the Locust's chin could hit anything in line-of-sight clear to the horizon. The range was sharply reduced however, by the quality of the weapons control systems that pointed the heavy barrel. (Battletech Audiobook: Decision at Thunder Rift location 2196) (said as the medium lasers are used on targets "several kilometers out" and score some hits).
Availability new: Common
Availability used: common
Manufactured by: (Placeholder)
Manufactured on: (Placeholder)

Elements:
Barrel type: Normal
Optical Resonator:
Gain Medium: Titanium-doped sapphire rod
Pump: Separate Confinement Heterostructure laser diode
Power Level: 1.8 MW
Cooling Jacket: Standard.


Factors:
Beam Color: 635nm
Beam Type: Pulse
Firing Delay: 0.1 seconds
Beam Duration: 0.1 seconds
Damage/Time: 0.84 damage / 0.1 seconds.
Damage/Shot: 0.84 damage
Heat per Shot: 0.5 Thermal Units.
Damage/Rating: 5.04 damage
Shots to net Rating: 6 shots/rating.
Heat per Rating: 3 Thermal Units.
Minimum Cooldown: 0.45 seconds
Recommended Cooldown: 1.1 seconds.
Minimum Time Rated Damage: 0.1+0.1+0.45+0.1+0.1+0.45+0.1+0.1 = 3.55 seconds to achieve 5.04 damage.
Overheat Threshold: # TU
Overheat Expectations: #
Reliability: Standard
Endurance: Standard
Ease of Repair: Standard

Synopsis: The Martell Model 5 is primarily used on the Locust. This weapon is depicted as having a red laser, near instant firing (as such missing is 'shocking' and blamed more on its heavy barrel and the turret itself). It seems effective against mechs, aircraft, vehicles and even infantry (outside of a reasonable range window), which means unlike other models it needed to be able to fire fast and often...which works out as it is depicted as doing exactly that, firing at about twice the rate of fire than similar lasers such as the Defiance B3M and accumulatively doing more damage over shorter period of time than most lasers. This in turn means that it can also net the next rating much sooner than its rivals can even think to begin.

There are of course downsides to the Martel Model 5 and the Martell line in general. Since the Martel line shoots more frequently than others, its easier to overheat it and as such requires more 'management'. There's also the fact that it takes 6 hits to net the full damage which is twice that of other laser weapons. This isn't difficult due to its DPS-oriented nature. However, landing successive hits on the specific components is the real challenge. Ultimately this is a laser that rewards a higher skill set as well as the fast-paced swarm-brawling tactics.

Kon's opinion: Between the Gray Death Trilogy and Wolves on the Border, the most defining trait of the Martell Medium Laser is its firing rate. This, in general, seems to be a trait shared with most Martel lasers, even though the Martell of the Shadowhawk in Gray Death Trilogy, the Martell of Wolves on the Border's Locust, the Martell of Wolve's SHK was similar to that of the Gray Death but unique from that of the Locust even the Wolves of the Border's storyline. Though upon further digging this is because some sources denote the Locust as sporting a Martell model 5, as opposed to whatever the typical Martell model is.

The lecture on medium lasers, describes the Martell, Diverse Optics, and Defiance B3M to be using very similar laser mediums and pump concepts although it is implied each company handles the same premise in different ways resulting in similar but still certifiably unique weapons. Another source (it escapes me right now but I found it while rummaging between House Steiner for Defiance B3M, TROs, and Objective Raids so it is one of them) claims that the Martell Medium Laser is the most efficient of all medium lasers. But how to define it?

Well, I combined a little of each trait to make that efficiency. It may not have the most damage per shot, but combined with its rapid rate of fire for a standard laser, it can achieve its rated damage quicker than most lasers. The high number of shots also ensures it maintains or slightly surpasses its rated damage while doing so. Martell medium lasers are also typically depicted with protruding barrels, whether on the Battlemaster, the Locust, Shadowhawk, several catapult designs (though not all) and numerous others (assassin and potentially Vindicator seem to be the exceptions), the Martell juts out with a cylinder-like barrel. As such, the efficiency also extends to its range. All in all this makes the Martell line a strong contender.

Ostmann Industries

"Gone since 2777..."

(...yet we licensed everything out so you'll be making/buying and killing each other with our products til the end of time.)

Fuersturm-b

Spoiler

Fluff: "First appearing on the Ostroc which debuted in 2511, there are a number of striking differences between it and the models currently in use. The first is the use of an advanced composite ceramic gain medium..."
Availability new: Extremely rare.
Availability used: Uncommon.
Manufactured by: Ostmann Industries (in full production until 2777.)
Manufactured on: Terra (nothing factory fresh).

Elements:
Barrel type: Normal
Optical Resonator: Confocal arrangement with off-axis fixed insertion mirror and mobile pickup mirror
Gain Medium: Advanced composite ceramic gain medium
Pump: Separate Confinement Heterostructure laser diode with quantum well
Power Level: 2 MW
Cooling Jacket: Standard.


Factors:
Beam Color: 1523nm (low frequency end of Infrared, invisible without infrared sensors.)
Beam Type: Continuous Wave
Firing Delay: 0.3 seconds
Beam Duration: Up to 1 full second
Damage/Time: 0.5 damage / 0.1 seconds.
Damage/Shot: Up to 5 damage
Heat per Shot: 2-5 Thermal Units. (#)
Damage/Rating: 5 damage
Shots to net Rating: 1 shots/rating, minimum
Heat per Rating: 2.5-4 Thermal Units.
Minimum Cooldown: 1.5 seconds
Recommended Cooldown: 2 seconds.
Minimum Time Rated Damage: 0.3+1.0 =1.3 seconds to achieve 5 damage.
Overheat Threshold: # TU
Overheat Expectations: EM Interference.
Reliability: Standard
Endurance: Standard
Ease of Repair: Standard

Synopsis:

Kon's opinion: An interesting find. This wea

Ostmann industries
"which debuted in 2511, there are a number of striking differences between it and the models currently in use. The first is the use of an advanced composite ceramic gain medium"
But the most interesting difference is in the design of the optical cavity. While it appears to be a confocal configuration, notice the off-axis fixed insertion mirror here and the mobile pickup mirror on the other side. The causes the beam to travel in a circular zigzag path basically folding the light beam and resulting in a path-length significantly longer then that found in other models. This creates a wavelength of an astounding 1523 nm.

