23 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

I saw something the other day about Clan officers being selected by trial by combat. How can that possibly be an effective way of selecting an officer? He's good at killing one person. Therefore he has all the skills needed to be an officer? Or are they trained after they're selected to be proper officers?

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm not sure how it works exactly. I do know that rank is obtained through trials, but as of exact strategy and leadership training, IDK.

I am under the impression that maybe all Clan warriors receive the same training at the start, and maybe that covers command and strategy training, and then they let the trials weed the less capable out. Then just promote through trials from there.

All I do know is, it is probably still a better system than how Steiner promotes their officers . "Do you know someone?...Good. Are they influential?...Yes?...Well then...Welcome aboard General!"

[Zacharias McLeod]

Trial of Position.

http://www.sarna.net...ial_of_Position

If you win you get your rank. Nearly the only way to rise to a new rank.

There is no officer trainig. You know what to do or someone else starts a trial of position against you.

"A rarer case of this is that if a commander has endangered their unit unnecessarily through incompetence or otherwise that they are severely unfit for duty, a subordinate can challenge the commander to a Trial of Position. "

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 23 July 2019 - 04:23 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

So if you are a True Birth warrior looking to climb the ranks, you better have your nose in a copy of Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War'.

[MechaBattler]

So if they're incompetent as far as leadership goes. So long as they can beat anyone that challenges them, they can stay in command? Good leadership isn't always synonymous with individual fighting ability. So that seems like kinda of a mix bag. But I do suppose it's better than nepotism as MeiSooHaityu said. Hell I heard that the inner sphere's militaries are organized around 1800s regimental command. So I guess it's just kinda lousy all around. lol.

[Rorik Thrumsalr]

@MechaBattler
It has indeed bit them in the butt from time to time. There are a number of Khans who were not particularly skilled in anything other than individual combat. I would daresay that this was the exception rather than the rule however, as the "dog eat dog" nature of clan politics means that leadership incompetence will eventually end with the poor leader failing a trial (even the best of warriors will eventually fall in combat). I would also imagine that the constant trials and inter clan fighting would give early tactical and strategic exposure to most warriors, leaving them rather experienced compared to the average IS MechWarrior.

[Zacharias McLeod]

Rorik Thrumsalr, on 23 July 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

I would also imagine that the constant trials and inter clan fighting would give early tactical and strategic exposure to most warriors, leaving them rather experienced compared to the average IS MechWarrior.

Not realy. One of the big advantages the IS has comapared to the Clans are the better tactical and strategical skills of the IS Warriors.

But the Clans have better figthing skills and the better Tech.

Nearly all IS victorys agains the Clans are the result of better tactical skill.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 23 July 2019 - 11:33 AM.

[MechaBattler]

And the IS would engage in tactics and strategies the Clans would find distasteful.

[Zacharias McLeod]

MechaBattler, on 23 July 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

And the IS would engage in tactics and strategies the Clans would find distasteful.

A clan warriors motto is: live short and die with honor. They count as old if they are 30+. At this age a IS warrior is only at the begining of a (hopefully) long live. Personal hornor is often higher than the great goal for a clan warrior so they lose because they are to stubborn to fight for personal honor instead of the big win.

They fight with no real tactic. Attack them and win. If a warrior die in battle it is ok. IS warriors don´t want to die only for honor. They die for the big goal. Otherwise they try to retreat from a fight.

[Steel Raven]

The Clans ways are self destructive to a point and has proven to be so on multiple occasions from the Refusal War to the Wars of Reaving.

The Clans are based in part on the Mongol Empirel but also mirror the Spartans in many aspects (if a Spartan lived to a old age, he must be a coward for not dying in glorious combat)

In fiction, both The Blood of Kerensky and the Jade Phoenix stories are meant to be a intro into the Clans. Exodus Road highlights the Clans failings or more importantly, failings of the Crusader beliefs that the Clan way is the only way and personal 'honor matters above all else.

