9 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Patchnotes with small ATM changes came up and people argue about the uselessness of the extended range bracket again...

So, what do you think in general about the 3-stage ATM damage curve?

Would you keep ATMs as is, or do you prefere a linear damage curve similar to energy/ballistic weapons from 100% to 0% ?
Maybe you would like to have long linear transition phases to move the "medium" range further back and make the "long range" bracket smaller in a hybrid way?

1. Current ATM range and dmg/missile stats:
min range 0-120m - 0dmg
short range 120 - 270m, 3dmg
medium range 270 - 550m - 2dmg
long range 550 - 1100m - 1dmg

2. Linear ATM damage curve with 0dmg at max:
min range 0-120m - 0dmg
short range 120m - 3dmg
max range 1100m - 0dmg
linear rampdown:
>75% dmg (2.25) at 1/4th distance 365m
>50% dmg (1.5) at half distance 610m
>25% dmg (0.75) at 3/4th distance 855m
>0 dmg at max distance 1100m

3. Linear ATM damage curve with 1dmg at max:
min range 0-120m - 0dmg
short range 120m - 3dmg
max range 1100m - 1dmg
linear rampdown:
>86% dmg (2.5) at 1/4th distance 365m
>66% dmg (2) at half distance 610m
>50% dmg (1.5) at 3/4th distance 855m
>33% dmg (1) at max distance 1100m

4. Hybrid with brackets and linear transitions:
>ramp-up min-short 0m - 180m 0>3dmg over 90m
short range 180 - 270m, 3dmg for 90m
>rampdown short-med 270 - 420 linear 3>2dmg over 180m
medium range 450 - 630m - 2dmg for 180m
>rampdown med-long 630 - 810m linear 2>1dmg over 270m
long range 900 - 1170m - 1dmg for for 270m
- note: i've added ramp-up from 0-90m and used multiples of 90m for the brackets/ramps.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

ATMs in MWO are designed to be VERY high damage weapon IF you zone yourself right. Slight mistake murder your damage and that's how we like it.

[Nightbird]

Well, given PGI want to nerf ATMs, all your buff numbers are probably no bueno

Edited by Nightbird, 16 June 2019 - 11:05 AM.

[Khobai]

Strength Damage Cliff Racer, on 16 June 2019 - 11:02 AM, said:

ATMs in MWO are designed to be VERY high damage weapon IF you zone yourself right. Slight mistake murder your damage and that's how we like it.

The problem is thats not what ATMs are supposed to be. Theyre not supposed to be a niche weapon thats only good in a narrow range band and next to useless outside that range band.

ATMs are supposed to be a highly versatile weapon thats viable at all ranges (but not better than more specialized weapons like SRMs/LRMs). And that includes being able to do damage under 120m.

PGI made them the exact opposite of what theyre supposed to be.

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2019 - 12:35 PM.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Khobai, on 16 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

The problem is thats not what ATMs are supposed to be. Theyre not supposed to be a niche weapon thats only good in a narrow range band and next to useless outside that range band.

ATMs are supposed to be a highly versatile weapon thats viable at all ranges (but not better than more specialized weapons like SRMs/LRMs). And that includes being able to do damage under 120m.

PGI made them the exact opposite of what theyre supposed to be.

Yes. But you do well to understand that "highly versatile" means "overpowered" due to the rest of mechanics, like semi-random maps and inability to control drop locations. Out of "high skill high reward" and "just better option" I'll prefer the former, even if it breaks some fundamentals of BT universe.
All in all, our SRMs don't exactly try to home on targets.

[FupDup]

Strength Damage Cliff Racer, on 16 June 2019 - 01:11 PM, said:

All in all, our SRMs don't exactly try to home on targets.

That comparison isn't quite the same because the role of SRMs as a close-range weapon is still retained even without the tracking ability.

