96 replies to this topic

[Feral Clown]

Asym, on 07 June 2019 - 05:18 AM, said:

Because teams are toxic as all get out ! Teams farm........ That isn't the point of QP..........that is what FP and competitive are for !

If you don't have a "safe place" for new players to grow in, there is no future for the game........

Wouldn't an effective PSR system that worked better to balance out the talent on both sides help mitigate that?

As well it is pretty toxic to continually be as anti team as you have been and generally the better players who have success are pretty happy outside of being saddled with angry people who are not doing well. Have you ever really considered your own toxic behaviour and anger?

[Khobai]

Feral Clown, on 07 June 2019 - 04:51 PM, said:

Wouldn't an effective PSR system that worked better to balance out the talent on both sides help mitigate that?

How? The player population isnt big enough.

So when you have a bunch of elite players on one team. Theyre gonna wait in queue forever for an equally skilled team of players to queue up? That makes no sense.

The only solution I can see is a matchmaker that, as a last resort, forcibly breaks up groups and puts them on opposite teams.

Being able to play with your friends should be secondary to having two balanced teams.

Feral Clown, on 07 June 2019 - 04:51 PM, said:

As well it is pretty toxic to continually be as anti team as you have been and generally the better players who have success are pretty happy outside of being saddled with angry people who are not doing well. Have you ever really considered your own toxic behaviour and anger?

teams are toxic to the current state of the game though

people cant even get their friends to play because they get stomped so badly in group queue

allowing that crap is directly affecting the game's ability to retain new players.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2019 - 05:09 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

Games doomed.

You could break up teams, but that would simply result in lot of people who like large teams leaving the game.

Or you could keep things as they are which scares off new players.

Or you could let 2-3 mans into solo and watch as solo players bail after getting stomped by the few team players who are left doing the same thing they were doing in group queue. Oh and the players who want 2-3 mans in solo will themselves keep complaining as the same people who stomped them with large teams will frankly stomp them with 2 mans as well.

Theres nothing to be done that will fix this, the population is so small that both doing anything and doing nothing will result in people leaving.

Games got cancer

[MW Waldorf Statler]

PGI make with the MW Brand ,what Disney make with the SW brand with TLJ... ignore all from the Universe ..No Experience in each sense for a Multiplayer Game and after 2015 not Guys with experience for MWO and the Secrets of the One man modified Cryengine

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 11 June 2019 - 06:42 PM.

[Asym]

Lykaon, on 07 June 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

How are teams "toxic as all get out !" ?

Why do you get to define the purpose of quick play?

So let me get this straight...If players want to play in groups their choices are ...

A: don't or B: go play in the least developed portion of the game with no match maker to speak of with the smallest portion of the population (because of it's lack of support ) ensuring most of you time online will be waiting in a queue to play.

I would say that the very concept of a "safe space" is laughable in the context of a game where players choose to play in a PvP competitive environment.

There will be 24 players playing and only 12 will be on a winning side. It's a guarantee that half of the players will lose the vast majority of the time.

Confirmation bias aside what players should get is a matchmaker that creates a reasonably level playing field for as many of the 24 players in a match as is possible.

Blame is not a solution.

First off, teams over 4 become toxic because "like minds corroborate bad behaviors"... And, since this and many other games allow teams over 4 people, over time, you see in game extreme behaviors... It's not just MWO....... Take the Faction Play experience before the skill tree change: it was just an angry, hateful place where winning, degrading other players and intentionally seal clubbing was the norm. There were even threats of physical violence reported and experienced.... Entire teams, after the skill tree changes made thing worse left em masse..... No joke... Not only was it not any fun at all, those terrible personalities and antics got worse. To the point, the team I was on left this game as a team.... Only three or four drop in now P/T if that.

I am a customer. Because I have an opinion and a lot of years not only playing video games, but studying them, helping create them and, from time to time, lecture on why game "cultures" sometimes become "toxic"....