Edit: sorry, on my phone. Auto correct is killing me

After though, should also keep in mind the Clans are a dark reflection of the Inner Sphere. While the Clans ways can seem, well, insane to any outsider (Phalen Kell's first reaction to trail by combat/natural selection) the Inner Sphere is a Neo-Feudal Society in which allot of commands have been passed down through nepotism alone. Many tragedies in the IS start with a unqualified heir making terrible decisions that end up getting people killed. From Richard Cameron trust in Stefan Amaris to Yvonne Stiener Davion surrendering New Avalon to her sister, Katherine.

So yeah, the Clans can be self defeating but the IS has likewise yet to stop hitting itself over the head with a brick.

Edited by Steel Raven, 24 July 2019 - 09:28 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Seems like you're rolling the dice in general. But I feel like with nepotism it depends on what rules you're following. If they're going by 1st born son rules, then yeah, you're stuck with them. But if neither gender or order of birth matters. Then it's in the noble family's best interest to choose the best roles for each heir. The best one to run the finances and estate. Best one to command whatever military assets they control. And who best to marry off. You're still limiting the scope of who you choose from. But at least there's a choice being made by someone more experienced.

With the Clans it seems like you're really rolling the dice on the best single combat fighter being a good officer. You'd think their would be like a sub class that caters exclusively to being a tactician. So instead of trial by combat. Trial by simulated tactics? I bet if someone proposed that, they'd be laughed right out of the room.

[Steel Raven]

Clan Culture is not meant to be logical, it's meant to be somewhat alien (yet familiar) and a cautionary tale for war hawks.

They loose to the Inner Sphere over and over again because they are not logical. In spite their superior tech and combat training, they get their asses handed to them because their leader is whoever hits the hardest.

Meanwhile the Inner Sphere Great Houses rather light themselves on fire than work togeather, welcome to the Battletech Universe!

[MechaBattler]

Honestly after reading up on different Clans on Sarna. A lot of them meet a bad end. I feel bad for the Blood Spirits and the Nova Cats. The Wars of Reaving sound like the people writing it didn't want to deal with a second clan invasion. so instead decided to just gut them and make them stay home with their head in the sand. No wonder people hate Dark Age.

Edited by MechaBattler, 25 July 2019 - 02:21 PM.

[Jonathan8883]

Most of Clan society falls apart if you squint at it.

[Steel Raven]

People didn't like the Dark Age because WK made a time jump, skipped all the details about the WoB war on the IS and Nerfed all the factions in a attempt to make the BTU like the 3rd SW again. CGL fix allot of it, allot of the older factions now have more teeth, including Clan Wolf.

It honestly sounds like you just had different expectations for the Clan who have always been written as the barbarians at the gate.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 23 July 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

So if they're incompetent as far as leadership goes. So long as they can beat anyone that challenges them, they can stay in command? Good leadership isn't always synonymous with individual fighting ability. So that seems like kinda of a mix bag. But I do suppose it's better than nepotism as MeiSooHaityu said. Hell I heard that the inner sphere's militaries are organized around 1800s regimental command. So I guess it's just kinda lousy all around. lol.

One way to look at it...



The Clans... and the Klingons of Star Trek... make for an interesting conundrum, as both of them started developing similar traits in literally the same years so I'm not sure if BT's Clans inspired Star Trek's Next Generation Klingons or if Star Trek Next Generation's Klingons inspired Battletech's Clans. Whichever way it went.. by DS9's time, Battletech's Clans and Star Trek's Klingons are virtually identical in a number of things.

Given that the DS9 lore for taking command and rank comes much later, I'd say BT inspired Star Trek. But Riker did something similar on a Klingon vessel and I'm not sure when that episode aired.

Anyway, the premise is basically the same as the Gowron scene here. Just more formal and organized. Trial of positions aren't called by the person looking to be promoted but by the Khan or one of the higher ranking officials. Anyone whom does not have faith in that person's right to claim that rank will be at the Trial of Position. These are often those with personal grudges or those that believe the person to be incompetent, inferior, or otherwise seeking that position themselves.