[The6thMessenger]

The Damage is the problem, and it won't be touched by the curve and if anything worsens it by a 3 to 0 damage

Strength Damage Cliff Racer, on 16 June 2019 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yes. But you do well to understand that "highly versatile" means "overpowered" due to the rest of mechanics, like semi-random maps and inability to control drop locations. Out of "high skill high reward" and "just better option" I'll prefer the former, even if it breaks some fundamentals of BT universe.
All in all, our SRMs don't exactly try to home on targets.

SRMs aren't comparable to ATMs, best use SSRMs, and they are kind of more overpowered as a comparison, lol.

Wouldn't be overpowered if it was done properly, like Ammo Switching. If you put all of the functionality together, that is exactly what is overpowered, and that is what we would get if the minimum-range is removed while retaining the 3-damage range -- and that is what we have right now, because PGI is dumb enough to implement ATMs without a working Ammo Switching.

If we're to do this as is, we have to remove the minimum range, there should be a reduction of close range damage, e.g. to 2.4/2.0/1.6 damage curve, which answers the reliability issue while also the long-range efficiency issue. But that's just a piss-poor design.

Imagine if you have ammo switching, then you could limit HE ammo down to 60, while STD ammo at 90, and ER Ammo at 180 -- which means that using ATM ammos at their different range-brackets wouldn't be wasting ammo. You could also increase or decrease heat depending on missile so the STD wouldn't be overshadowed in every aspect versus LRMs. You could also change CDs, which means the lower-damage can make up for lost DPS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 June 2019 - 02:46 PM.

[Khobai]

Strength Damage Cliff Racer, on 16 June 2019 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yes. But you do well to understand that "highly versatile" means "overpowered" due to the rest of mechanics, like semi-random maps and inability to control drop locations. Out of "high skill high reward" and "just better option" I'll prefer the former, even if it breaks some fundamentals of BT universe.
All in all, our SRMs don't exactly try to home on targets.

no it doesnt lol

highly versatile means jack-of-all-trades which is entirely different from being a specialized weapon

ATMs should be viable at all ranges. But they should not be better than more specialized weapons like SRMs or LRMs at short or long range respectively.

So yeah it would be 100% fine for ATMs to not have a zero damage deadzone as long as theyre not doing more damage than SRMs/SSRMs. And ATMs definitely shouldnt have a zero damage deadzone since it directly contradicts the purpose of the weapon which is to be viable at all ranges.

It also doesnt make any sense whatsoever that ATMs have a longer max range than LRMs. lmao.

ATMs are still a super mixed up weapon thanks to PGI...

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2019 - 03:43 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 16 June 2019 - 03:36 PM, said:

It also doesnt make any sense whatsoever that ATMs have a longer max range than LRMs. lmao.

He said, saying without any proof.

And then there's also the part that, either aren't exactly an optimal use of the weapons, which are kinda pointless.

"But it's Long-Range Missile, it's in the name!"

So does "Democratic" on Democratic People's Republic of Korea aka North Korea.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the 2.4/2.0/1.6 damage without minimum-range -- since PGI is too incompetent to implement proper ammo switching. But if you're going to appeal to "Name and Lore", guess what ATM ER ammo goes out to 18-27 hexes, the LRM only goes out to 15-21. Guess what, there's actually an E-LRMs, and that was supposed to be used for long-range.

Oh wait, are you going to appeal to "practicality" now, as in making a niche? Well you got a completely inefficient use of ATMs at ER-Ranges that the ONLY thing it has going against LRMs is that it has 250m longer max range. And the LRMs could go over obstacles and have better heat-efficiency and sustained-DPS as a result at ranges beyond 270m -- the LRMs are actually and ironically more versatile than ATMs at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of the current scheme, but your reasons are just ********.

[Reno Blade]

Considering Option3 (linear drop from 3 to 1 dmg) or option 4 (long staged hybrid), the med-long range damage could be more prominent to make single missile not waste of ammo.

The more I think of the balance of hard-to-use vs usefull-per-ammo-at-most-scenarios, the more I tend to lean towards Option3 with a simple linear dmg drop.
Because that means the "best" range is only 1 meter after the deadzone, and anything else is gradually lower, so the "average" can be better balanced around the 2.5 - 2 dmg / missile.