I'm not sure you are seeing the bigger picture: no game can survive if there isn't a place for new players to learn the game, establish themselves in the game itself and find, something in the game they like.... PvP isn't always a bad thing and QP is a good place for new players to explore what works for them. It's not supposed to be a highly competitive mode: that's what Solaris 7, Faction Play, Competitive play and the e-Sports side were for...........and, guess what, they failed !!!

Low population. MM can't work. There are either new players or vets......and, not many of them at certain times. Again, games aren't about winning or losing 100% of the time. Meritocracies become toxic and in the end fail, because a lot of people play "to have fun with their friends"; not, to memorize Lore, or discuss the made up physics; or, discuss the "game plans for this or that match".......they come to play a game and have some fun........ MWO isn't that too much anymore and most of us moved on full time to more fun environments and occasionally, strap a mech on and play in events.....

Why do I get to define the purpose of Quick Play: because I am smart enough to know the difference between what works and what doesn't..........and, that is age....and experience. You don't have to listen, that is your right but.......a lot of what I have said has come true.... You reap what you sow........and MWO, is a shell of what it was...

[Asym]

Feral Clown, on 07 June 2019 - 04:51 PM, said:

Wouldn't an effective PSR system that worked better to balance out the talent on both sides help mitigate that?

As well it is pretty toxic to continually be as anti team as you have been and generally the better players who have success are pretty happy outside of being saddled with angry people who are not doing well. Have you ever really considered your own toxic behaviour and anger?

Actually, a lot of modern games I have demo'd and I've written about before use a "Combat Effectiveness (CE)" engine. Everything is measured in this game and your ability to hit what you aim at; the quality of damage that aim produces and on what; the contribution of your damage to the overall win or loss; and, many other metrics make up what CE is......

The bad news is that CE is vicious to ego. We've had e-Sports level players play a CE demo and quit.....! "I'm better than this because......" No, you aren't really.... That nerd behind you actually is "x" more efficient than you are........ ouch !

Population is way too low for CE anyway. You'd need at least half a million on line hourly; otherwise, wait times would be so long no one would even want to play.

And, that is the crux of the issue: doing well.... What is that? How is that measured? Can you measure fun? Well, when the game was fun, our 52 player team never had to wait for a faction Play drop ! Of course, they all left the game and only but a few come back and dabble.... Were they having fun? I guess not, eh?!

I love this game or I would have uninstalled. I try to do what I can to foster discussions that could improve this game.... And, I'm not angry and what I am saying isn't at all toxic.... It's just an opposite opinion to yours......that's all.

Perspective comes with age I think....

[Koniving]

Darth Hotz, on 05 June 2019 - 12:41 AM, said:

I was seriously thinking about bringin a friend to this game but...how?

I am Tier 1 with +140 mechs and 200 Mio C-Bills.

I can not donate my buddy some money to get out of trial mechs and because he teams up with me, he meets lethal enemies right from scratch. Talk about motivation if you get cored as a trial newb within seconds...

This used to be a thing that would answer your question of how to bring them in, help them, etc..
Premade group of 4 or fewer players against (here 4 but later, 8) others.

Now what's going on here is this is a few matches in to bringing a new player from the new player thread into some matches. In fact, it was after a good number of matches that the next day he brings his friend in, whom then gets super excited. This would be her second match.

In this video match making had no skill base, but later on it'd combine the scores of the group into the median and put them in like that. (the opposing side, likewise, had their own premade group or groups of 2 to 4 players and the premade groups were pulled into the mix first with everyone else pulled in around that, so it isn't like it'd decide to go with a tier 4 median for the solos and suddenly pull in a tier 2 median premade.).

Premade encounters premade.


The point is... the game was once super friendly for being able to pull in friends to play. At the time it was a huge issue because the solos only had typing to communicate with. Now we have a command wheel. We have in game VOIP. It's no longer a reason to not have this. And getting players into the game would be so much easier with a little hand holding.