In the Gowron scene, Worf thinks Gowron is corrupt, incompetent, and is deliberately throwing away Klingon lives to shame Martok's name. Such pettiness could very well lead the empire to ruin.

For the Clans, someone like Mathias is a megalomaniac and a fool that is so impossibly arrogant that "fossils" have no wisdom to offer for he is part of a new generation (okay Malik [Enterprise 'Borderlands']). If he was due to get a promotion for a success, particularly if that success came at a cost or squandered resources or wasn't even his to claim, I'd be opposing him in that trial of position.

When there is no one left to oppose you, you are promoted. Contrary to the games, though, its usually much fewer people opposing you (unless you really don't deserve it and everyone has it out for you) but those fights are usually much more evenly matched.

Then again, to even become a Mechwarrior.. I remember something about a 200 person battle royale in which each person only has a knife as a childhood exercise. Want to be in the warrior caste? Survive.
Those whom survive will better the Clans with their skill.
Those whom die are no longer in the gene pool.

Admittedly, Gowron's case has a better fit in the BT Clan mentality.

Trial of Grievance. Something similar, minus the circle of equals, is also in another short story image I have somewhere in which a female Clansman kept getting assigned patrols in an area that has an unpleasant odor, something she did without question until its frequency kept increasing and the pointless nature of these became clear. She confronted her superior, whom was sending her on these so that she could smell like her choice in men. (She was seeing a freebirth). Her Commander, a Trueborn, was disgusted by her and sought to use these missions to humiliate her. They scuffled and after a tussle she broke his arm and locked him in a choke hold. He no longer gave her any problems. (And it ends there, but very easily a formal trial of grievance probably could have been done to take command. I'm not completely certain if there's a more proper one for that specific task to quickly take over. Most reserve their spite for a trial of position.).

--------

Interesting.
So I just looked this up.
The proper term for taking your commanding officer's rank is a trial of position. For a subordinate to initiate a trial, concrete evidence of incompetence must be presented.

Now, contrary to everything learned from the Mechwarrior games...which most of what I have up above is from primarily MW2 and MW4 and the occasional captioned image.
But now that I've looked it up..

There's one initial trial of position to become a mechwarrior. Face off against up to 8 opponents in free for all combat, live fire. Some Clans like Jade Falcons require getting past a cadre of training freebirths in order to get to your mech. Each kill gets a rank. Its possible for one Clansman to get 7 kills, but the highest ever claimed was four for the rank of Star Colonel. If one person gets three kills, a melee must be initiated or the person has to relinquish the claim of one kill.

Apparently, "in early Clan history", a trial of position was held with a rank appropriate opponent once a year to recertify that the person is qualified.

Furthermore promotions are usually given without a trial. Though a trial is held when a warrior's readiness for a promotion is in question. This is the kind shown in the Mechwarrior games, especially Mechwarrior 4.

Evidently, a LOT of people didn't think this guy was ready for a promotion.
The trial of position in which a promotion is contested is supposedly done in one on one combat.. though MW2 often had you fight 4 at a time if I remember correctly.

For more reading.
http://www.sarna.net...ial_of_Position

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2019 - 04:17 AM.

[Koniving]

Side note, MW2 had you fight stars... So 5 at a time.

Edit: Systematically powered up (so they would approach one at a time but it was easy to accidentally hit another which would then activate that one.) You had to defeat the entire star for one rank, though, and at minimum defeat the first star. That is unlike the academy's trial of position in lore in which each kill was a rank.

Another side note: Only the mech need to be 'killed', not the pilot. Though pilots did die during the academy's trial of position. A pilot that failed to achieve the kill would not become a mechwarrior. (Exactly what happens is unclear but likely depends on the Clan). Only one would still have a functioning mech at the end of a trial unless something unusual happened.