Also pay particular attention to the pump source. While it also uses laser diodes, the thickness of the active region in the Separate Confinement Heterostructure is so thin it acts as a quantum well. Technically speaking, the Fuersturm-b uses Quantum cascade laser diodes as its pump source. Unfortunately, between the Amaris Civil War and the First Succession War, Ostmann Industries’ sole production facility was reduced to ashes by 2777 and the secrets of the diode manufacture, as well as the composition of the ceramic gain medium, went up in smoke along with it. It is interesting to note, however, that before its destruction Ostmann Industries licensed both its Ostscout and Ostsol to Kong Interstellar, but for whatever reasons both of those models used the Tronel line of lasers as opposed to the Fuersturms.

List of lasers still to be made.
Recent List:

Spoiler

Resources to check out
Techmanual page 226 to 227 laser - standard laser
Techmanual page 291 Heavy Weapons and Equipment (cont)
Era Report 2750 page 99 "laser systems"
technical readout 3050 page 50-51 FLE-17 Flea

Small lasers
Allied Technologies 1 on Nirasaki by New Age Systems Incorporated
Bowie Electronics (small laser) on Terra by Bowie Industries
Chris Comp 32 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
On Marduk by Victory (Norse Battlemech Works)
On New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
On Oliver by Brigadier Corportions

Defiance A5L on Duran by Rastaban Agricultural
On Hesperus II by Defiance Industries
Defiance B3S on Furillo and Hesperus II by Defiance Industries

Dinatec Mark III on Terra by Mitchell Vehicles

Diverse Optics Type 1 on Glasgow by Wesley Industries
(Take a note on Glasgow)

Diverse Optics 10
on Alpheratz by Alliance Defenders Limited
On Andurien by Brooks, Inc.
On Chahar by Trellshire Heavy Industries
On Irian by Diverse Optics Incorporated.

Dodd on Soul and Terra by Blankenburg Technologies

Exostar on Delavan by Dynamico Limited
Exostar-2C on Episilon Eridani by Kressly Warowrks
Exostar IV on Mars by Wrangker Aerospace

Firmir LaserLite on Betelgeuse by Firmir Weaponry
Hessen IX on Terra by Skobel MechWorks
Intek on Terra by Ford Military Limited and Skobel MechWorks
Jackson Model 12 by Indicass by Ceres Metals Industries
On Solaris by Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated

Kajuka Type 1 Stiletto on Sian by Saroyan Special Projects and on Texlos by Kajuka (Aerospace Division)
(Possible thought; very narrow beam laser with a lot of range? Long beam-style?)

Krieger on Orestes by Odin Manufacturing and on Terra by Pandora 'Mech Works

Magna on Stewart by Corean Enterprises
Magna Starglow on Outreach by Blackwell Heavy Industries
Magna Mk I on Lopez, Sterope, and Taurus by Magna Metals Inc.

Martell by Asuncion/Bernado by Earthwerks Incorporated and Fletcher by Flame Tech

McCorkel on Terra by Caletra Fighters

Starflash I on Atreus by Imstar Aerospace

Aberdovey MK II on Epsilon and Eridani by Kressly Warworks
Allied Technologies 2 on Nirasaki by New Age Systems Incorporated
Agra 1L on New Samarkand by New Samarkand Armor Works
Agra 3L on Aix-la-Chapelle by Diplan Mechyards
Agra 3L on Luthien by Defiance Motors
Blankenburg on Terra by Blankenburg Technologies
Bowie Electronics on Terra by Bowie Industries.
Ceres Armsn Capella and S. Ives by Ceres Metals Industries.
ChrisComp 38 on New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
Chris Comp 39 on New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
Defiance B3M
Built on
Planet | Company
Hesperus II by Defiance
Furillo by Defiance
Coventry by Coventry Metal Works
Pandora by Red Devil Industries

In use on:
Banshee
Cobra
Commando
Enfield
Falconer
Gunslinger
Hatchetman
Lynx
Porcupine
Salamander
Savannah Master
Scarabus
Spector
Starslayer
Thunder Hawk
Verfolger
Wolfhound
Zeus

Check 3025 and 3025 revised.

Diplan M3 on Luthien by Defiance Motors
Diplass on Apollo by Diplass Technologies
Diplass Optimax on Apollo by Diplass Technologies

Diverse Optics 2 on Corey by Hellespoint Industrials, on Lushann by Lushann Industrials Limited, on New Vandenburg by Concordat Telecome and TransStellar, on Sian by Hellespont 'Mech Works, and on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries.

Diverse Optics 14 (MLmade on Chahar Trellshire Heavy Industries)
Diverse Optics 18 on Alphard by Marian Arms Incorporated, on Chahar by Trellshire Heavy Industries, on Irian by Diverse Optics Incorporated, on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries
Diverse Optics 20 on Kessel by Diverse Optics Incorporated

Firefy Type II (n Apollo y Roe Weapon Systems)
Firmir Standard(n betalgby Firmir Weaponry)
Harmon Starclass (n Son Hoa by StarCorp Industries)
Hellion B-II on (Andurien and Westovery Free Worlds Defense Industries)
Hellion Spitfire (Terra by Ford Military Limited)
Hellion-V (Andurien by Bergan Industries and Brooks, Inc. On Irian by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited. On Kalidasa by Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated, on Kendall by both Bergan Industries and Brooks Inc. On Shiro III by Grumman Amalgamated. On Trellisane by Gutierrez Aerospace.)
Intek (on Asuncion by Kallon Industries. On Arc-Royal by TharHes Industries. On New Syrtis by Johnston Industries. On Terra by Leopard Armor)
Irian Weapon Works Super 6 (on Irian by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited and on Kendall by Kali-Yama - Alphard Trading Corporation)
Kajuka Type 2 Bright Blossom (on Sian by Saroyan Special Projects and on Texlos by Kajuka Aerospace Division).
Krieger (on Orestes by Odin Manufacturing, on Terra by Pandora 'Mech Works)
Krupp Model 2 (Mars by Krupp Stellar Technologies, Inc.)
Magna Mk II (on Kalidasa by Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated. On Lopez, by Magna, Mars by General Mechanics, New alencia by General Motors, Shiro III by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited, Stewart by Corean Enterprises, Twycross by Trellshire Heavy Industries).