Also:
Something I've noticed is that their interest greatly waned as it became harder and harder to play together, and eventually he dropped off the face of the earth and she just doesn't play MWO anymore. And its not because of changes to balance or anything like that. Its because the game isnt' friendly to playing together unless you have a group of at least 4 to 5 and even then, there's no match making to be had meaning you're thrown to the wolves... and what happens when a seal is thrown to the wolves? Player retention suffers.

Edited by Koniving, 08 June 2019 - 05:00 AM.

[LordNothing]

i tried to get my cats to play but they just slept on the keyboard.

[Feral Clown]

Khobai, on 07 June 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

How? The player population isnt big enough.

So when you have a bunch of elite players on one team. Theyre gonna wait in queue forever for an equally skilled team of players to queue up? That makes no sense.

The only solution I can see is a matchmaker that, as a last resort, forcibly breaks up groups and puts them on opposite teams.

Being able to play with your friends should be secondary to having two balanced teams.



teams are toxic to the current state of the game though

people cant even get their friends to play because they get stomped so badly in group queue

allowing that crap is directly affecting the game's ability to retain new players.

My first comment to Asym was regarding matchmaker in quick play. So evaluating and rating people properly would help quick play a great deal. Doesn't even matter if you had to open the gates to all tiers as long as one side isn't all the tier fives.

Second, you saying teams are toxic in the current state is not a fact. It is just how you feel, and I have been playing group queue a bit lately with Reckless, and there are a number of teams having fun in there of various skill levels. I see lurm teams, and meta cancer eagle teams, and a various mix of good and bad, all seemingly having fun and dropping together.

Allowing friends to play together isn't crap. It's your attitude that's crap. You've been beating this drum for years now and it is just your opinion, because most of us (seemingly including PGI with the evidence inferred in their not banning teams in team mode) believe wholeheartedly that not allowing friends to play in teams would be far more detrimental and completely braindead thinking to not allow groups...in group queue. CW in which I am highly invested and have had a great deal of success (which you can't speak to cause you don't play it) is the same thing. There are teams like mine who are more successful than most, and then there are teams who despite not being great, still win more than they lose. Usually at the cost of pug teams, but at this point there is just no population to support any separate queues. Perhaps way back when, if they had properly made it so solo's could drop either in a solo only queue or fill in the group/unit queue instead of having to make solo units, it'd be a different story and there could have been a quick play type CW mode for individuals.

[Feral Clown]

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:33 AM, said:

Actually, a lot of modern games I have demo'd and I've written about before use a "Combat Effectiveness (CE)" engine. Everything is measured in this game and your ability to hit what you aim at; the quality of damage that aim produces and on what; the contribution of your damage to the overall win or loss; and, many other metrics make up what CE is......

The bad news is that CE is vicious to ego. We've had e-Sports level players play a CE demo and quit.....! "I'm better than this because......" No, you aren't really.... That nerd behind you actually is "x" more efficient than you are........ ouch !

Population is way too low for CE anyway. You'd need at least half a million on line hourly; otherwise, wait times would be so long no one would even want to play.

And, that is the crux of the issue: doing well.... What is that? How is that measured? Can you measure fun? Well, when the game was fun, our 52 player team never had to wait for a faction Play drop ! Of course, they all left the game and only but a few come back and dabble.... Were they having fun? I guess not, eh?!

I love this game or I would have uninstalled. I try to do what I can to foster discussions that could improve this game.... And, I'm not angry and what I am saying isn't at all toxic.... It's just an opposite opinion to yours......that's all.

Perspective comes with age I think....

The CE thing you are going on about is irrelevant.

Despite you not accepting or understanding, calling people who want to group up and play together as toxic behaviour, is toxic. Repeatedly blaming players for the downfall is toxic.

Why players leave and you seemingly thinking it's OK to just speak for these 52 people and say it's because good or successful team are at fault is toxic. You don't have to accept it and can decide it's just an opinion issue. It doesn't change the fact you are blaming individuals and not say the lack of matchmaker or properly split queues, because you are continually blaming and putting on the shoulders of people and not mechanics or otherwise. That kind of repeated and wanton, continual attacks against people is toxic.

There might have been a number of things PGI could have done to address the experience for all levels of players, but instead they chose a free-for-all model that was very unforgiving. Comp, for instance have divisions, that break up teams to face teams as best they could in regards to skill level. Take that last part in and digest it for a second, because consider that the care and consideration for the players experience and fun is coming from a lot of the players...people that you are continually are calling toxic over and over again for years and years now and not PGI.

And as far as age giving you some sort of perspective, I see only the commonly associated trait of stubbornness coming out of you repeatedly blaming people that play the game for all of your woes. You have beat this drum and hung onto your narrative with nothing to back you and insisting this is the case, while all along blaming people with no control over the situation as the bad guys. It's time you really take a step back and look who is to blame, because it isn't BCMC/Evil, that ruined CW and EmP hasn't ruined group queue. The blame doesn't rest on these people's shoulders.

[Lykaon]

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

First off, teams over 4 become toxic because "like minds corroborate bad behaviors"... And, since this and many other games allow teams over 4 people, over time, you see in game extreme behaviors... It's not just MWO....... Take the Faction Play experience before the skill tree change: it was just an angry, hateful place where winning, degrading other players and intentionally seal clubbing was the norm. There were even threats of physical violence reported and experienced.... Entire teams, after the skill tree changes made thing worse left em masse..... No joke... Not only was it not any fun at all, those terrible personalities and antics got worse. To the point, the team I was on left this game as a team.... Only three or four drop in now P/T if that.

I am a customer. Because I have an opinion and a lot of years not only playing video games, but studying them, helping create them and, from time to time, lecture on why game "cultures" sometimes become "toxic"....

I'm not sure you are seeing the bigger picture: no game can survive if there isn't a place for new players to learn the game, establish themselves in the game itself and find, something in the game they like.... PvP isn't always a bad thing and QP is a good place for new players to explore what works for them. It's not supposed to be a highly competitive mode: that's what Solaris 7, Faction Play, Competitive play and the e-Sports side were for...........and, guess what, they failed !!!

Low population. MM can't work. There are either new players or vets......and, not many of them at certain times. Again, games aren't about winning or losing 100% of the time. Meritocracies become toxic and in the end fail, because a lot of people play "to have fun with their friends"; not, to memorize Lore, or discuss the made up physics; or, discuss the "game plans for this or that match".......they come to play a game and have some fun........ MWO isn't that too much anymore and most of us moved on full time to more fun environments and occasionally, strap a mech on and play in events.....

Why do I get to define the purpose of Quick Play: because I am smart enough to know the difference between what works and what doesn't..........and, that is age....and experience. You don't have to listen, that is your right but.......a lot of what I have said has come true.... You reap what you sow........and MWO, is a shell of what it was...

First off let's address your first counter point "like minds corroborate bad behaviors" . Don't you mean like minds corroborate similar behaviors? I think we would have to agree that people of similar behaviors when grouped together would not spawn radically opposed behaviors to their individual behavioral slants.

A selection of charitable individuals when formed into a cohesive group would not suddenly begin a looting and pillaging spree would they? It is far more likely a charitable organization would evolve wouldn't you think?

So what you are trying to sell as an absolute is the conditions that would exist on the very outliers of a sampling of groups of people. Most groups of people would exhibit behaviors close to average with the far outliers exhibiting concentrations of extreme behaviors.

I can understand your basis though things like the mob mentality exist however within the context of a handful of people playing a game? I doubt 4 people joining a group would suddenly spawn 4 hateful reprobates degrading and abusing everyone around them simply on the basis of 4= evil.