Martell on
Alshain by Bergan Industries
Corey by Hollis Incorporated
Delayan by Dynamico Limited
Fletcher by Flame Tech
El Dorado by General Motors
Pinard by Pinard Protectorates Limited
Terra by Skobel MechWorks
Stewart by Corean Enterprises
Victoria by Shengli Arms
Wallis by Ronin Incorporated

Martell Model 5 on Canopus IV by Majesty Metals and Manufacturing.

Maxell Chukchi III by Maxell Metals Incorporated
Maxell TR on Terra by Bowie Industries
Maxell-UD6 on Terra by Caletra Fighters

(Note Omicron is made by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry)
Omicron 950 n Terra by Aldis Industries
Omicron 3000 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry and on Illiushin by Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
Omicron 4000 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
(note: Fusigon no longer offers the 950 from their facilities).

OMI HighBurn on New Earth by the New Earth Trading Company

Photech 806c on New Avalaon by Corean Enterprises
Phototech 806c (typo?) on Terra by StarCorps Industries
Rassal Blue-Beam on Arcturus by Arcturan Arms (goes extinct 3049)
Sapphire on Terra by Grumman Industries
Starflash on Terra by Leopard Armor and Skobel MechWorks
Starflash II on Amity by Imstar Aerospace, on Atreus by Imstar Aerospace and on trellisane by Grumman Amalgamated
Victory 23R on Marduk by Victory Industries (formerly Norse Battlemech Works)
Marten Medium Laser on Talon by Kallon Weapon Industries.

Large Lasers
BlazeFire Systems on New Syrtis by Johnston Industries
Bulldog on Ingersoll by Bulldog Enterprise on Proserina also by Bulldog.
ChrisComp 43 Special on New Avalon by Achernar BattleMechs.
Cyclops Eye on Skye by Cyclops Incorporated
(Developed towards the end of the Third Succession War primarily for the Drillson Heavy Hover Tank, the Cyclops Eye was an unconventional design. While most Succession Wars era heavy lasers feature vulnerable long barrels and focusing mirrors, this system needed only a small slit-like emitter. This was a result of the system's use of a unique combination of laser and Particle Beam Technology. Instead of simply firing a beam of light or a stream of particles, the Cyclops Eye used a combination of both to produce a beam of significant penetrating power. The effect of this weapon is comparable to the Large Laser systems produced by Diverse Optics or Martell. The Cyclops Eye however is less vulnerable to damage than a conventional system and is also easier to maintain and manufacture.) Sources: Techncal Readout Page 50 (revised page 54). Technical readout 3039 page 62.

Defiance B3L on Hesperus II by Defiance Industries
Diverse Optics Type 20
Diverse Optics Type 30 (Kessel by Diverse Optics Incorporated)
Exostar on Delavan by Dynamico Limited
Firmir MaxiLase on Beterlgeuse by Firmir Weaponry
Krupp Model 32 on Mars by Krupp Stellar Technologies, Inc.
Magna MK III on Lopez by Magna, on Mars by General Mechanics, on Pandora by Red Devil Industries

Maxell SR on Mars by Wangker Aerospace

Nightwind on Loxley by Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated
RAMTech 1200 on New Kyoto RAMTech Industries
Redbeam on ???? by Lushann Industrials Limited
(Note: Due to the design engineers focusing on the Redbeam's ability to withstand damage and maintain effectiveness, the weapon is larger in size and more unwieldly than others in the same class. This, in the opinion of the authors of STarCorps Industries' Notable Players report, makes it more appropriate to heavy tanks than more mobile BattleMechs)^Reference: Masters and Minions the StarCorps Dossiers page 163 (note this sounds like a good thing to check out)
Sunglow on Outreach by Blackwell Heavy Industries
Sunglow Type 2 on Detroit by Detroit Consolidated MechWorks and on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries
Wu Heavy on Cpricorn III by Wu Industries

Old List

Spoiler

Small
(Blaster style)
(Sustained beam style)


Medium
Argra 27C
Argra 3L
Blackwell Opal
Blankenburg Technologies
Ceres Arms (2, indistinct)
ChrisComp 39
Diplan M3
Diplass Optima
Firefly Type II
Firmir Standard
Hellion-V (also written as Hellion V)
Hellion-b II
Hellion Spitfire
Intek (non-specific)
Intek Hellborer
Irian Weapons Works (non-specific)
Irian Weapons Works Super 6
Kajuka Type 2 "Bright Blossom"

Maxell (2 non-specifics)
OMI HighBurn (New Earth Trading Company original)
Starflash II
Tronel II
Victory 23R
Victory 23F

Large
(Blaster style)
(Sustained beam style)

Type 30

Pulse
Small
(Rapid fire)
(Powerhouse)
(Scatter)

Medium
(Rapid fire)
(Powerhouse)

Large
(Rapid fire)
(Powerhouse)
Diverse Optics 20


_____

Special laser types

ER versions (low priority but worth dabbling into for future proofing)

Clan variants (future proofing, will later put this at bottom)

TAG (not sure if will do anything with this...)

Blazer

X-pulse

Feel free to mention any types not mentioned.