Granted my actual area of expertise is canine behavior and not primates.My observation from actually being a human seem to play out my hypotheses though.

Your observations on faction play are very different from mine. I used to play as a solo on the regular and would experience toxic behavior in game about as frequently as everywhere else, sadly indicating that toxic behavior is a reliably measured metric. I would cite conformation bias as a likely source for our different experiences.

What I saw was a poorly balanced game mechanic that would frequently cause players to become frustrated.But genuine actual toxic behavior?Genuine malice few and far between.

Was it "seal clubbing" or was it a poorly designed game mechanic to blame? Should the superior team throw the match? play worse? quit?

We just played the game PGI supplied.

What value is a gifted victory? For that matter what value is a lop sided loss provided through a terrible match maker? Neither hold any value in my eyes and it's largely this failing in game design that triggered my lack of interest in faction warfare.

I am seeing a bigger picture perhaps larger in scope than you may realize.

I absolutely agree that there needs to be a means for new players to find their footing and that should be provided through several avenues. Sadly MWo either launched with minimal to no support or to this day has failed to produce needed support mechanisms.

The big picture is PGI messed up in a big way when they opted to preserve the quality of solo players game play and excluded players in groups and player units. There was next to no attempts to reconcile the two camps,to preserve a unity in the community. We got PGI pandering to conformation bias and Units shipped off to slowly bleed to death in the least supported portions of the game (group queue,faction play,solaris)

There was a moment in time where PGI could have shaped the game development to be inclusive but instead pandered to the very players who were less likely to form a community tie within the game.

Once they isolated Units from new solo players,the very source of new unit members (and a strong source for new player support) they figuratively slit the wrists of the very source of a persistent player community and a high population.

Who is more likely to move on to another game?

a solo player who casually messes around or a player who has joined a unit?

Why do other MMO games have guilds? They have them to retain players and enrich player experiences within their game.

MWo has made player units about as unreachable as possible for solo players without outright abolishing the concept.

Are you smart enough to see where the wrong turn occurred? Do you see what didn't work for PGI? Do you see how we collectively ended up here on a sinking ship?

[FRAGTAST1C]

I think two things would've fixed this game a long time ago...

1. A working MM that does its job properly

2. Ability to get games as a group instead of creating buckets and more buckets to create teams out of

Making Instant Action less important than FW, although very important, is secondary. Instead, what we have now is a bad MM, can't get to play this game with friends and Instant Action as the main mode.

[Wil McCullough]

SeventhSL, on 04 June 2019 - 05:50 PM, said:

No! The community seal clubbed the player base to death and PGI let it happen. Attitudes haven’t changed.

All things like advertising does is bring in seals to club to death and seals aren’t an endless resource.

What's this got to do with the community? It's the game's fault for matching you up against way better players than yourself. They didn't pick you to club. Also, would you rather lose against a good team playing well? Or a good team obviously handicapping themselves and still beating you?

Come on man. Lay the blame at the correct set of feet.

[Wil McCullough]

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

First off, teams over 4 become toxic because "like minds corroborate bad behaviors"... And, since this and many other games allow teams over 4 people, over time, you see in game extreme behaviors... It's not just MWO....... Take the Faction Play experience before the skill tree change: it was just an angry, hateful place where winning, degrading other players and intentionally seal clubbing was the norm. There were even threats of physical violence reported and experienced.... Entire teams, after the skill tree changes made thing worse left em masse..... No joke... Not only was it not any fun at all, those terrible personalities and antics got worse. To the point, the team I was on left this game as a team.... Only three or four drop in now P/T if that.

I am a customer. Because I have an opinion and a lot of years not only playing video games, but studying them, helping create them and, from time to time, lecture on why game "cultures" sometimes become "toxic"....

I'm not sure you are seeing the bigger picture: no game can survive if there isn't a place for new players to learn the game, establish themselves in the game itself and find, something in the game they like.... PvP isn't always a bad thing and QP is a good place for new players to explore what works for them. It's not supposed to be a highly competitive mode: that's what Solaris 7, Faction Play, Competitive play and the e-Sports side were for...........and, guess what, they failed !!!