Edited by Koniving, 26 August 2019 - 01:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Kidnapping this spot too.
Thinking of lasers up above, ppcs, flamers and plasma weaponry down here (future-proofing)

Early formatting (check back Sunday for some meat in these spots)

Fusigon Heavy Weaponry

PPC
Fusigon Long Tooth

Magna Metals Inc

PPC Magna Hellstar
ERPPC Magna Sunspot

Ashlain Weaponry and Wakazashi Enterprises

PPC
Lord's Light
ERPPC
Lord's Light 2
HeavyPPC
Lord's Light 3



PPCs
Ceres Arms Smasher
Donal
Kinslaughter
Kreuss
Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon
Tiegart


PPCs
ER PPCs
Light PPCs
Heavy PPCs
Snub PPCs

________

Flamers
(Flame thrower types)
Hotseat (Cicada)
Firestorm
Flametech K213
Skylight Model 5
Olympian (Irianian)
Olmypus
Zippo (licensed)

Hotshot (licensed)
Flameshot
(Projectile types)

______

Plasma weaponry
(Here for completion)
._____

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2019 - 04:15 PM.

[Koniving]

Opinion sought:

Sort weapons by Class, then by company?
i.e. small laser, medium laser (company/brand, variants with that brand name), large laser

Or sort weapons by Company, then by class?
ie. Company/brand, medium laser (variants of ML made by that company) and any other weapons, next company.

[Karl Streiger]

Well - you are doing to much work, again.
Some of your Medium Lasers might have just a different wiring or use an an Energizer Storage Bank instead of a Duracell or a Fuji lense instead of a Kodak.

What you need are different lightwaves and lens diameters. This page has some good input:
http://panoptesv.com...y/DeathRay.html

For the Opinion Sort by company.... (and when its a licence build mark it as such)

Oh btw: some of your Medium Lasers are only "used" once (for example the OMI (only in the Manticore))

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 03 June 2019 - 01:32 AM, said:

For the Opinion Sort by company.... (and when its a licence build mark it as such)

Oh btw: some of your Medium Lasers are only "used" once (for example the OMI (only in the Manticore))

Sounds good.

By that, from the example I assume you mean that they are unique to something? (Wanted to do a complete list, that way any unique items would be, of course, true in case if -- for example -- a manticore appears in the game).
(Would still allow them to be salvaged so long as its mount type is compatible, as you might remember the plan is to instead have sized softpoints instead of hardpoints, restrict by mount type rather than equipment type, and slap on different difficulties for the technicians with lasting issues for the owner when their designs are pushing the boundaries.)

[Koniving]

On break at work.

At the moment there is a version conflict between the defiance laser and the diverse optics lasers.

Defiance though filled in later was using an earlier setup, in which a rating had to be done within 7.5 seconds and ready to restart by the ten seconds mark, with no overheat setup or "push it" system.

Diverse was done with some of the more advanced lore I found but with a rating done in 5 seconds and must be ready to fire again by the ten second mark. Also it has an overheat setup to put risk vs reward in terms of pushing the laser in emergencies. My
So as I copied the defiance thing from my paper I started to realize...this isn't gonna work anymore. So I fiddled with some numbers with only like 15 minutes to spare and finally said "I will mess with it later".

Defiance would work against the ballistics I already designed but as is it's flatout inferior in everyway to diverse optics and that wasn't the goal. But... I didn't set the beam times or cool times on the diverse optics. In fact for the most part I can't really take credit for most of their stats, BT laid them flat from the pumps to the gain mediums to their colors. All I did was work on overheat conditions and tone down their power. 2000 megajoules in a 0.001 second beam is insane power! (Modern day lasers are pumping out 105 KE for 10 second beams as an upgrade from 30kw for 30 second beams, 2000 megajoules at 0.001 seconds is 2,000KW! Would detonate tanks with that kind of power. That's 2 MWs in an instant...and conflicted heavily with older lore (not to mention such beam durations are impossible in a video game) so I had to weaken them a bit. Thankfully apparently before firing off a shot some of them take around a second to excite their lasers so in some cases I am keeping that or splitting it so half is amplification time and half is beam time.

(With that kind of firepower you'd never use anything else.)

[Stingray Productions]

Whew! That's a lot to go over! Certainly a lot to consider!

[Koniving]

True. Though in large part the weapon stats are mostly for myself. Having it worked out and documented means once the game comes out (I would be getting mine early per the preorder) I can go in, give a quick try at vanilla.

Probably as soon as I use the shadow hawk's AC/5 I will probably throw a fit at an 80mm Armstrong J11 AC pumping out 5 damage in a single projectile when the most well known BT shot count fact is 150mm needing 10 shots for 20 damage (2 damage per shell) and 130mm needing 3 shots to net 5... For most that's likely the only hint of lore they have in regards to acs...

The limitations of many old mechwarrior titles are long gone and I am looking for a battletech simulator. Modding mw5 is the easiest way to get there.

Also writing stuff out lets me visualize it and get a feel for it. That's why as I was writing the Defiance down I realized "this isn't gonna work anymore" after a couple of changes I made to how they would be rated as a whole.

Another thing I will have to reconsider... Is to keep splitting heat between reactor and weapon for lasers, or have the 3 heat for an ml just be at the reactor and leave the cooling jacket to handle the weapon heat itself (which I can then make much hotter and since it's separate, heatsinks wouldn't touch it unless the cooling jacket is inadequate, degraded or damaged.). At the moment heat is split between the two. Heat at the weapon is important to consider as I have it so that separate of core heat, weapons could overheat and cause problems.
(Some of this is again more for myself in case if I forget before my shift is over.)

[SilentScreamer]

Koniving, on 28 May 2019 - 01:11 AM, said:

Energy Weapons:

In a lore such as battletech there is an ever pressing issue that comes up... Why is everything the same? Well, it isn't supposed to be but the source rules for every interactive spinoff basically gives us the real world equivalent of every assault rifle can hit something at 300 feet and does 5 damage for one magazine. Obviously there is a problem with that. The Scar-L, M16-A3 and L85A3 may use the same bullet but the three assault rifles are very different.

There are over 66+ IS medium laser variants when including variations and sub-licensed spinoffs and even that is an incomplete list from Sarna in which I very quickly found even more that are unlisted at Sarna's medium laser page in just a couple of old TROs. At the very least, there are 40+ uniquely identified medium laser weapons.

Funny that MWO's first implemented module system represented exactly what you are talking about; ex: Add a Range Module to your standard medium laser and it gets more range, but has a flaw attached like higher heat or recharge time.

The TRO entries were fun fluff , but things can become too complicated. Even with a computer game instead of a playing tabletop. Keep It Simple.

Like playing Rolemaster instead of D&D. Figuring out the results of one attack should not require referencing multiple tables and enough time to make a pot of coffee..

Edited by SilentScreamer, 03 June 2019 - 08:06 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 03 June 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

2000 megajoules at 0.001 seconds is 2,000KW!

Don't know if this is a running gag based on the wrong formula of BattleTechnolgy.

But 2GJ at 0.001 seconds are ..... 2 TW - because W = J/s - the issue is not the W the problem are the Joules.
A reasonable laser will be pulsed (leaves the "Pulse" laser questionable-maybe a multi barrel high energy pulse laser) - several low energy pulses with a frequencey of several MegaHerz or even GigaHerz - will have the best effect.

For example a single 100KJ Pulse of 1µs focused on a 5mm spot will blast a 3x1cm crater into RHA - and crater is what you want.

SilentScreamer, on 03 June 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Like playing Rolemaster instead of D&D. Figuring out the results of one attack should not require referencing multiple tables and enough time to make a pot of coffee..

Good words and you are correct

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 03 June 2019 - 11:47 PM, said:

Don't know if this is a running gag based on the wrong formula of BattleTechnolgy.

But 2GJ at 0.001 seconds are ..... 2 TW - because W = J/s - the issue is not the W the problem are the Joules.
A reasonable laser will be pulsed (leaves the "Pulse" laser questionable-maybe a multi barrel high energy pulse laser) - several low energy pulses with a frequencey of several MegaHerz or even GigaHerz - will have the best effect.

For example a single 100KJ Pulse of 1µs focused on a 5mm spot will blast a 3x1cm crater into RHA - and crater is what you want.

1 megajoule / second =
1 megawatt

As such a "peek" pulse at 4,000 megajoules is supposedly 0.001 = 4 megawatts. They've got a number of interesting things, for example the omicron 3000 laser has an exceptional peek power, but because it can only manage 0.0013 blah blah... Tired.

Anyway, I have intentions for lower frequency continuous wave lasers. Just need to make them fit the newer rating.

SilentScreamer, on 03 June 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Funny that MWO's first implemented module system represented exactly what you are talking about; ex: Add a Range Module to your standard medium laser and it gets more range, but has a flaw attached like higher heat or recharge time.

If you know what this refers to in terms of MWO, you might have an inkling as to why that is so familiar. Least until 2014 just prior to the Clan release.

Quote

The TRO entries were fun fluff , but things can become too complicated. Even with a computer game instead of a playing tabletop. Keep It Simple.

You'd be surprised how simple complexity really is. Ever played a Battlefield game?
How many really dig into the stats of every single weapon; most just use what feels good for them. Some use personal favorites even if they're not that great; for example in Bad Company 2 my favorite gun is the M14EBR...it's actually terrible, but because the M14, M1 Garand, and similar rifles are among my favorites, I will make it a point to use them in any game I can.

The point is, I have no intention for players to dig through the stats of every single weapon. I expect them to, early on, use what they can get their hands on and later, use what feels good with how they play (and as such, a goal is to have a variant of every weapon for every playstyle).


Guy: Brags about himself and his gun for almost a minute.
Revi: Shoots him. "Shut up, can't you see I wasn't even listening?" "If you can hit your target, pretty much any gun will do the trick."

Quote

Like playing Rolemaster instead of D&D. Figuring out the results of one attack should not require referencing multiple tables and enough time to make a pot of coffee..

The other aspect, is a medium laser is a medium laser when it boils down to it.

Yes one might go "zap zap" and another might go "Whooosh" and yet another may go "Bzat bzat bzat bzat!", but within 5 seconds or less of use you will have done approximately 5 damage and generated somewhere around 3 heat. You could completely ignore all the stats, all the other stuff, and you'd be able to have a rough idea of what you're doing in terms of damage. By the time your one medium laser quits on you to cool off, you'll have done 5 damage..

Unlike HBS BT or MW5 Mercs' vanilla, there will be no Medium Laser +++ which ends up doing more damage than a large laser. No ******** guns. No RPG level up mechanics. It's simply your AK-74s versus his M4A3, your Makarov versus his M9 Beretta, wait, that's not a, oh **** he has a Desert Eagle! (Definitely can't have a moment like that in MWO... but, the difference between a KGC-000 and a KGC-0000 isn't visual in any way, its actually impossible to tell the difference until it fires.. That's something I want to capture.)

About the only real reason to pay attention to anything might be to pay attention to the names so you're not mixing and matching medium lasers.

Besides, the results of damage is what the enemy display icon is for. (Until 2012, I had no idea what kind of damage large lasers did compared to medium lasers, or the damage difference from AC 2, 5, 10 or 20. I liked streaks because they hit things, I liked autocannons because of the sound, and blue lasers had more umph but green lasers were light. For MWO I still largely ignore the stats of weapons and use whatever the hell I want. Can't say it makes me great or anything; but its just more fun that way. So think of all these weapons as a selection of things to play with.
)
Players won't be building the weapons so they won't really have to dig through stats unless that's what makes them click. You'll either find or buy them and the idea is as time progresses you'll find your favorite and enjoy them.

[SilentScreamer]

Koniving, on 04 June 2019 - 03:12 AM, said:

Players won't be building the weapons so they won't really have to dig through stats unless that's what makes them click. You'll either find or buy them and the idea is as time progresses you'll find your favorite and enjoy them.

That is a good goal.

Although from my experience with other MW:Merceneries titles it should read, "...you'll find your favorite and cry when it is destroyed by a critical hit." I swear, my NPC lancemates never expressed appreciation on how difficult it was to salvage a Clan PPC!

Edited by SilentScreamer, 04 June 2019 - 05:26 AM.

[Koniving]

SilentScreamer, on 04 June 2019 - 05:25 AM, said:

That is a good goal.

Although from my experience with other MW:Merceneries titles it should read, "...you'll find your favorite and cry when it is destroyed by a critical hit." I swear, my NPC lancemates never expressed appreciation on how difficult it was to salvage a Clan PPC!