Low population. MM can't work. There are either new players or vets......and, not many of them at certain times. Again, games aren't about winning or losing 100% of the time. Meritocracies become toxic and in the end fail, because a lot of people play "to have fun with their friends"; not, to memorize Lore, or discuss the made up physics; or, discuss the "game plans for this or that match".......they come to play a game and have some fun........ MWO isn't that too much anymore and most of us moved on full time to more fun environments and occasionally, strap a mech on and play in events.....

Why do I get to define the purpose of Quick Play: because I am smart enough to know the difference between what works and what doesn't..........and, that is age....and experience. You don't have to listen, that is your right but.......a lot of what I have said has come true.... You reap what you sow........and MWO, is a shell of what it was...

What is this nonsense.

You want to win. So do the other team. They're just better at winning than.you are. How.is that toxic? The only toxicity here is that you feel entitled to wins over better teams. So entitled in fact, that you expect them to throw games for you. And if they don't throw games to you, they're being jerks.

I don't even.

[Feral Clown]

Lykaon, on 09 June 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

First off let's address your first counter point "like minds corroborate bad behaviors" . Don't you mean like minds corroborate similar behaviors? I think we would have to agree that people of similar behaviors when grouped together would not spawn radically opposed behaviors to their individual behavioral slants.

A selection of charitable individuals when formed into a cohesive group would not suddenly begin a looting and pillaging spree would they? It is far more likely a charitable organization would evolve wouldn't you think?

....(shortened for space)

I appreciate this perspective. My anecdotal experience while playing for BCMC is that the better players, who are generally having fun doing well, have had an overall positive affect on myself and others while we were learning and getting better. Of coarse there are outliers, but most teams don't want an angry dude on comms raging all the time no matter how good they are, and most teams I am familiar with want to have a positive reputation in the community. There's a definite reason we frown on people talking politics or religion in channel as well. Simply it is more enjoyable to be around happy people, having a good time that are pleasant and cordial, while playing a game I imagine most people are playing to enjoy themselves and have fun.

[Horseman]

Wil McCullough, on 10 June 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

What is this nonsense.
You want to win. So do the other team. They're just better at winning than.you are. How.is that toxic? The only toxicity here is that you feel entitled to wins over better teams. So entitled in fact, that you expect them to throw games for you. And if they don't throw games to you, they're being jerks.
I don't even.

It's the usual toxic rant of a salty low-rank player who chronically blames everyone but himself for his own low performance.

Edited by Horseman, 11 June 2019 - 07:38 AM.

[Lykaon]

Wil McCullough, on 10 June 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

What is this nonsense.

You want to win. So do the other team. They're just better at winning than.you are. How.is that toxic? The only toxicity here is that you feel entitled to wins over better teams. So entitled in fact, that you expect them to throw games for you. And if they don't throw games to you, they're being jerks.

I don't even.

I didn't get that vibe though.

What I got was ...

Groups are inherently toxic and that grouped people morph into arsehoops for "reasons" (I strongly disagree)

New players should have "safe space" to learn the game. ( I agree that new players MUST be afforded breathing room to learn a game before they can be expected to compete within the game.)

They have an opinion that quick play can not be shared because quick play is the "safe space" and if you want to group do it elsewhere like faction/group queue/solaris (I feel there was a disconnect in understanding that solo qucik play has support mechanisms to improve match quality while group queue does not.therefore grouped player by vertue of being socially inclined do not deserve the full content of the game because a "safe space" is worth more than the content quality supplied to grouped players)

Also a healthy dose of logical fallacy in the form of

Argument from authority ...

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

I am a customer. Because I have an opinion and a lot of years not only playing video games, but studying them, helping create them and, from time to time, lecture on why game "cultures" sometimes become "toxic"...