Good point.
Once "Clan" tech is said to be coming to the game I'll really work on them, too. But by then, all you'd really have to do is whatever you had to in order to get salvage, I would think... Lore-wise the big issue was making it work with IS tech, as your average technician is gonna be baffled.

That said, its true you might find something that'll be like "YAY!" because I am including relics (some are already under ballistics which is due for an update this weekend), no longer produced weapons and lost tech as things you could find 'early' with like a 1% chance of appearing.. Just so you that you can find it and cry when you lose it. Its especially gonna be crippling when running an Ironman mode which I hope MW5: Mercs will feature.

Rassal Blue Beam, a medium laser that's practically a large laser in a single ton (5 MW is a large laser output, but Rassal is listed as having it; it also literally overheats on every single shot causing numerous issues to the user with anything short of a factory-fresh model...which it hasn't been made for hundreds of years) with issues that led to it never being used on any other mech officially, never being produced again within 50 years of its creation, and going extinct by 3049. Almost as if...you, as the main character of MW5 Mercs, would have the last one to ever exist... I can think of no greater tears.

(You're still looking at only 5 damage within 5 seconds; except it will have the fastest delivery and shortest face-time of any medium laser and for a single shot it'd be about as devastating as say a Mech Hunter AC/20 or Tomodzuru AC/20 (which do 5 damage per shell, the most powerful AC/20s until you encounter a Demolisher). That is so long as you can deal with the lengthy delay before it fires and the fact that it will literally only be able to fire once every 10 seconds. Though rather than a delay I might find it necessary to have it 'charge up' by holding the button, as missing would be a frustrating issue...Its a shame that, as it is, we clearly won't be seeing a Crossbow in Mechwarrior 5 Mercs. I hope someone creates one to mod in so you can 'properly' find a Rassal Blue Beam, otherwise I'll have to hide it on an Ace ["hero"].)

Edited by Koniving, 04 June 2019 - 10:42 AM.

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 04 June 2019 - 03:12 AM, said:

The other aspect, is a medium laser is a medium laser when it boils down to it.

Yes one might go "zap zap" and another might go "Whooosh" and yet another may go "Bzat bzat bzat bzat!", but within 5 seconds or less of use you will have done approximately 5 damage and generated somewhere around 3 heat. You could completely ignore all the stats, all the other stuff, and you'd be able to have a rough idea of what you're doing in terms of damage. By the time your one medium laser quits on you to cool off, you'll have done 5 damage..

That might be true in a turn based tactics game like both TT and HBS' Battletech, but in a real time sim like MWO, that kind of "cosmetic" performance difference isn't going to be cosmetic. Players already harp on how PPFLD weapons are better than weapons that do damage over time like many current lasers in MWO do, so if MWO offered a variety of Medium Lasers all with different performance characteristics that add up to "5 damage per 10 seconds", they'd absolutely go for the high damage per shot, low rate of fire ones over the rapid fire/long burn, low damage per shot lasers.

On the flip side, players that favor staring at the enemy and brawling may favor the opposite type of lasers that favor rapid fire over individual shot damage.

Still, MWO may have been a very different game if PGI had take the damage stats from Battletech and read them as "DPS" instead of "damage per shot".

[Koniving]

evilauthor, on 07 June 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

That might be true in a turn based tactics game like both TT and HBS' Battletech, but in a real time sim like MWO, that kind of "cosmetic" performance difference isn't going to be cosmetic. Players already harp on how PPFLD weapons are better than weapons that do damage over time like many current lasers in MWO do, so if MWO offered a variety of Medium Lasers all with different performance characteristics that add up to "5 damage per 10 seconds", they'd absolutely go for the high damage per shot, low rate of fire ones over the rapid fire/long burn, low damage per shot lasers.

I completely agree that they would. I also know that PGI is incompetent in its delivery. You might note they did try something very similar to my plans quite a long time ago...but tacked it to "modules" that had global give-and-take tradeoffs...and then gave that a one-way level up mechanic that basically locked you into that tradeoff....which is why it failed.

By now, pretty much everyone is aware that there will be some players that immediately gravitate toward the high damage per shot. I plan on offering them. But it's one of the reasons for having the weapon overheat setup under the "Heat System" thread, as well as weapon and equipment heat tracking, and most importantly heatsinks having a separate threshold from the reactor.
(This way the heatsinks can clog up and be busy, trickling down the cooling process and only relieving things based on (hopefully user-controlled) priority.)

Not only is it lore friendly (in regards to technical readouts and the novels), but it also allows for greater control over balance. Weapons overheated? Welp they don't work until cooled and you won't be coolin' any time soon, but since your heatsink priority is on the engine at least you can run. So you'll lose a few heatsinks in the process, but it's better than the alternative.

But back to that gravitation toward quick-damage. I want to assure you that I've got it covered and that this is also why it goes well beyond simply "everything equals out in the end."

So if you'll indulge me:

Lets go take a look at the problem and answer it with the most extreme example I can pull out of my backside. Among the many lasers with long beams or multi-shot short beam, there's one that is intended to stand out among everything altogether. The Rassal Blue Beam.

But first, a quick comparison with as few numbers as possible:
Diverse Optics 2: 2.5 damage per shot, 0.2 second beam time per shot...
Diverse Optics 18: 1.6 damage per shot. 0.1 second beam time per shot.
Rassal Blue Beam: 5 damage per shot. 0.1 second beam time per shot.

There's definitely a clear winner, now isn't there?
Lets look a little closer.
Accounting for all the stats that would affect time-to-get-rating.. (think of it as time to achieve expected damage under perfect conditions)
Diverse Optics 2: 4.4 seconds minimum to get 5 damage.
Diverse Optics 18: 3.9 seconds minimum to get 4.8 damage.
Rassal Blue Beam: Less than 1 second minimum to get 5 damage.

Again... a very clear winner.

Here we are with the Rassal Blue Laser which is a medium laser that does all 5 damage in a single shot, with the shortest possible beam duration for that shot, with the fastest time to achieve the rated damage of all laser weapons altogether. Toss anything else out the airlock, nothing else is useful after this...

...So what's the catch?

• It still manages to have you wait longer than any other laser weapon between the click to fire and the actual shot.
  
• Will immediately "overheat", causing interference with your HUD, your lock on systems, etc. for several seconds.
  
• Not so gradually degrades and eventually will disintegrate the cooling jacket, which means every shot will be worse than the last.
  
• Will leave you unable to reuse the weapon again for nearly 9 seconds. Hope you didn't miss as that 0.1 second beam time is gone faster than you can say "****!" Also hope it wasn't your only weapon.
  
• Speaking of: It has an energy draw as high as some of the highest large lasers, so firing too many at once will cause the reactor to stall, and given that Fusion power plants require an immense amount of energy to start up, pressing "P" or "O" isn't gonna do a thing to un-**** the user's situation.

Spoiler

Rest assured, even the large lasers don't draw all their power in an instant, in fact nothing else does, so firing lasers together isn't going to be a bad thing... though it probably won't be as popular as in MWO.

Now, again, that's the extreme example. More mild examples already exist over in the ballistic thread. As a more mild example there's a general truth that the more up front the damage is, one of two things happen: 1) Either the time between shots or to net the final result is drastically longer, or 2) the overall net result is diminished.

Rassal Blue Beam is an example thing 1 with added 'love'.

Won't directly name names, but some quick short-hands from the ballistic thread for demonstrating those two things follow. As this is a showcase, I'm starting with the standard for comparison dubbed the "Control."

Control (note the time to get 20 damage)
"20" rated weapon nets 2 damage per shot in 10 shots? 20 damage but netted in about 2 to 2.5 seconds of firing.

Demonstration of "thing 1" (Note the time to get 20 damage.)
"20" rated weapon nets 5 damage per shot in 4 shots? 20 damage but netted in about 3.5 to 4 seconds worth of firing.

Demonstration of "thing 2" (Note the final result.)
A "20" weapon needs only 2 damage to net its rating and needs to get both shots off within 2 seconds? 8 damage per shot, 16 damage in that rating.
(A weapon's rating is defined as being "loosely grouped according to their damage versus armor " (Sarna, http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon pulled 6/8/19 at 6:09 AM EST)

In a faceoff, simply having the biggest damage per shot isn't going to be enough to decide who will win, even if everyone will net the damage rating in 5 seconds or less. In fact given two otherwise equal opponents of equal health in a battle of attrition, the biggest gun with the biggest front loaded damage will lose a straight fair fight. The idea, naturally, is to incite playstyles indicative of what the weapon is meant for. That front loaded weapon is gonna favor pop-and-go tactics or "sharp shooters."

Meanwhile, the opposite is true of low damage/shot weapons with many shots. For the opposing extreme example lets take a look at the problem. The "other end's" ever so big example from BT lore is 100 shots for a "20" cannon. I've got a table of damage per caliber shell, assuming everything did 20 damage overall: on it Pontiac 100 would be 30mm. (As such, AC/10 Pontiac 50 would also be 30mm to net 10 damage in 50 shots, Pontiac Light would be 30mm to net 5 damage in 25 shots..etc..) 20 damage / 100 shots = 0.2 damage per shot which is the same as the GM Whirlwind/L's 30mm AC/2 for 10 shots. Thus the problem; there's literally no incentive to use it.

But there's a novel in which Justin Allard's Pontiac 100 stolen from a Victor and used in the Yen Lo Wang is actually described as 40mm. As it happens this gave me the answer I was looking for to the problem of low-end long face-time weapons. 40mm on my table of lore-noted weapons nets 0.25 damage/shot, which means that the Pontiac 100 in its hard-shell protected rotary cannon of an AC/20 glory would net 0.25 * 100 = 25 damage per rating. (its described as having 10 barrels encased in an armored cooling shell giving it the appearance of a single bigger barrel) So what -- if you're having to spray it for maybe up to 2 seconds? You're still getting 25 damage in the time that guy with the autocannon from "demonstration of thing 1" can net 10 out of 20 damage. The risk of damage spread is the tradeoff someone favoring it would be more than willing to accept in that exchange.

(The same book also gives me says there's 3k shells in 3 tons of ammo which suggests 200 shells per rating for the Pontiac 100 but 100 shells per rating is the popular number and anything greater is not gonna happen anyway due to technical limitations in games and any reasonable 'shooting time'. Since 100 shells per firing is used in a couple of other novels, even if some accidentally say the weapon is also 100mm, that's what I'll use.).

Quote

On the flip side, players that favor staring at the enemy and brawling may favor the opposite type of lasers that favor rapid fire over individual shot damage.

And indeed, as you say, the rapid fire over time would encourage players that would prefer an all out brawl to do exactly that.. and yet because the rating is achieved faster, they can also turn away and stay that way much sooner than some of the harder hitting weapons can if those harder-hitting weapons of the same class want to cash in on the full rating.

(From what I understand, the AI in MW5 has some preferences too such as sometimes they'll burst through buildings to get to you. I'll see if tweaking them is as easy as the AI in Megamek, if so I think I'll be able to flavor things with preferences for the AI; it makes sense for a Victor with that 25 damage Pontiac 100 to want to brawl it out when that gun's ready and go through buildings to get you. Meanwhile someone with a slower firing gun of high damage would probably be better off playing peekaboo or making strafe-runs to swoop in, shoot and run while keeping buildings intact to use as cover.)

My plan is to offer both worlds and all the in betweens, balance them out, and let myself (and others) enjoy an improved and more true to source material version of the sandbox PGI's given us... it might be a long time before we get another decent mech game.

Quote

Still, MWO may have been a very different game if PGI had take the damage stats from Battletech and read them as "DPS" instead of "damage per shot".

Completely agreed.

For how different MWO could have been: At the very least, Solaris and MWO as a whole would be a lot more interesting to spectate, which in turn might have made it more of an "E-sport" to watch. There's nothing exciting about a one-on-one battle when someone can two-shot an Annihilator by the CT when you are expecting something like two battleships going at it. 40 seconds to several minutes of waiting just for a battle to start, 11 more seconds at least for the two to encounter each other in Steiner Stadium, and the fight's over in 5 seconds.