Slippery slope...

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

First off, teams over 4 become toxic because "like minds corroborate bad behaviors"... And, since this and many other games allow teams over 4 people, over time, you see in game extreme behaviors... It's not just MWO....... Take the Faction Play experience before the skill tree change: it was just an angry, hateful place where winning, degrading other players and intentionally seal clubbing was the norm. There were even threats of physical violence reported and experienced.... Entire teams, after the skill tree changes made thing worse left em masse..... No joke... Not only was it not any fun at all, those terrible personalities and antics got worse. To the point, the team I was on left this game as a team.... Only three or four drop in now P/T if that.

Strawman...

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

I'm not sure you are seeing the bigger picture: no game can survive if there isn't a place for new players to learn the game, establish themselves in the game itself and find, something in the game they like....

Since I never advocated that there shouldn't be a place for new players to learn and enjoy the game this part seemed ...kinda odd to me.

This portion could have been more of a False Dichotomy argument though if the opposing view point is groups can not be with solos because doing so removes a "safe space" .

Well it's a toss up Strawman ( shooting down my unstated desire to remove the "safe space") or False Dichotomy (if groups and solos share a queue there can not be a "safe space")

[Khobai]

Feral Clown, on 08 June 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Second, you saying teams are toxic in the current state is not a fact

it absolutely is a fact. countless new players have quit the game because of the toxic state of group queue. many people here have recounted stories about not being able to get friends to keep playing the game. that has been my experience as well.

does that mean all teams are toxic? no of course not. but there is enough toxicity among groups that the overall environment of group queue has become toxic.

its not friendly to new/casual players at all or conducive to retaining new/casual players with the ultimate goal of converting them to paid players. The current state of group queue is simply not helping the game.

to that end the only real fix is to implement a working matchmaker. and since that would create more buckets you also have to allow solo players in group queue to help mitigate the problem of having more buckets.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2019 - 11:09 AM.

[Lykaon]

Asym, on 08 June 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

Meritocracies become toxic and in the end fail, because a lot of people play "to have fun with their friends"; not, to memorize Lore, or discuss the made up physics; or, discuss the "game plans for this or that match".......they come to play a game and have some fun........ .

Just another side question.

What if anything is this statement suppose to support?

You reference a meritocracy and then go on a tangent that has little to no relation to meritocracy.

A Meritocracy is a political system in which economic goods and/or political power are vested in the individual people on the basis of talent,effort and achievement,rather than factors such as heredity or wealth.Advancement in such a system is based on performance,as measured through examination or demonstrated achievement. (source Wikipedia)

So a meritocracy as it relates to MWo would be a system where players performances grants rewards increasing in value with higher achievement or effort.

Like how a player that consistently performs well earns a higher match score and as a result more XP and C-bills (example of skill = reward level) Or a player that dedicates time to completing events to earn awards (example of effort = reward level)

For that mater the very concept of PvP is more skill = more reward in the shape of more wins than losses. and skill can be achieved via more effort so the core mechanics of MWo are in fact leaning towards a meritocracy where an individual player's level of reward scales with effort and ability.

I believe in the concept of equal opportunity and find the concept of equality of outcome a worthless concept that removes agency and drive to improve or advance ones self.

Equality of opportunity in context of MWo is everyone has the same basic format of "rules" that provide a genuine attempt to create a fair and balanced game play experience for everyone (or at least as many as is possible) so they may earn reward (XP/C-bills/wins/higher tier placement,etc) on a level playing field as they progress.

Equality of outcome in MWo would be no matter what you do,play well or run off and suicide we all get equal rewards.Objectives and skill of play become meaningless because there is no motivations to excel and advance since if you suck you get equal value of reward as true effort does. that's boring and well will kill a game quick.

[Khobai]

theres no motivation to excel and advance in this game anyway. it has no long-term progression or high level goals for players to work towards. thats what faction play was supposed to be and failed at miserably.