I'm not sure if it was Solaris VII book or a novel involving it, but there's mention about Steiner Stadium that actually goes out to mention that its literal sand arena space's lack of obstacles had left fears that matches would be over far too quickly, citing anything under 2 minutes to be bad for ratings. (Thus the stadium has a system of 'walls' that emerge from the sand which could easily create a dynamic maze and ever changing field).

But the reason I mention that is a piece of Battletech literature whether it's the map info or from either the rulebook or a novel, which was written the late 80's to early 90's basically foretold and warned that any fight which lasts less than 2 minutes is bad for E-sports....around 30 years before a company made that very mistake in the same franchise! E-sports needs excitement, it needs buildup, it needs interest to build and time to reach the edge of the seat in anticipation.

Edited by Koniving, 08 June 2019 - 04:38 AM.

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 08 June 2019 - 04:10 AM, said:

But the reason I mention that is a piece of Battletech literature whether it's the map info or from either the rulebook or a novel, which was written the late 80's to early 90's basically foretold and warned that any fight which lasts less than 2 minutes is bad for E-sports....around 30 years before a company made that very mistake in the same franchise! E-sports needs excitement, it needs buildup, it needs interest to build and time to reach the edge of the seat in anticipation.

That's funny. Because canonically, Battletech's small unit actions (4 mechs vs 4 mechs) are only supposed to last 10-15 rounds once the shooting starts with each round being 10 seconds long (which is why mechs canonically rarely have more ammo than that). That's 100-150 seconds, or 1 min 40 seconds to 2 minutes 30 seconds of in-universe time, And that's WITH the inability to routinely focus fire on single components and weapons cycling much slower than they do in MWO.

[Koniving]

evilauthor, on 08 June 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

That's funny. Because canonically, Battletech's small unit actions (4 mechs vs 4 mechs) are only supposed to last 10-15 rounds once the shooting starts with each round being 10 seconds long (which is why mechs canonically rarely have more ammo than that). That's 100-150 seconds, or 1 min 40 seconds to 2 minutes 30 seconds of in-universe time, And that's WITH the inability to routinely focus fire on single components and weapons cycling much slower than they do in MWO.

Now try using two mechs and seeing if you can make a fight between just two of them last less than 12 turns.


In cases with 4 vs 4, you have concentrated fire, positioning, etc... plenty to make it interesting for a short bit of time. Though I confess I don't know if that's canonical but four versus four matches are usually that quick.

But one versus one, you have two machines trying to one up each other. Short of a headshot or someone deliberately overheating, how long does it last?

In Bt's "competitive" scene aka Solaris VII, there's plenty adding to it all. You have for example an infinite map of caves in which the two are encouraged to run and gun. Each time you leave the map, a new panel is tacked on either at random or at choice and it keeps going, often with the intention trapping the other in diverging paths to reunite later in order to cool down as needed. Then there's mazes with surprise weapons and mines. King of an artificial mountain. Arenas with walls that appear and shift every 10 seconds. That's the in universe E-sports environment, the competition. Now in those, how often is it resolved in less than two minutes?

And even with just "A Hunchback and Centurion encounter each other at point blank range in an open plain".... it isn't nearly so quick. I've had a match last around 21 turns, with the fighting having degraded into a punch-fest with weapons fire in between, curb stomps, and in one turn a sprinting tackle, as well as multiple grapples.

That's a big difference, and also the less than 2 minutes tidbit is in Solaris VII, in which the environment is a HUGE E-sports thing for a universe filled with thousands of planets..

Think about it, lets say you came from two jumps away and spent between 14 and 21 days traveling not including the travel from your planet to the jumpship and from the jumpship to Solaris VII, plus on the on-planet travel to the arena of choice, gone through hours of waiting in line to get seated... and you're treated to the main event. A skirmish lasting 57 seconds. Then comes the next one, welp that managed to last 20 seconds... welp, time to go home.

That'd be pretty disappointing.

Now I'm not sure if you're thinking of your example as say a real life esports thing, but remember that example is a military skirmish.. as opposed to an in-universe spectator sport. Between more gladiatorial combat and additional goals/obstacles, they stretch the fights as long as they can to increase the spectator investment and satisfaction... two things that are absolutely paramount for successful E-sports...if the spectators don't care, it'll never get off the ground. And for them to care it has to last long enough to get to the edge of that seat.

Edited by Koniving, 22 June 2019 - 01:06 AM.

[Koniving]

Pumped out another laser and a half, as well as notes to help jumpstart my next several lasers. Also added a couple of medium lasers missing from the list, including a certified long-beam type: the Fuerstrum-b.

The advantage of long-beam types is the significant reduction in time-to-reach rated damage in exchange for a higher demand in "face time", and apparently lasers using this low damage per fraction of second continuous beam also have the additional advantage of "the theoretical energy output could potentially result in a significantly less energy loss over distance given high enough collimation." (fluff from "the medium laser - a lecture by Dr. Hansen")

In other words: Significantly greater effective range with minimal damage dropoff [technically accurate range is still about the same as the farther something is the harder it is to focus the laser on a specific spot for durations of up to 2 seconds]. And through not blowing the full duration immediately at the acceptance of less overall damage put out in a single blast, the weapon can be "milked" for additional damage as long as one can manage its heat to net up to 9 damage 5 to 7 seconds of riding that laser's overheat mechanic. The disadvantage is if the full load is fired off without skill or a care in the world, the net damage would be less than the rated damage....still that'd be had in less time than most medium lasers, in exchange for the 1 to 2 second face time.

Between that and the use of Martell Model 5 laser at ranges of "several kilometers", there's some interesting possibilities.

Though so far, nothing here has currently included Battletech anti-laser measures, such as anti-laser aerosol counter-measures, the use of fires, smoke, smog, smoke bombs, sandstorms, etc. to reduce the effectiveness of lasers in combat... and that in vacuums while the heat is detrimental as hell due to the difficulty of forcing heat out, lasers have a significant range advantage without pesky things like atmospheres to interfere.

Edited by Koniving, 22 June 2019 - 01:31 AM.