And a final side note because for some reason I was thinking about it...
The situation of Mechwarrior 2's intro would never happen unless Bravo Cadet (bravo is not a Clan term for that matter) was in the middle of a training exercise when attacked and even then, unannounced surprise attacks are very uncharacteristic of the Clans. "Bandits" suggests they could be marauders, but given that the Timber Wolf is introduced much later than the Summoner and long after the second exodus, it is doubtful that these are marauders. Their lack of retreating also suggests they are not freebirth, even if their skills are questionable.




A cadet would never be sent on the field let alone given a Timber Wolf.
The general distress signal from HQ reporting that mechs are down at Nav Gamma does imply an ongoing battle, so there's a possibility of an assault which might explain the unusual loadout of of Alpha Assault with twin ER PPCS and twin AC/2s used in tabletop to plot out the combat scene, but... for that situation to have happened this is either an all out war (very unlikely) or during a Batchall, one side had insulted or lied to the other side in which case honor demands an absolute invasion of all the offended side with complete disregard for fairness, honor, etc.

(Another random thought: Alpha Assault is a freebirth, or an Inner Sphere pilot in a Clan mech. "I'm on my way bearing 025." ..."I'm".. Clan mentality has such a profound reverence for the English language that they dare not utter contractions and compared to the IS, would speak it properly and profoundly with all the syllables enunciated.)

Edited by Koniving, 05 August 2019 - 11:35 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Live fire trials with Clan mechs. Sounds expensive.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MechaBattler, on 07 August 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

Live fire trials with Clan mechs. Sounds expensive.

The cost of doing business...

As the Clan Trainer in MW2 said...

"This is a call to trial. You are to engage in a Trial of Position for the rank of MechWarrior...You are to engage a MechWarrior in the field. If you are victorious, so be it. The clan will be better for having a new, competent MechWarrior. If you are not, the death of the incompetent is the death of a feeble progeny and a testament to our glorious method."

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 08 August 2019 - 02:22 AM.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 07 August 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

Live fire trials with Clan mechs. Sounds expensive.

A few things to remember.
The warrior caste (in general) is not paid. Like medieval executioners, they are allowed to take what they want. The stigma/fear of what will happen if they don't get what they want is plenty of reason to do so, even though Clans have their own system of money. In fact, listen to "Today I found out" and their video on the job/life of an executioner. Now you know more about the Clan warrior, but add also respect in addition to fear of being on the wrong end of the executioner's blade.

The warrior caste comes first. But, it frequently thins itself out so that only the strong survive.
Supplies are limited, machines are reused, and the methodical way that the Clans do combat is actually surprisingly cost effective.
Although Clan weapons are generally longer ranged like ER lasers, even their other lasers have a longer range. This isn't just a technological improvement. Clan warriors are generally more accurate, more efficient, possess faster reflexes, predict better, etc. As such when forced to use inferior equipment, they still perform better in organized, calculated combat.

The emphasis is on that last bit. Like Klingon assassins, Clan combat edict dictates that prior to combat the attacker must make his presence known and what he plans to use. The defender must state what they plan to put into the field. The two sides then meet where they agree, and the exercise begins when it is stated.
This...was actually for a time (according to dropships and jumpships or mechwarrior 1st edition, not sure which) how the IS did things as humanity was building up from the Terran Hegemony to the Star League era (prior to the amaris coup). Combat was highly organized, methodical.. The similarities could even be misconstrued as the inspiration for the state of the world of MGS4...

The system of laws governing war (which contrary to many arguments about why LRMs have 180mm min range being because of it) was discarded the instant the Star League abandoned the IS (eventually going on to become the Clans).

As Nicholas Kerensky, son of Aleksandr Kerensky, led a second exodus, a warrior culture was created around the ideologies of that system of laws for war, with revisions.

When entering the IS, the four invading Clans (especially Smoke Jaguar) quickly learned that the IS had no idea about these rules and evoked the fury of the Clans.
As the IS forces, Draconis Combine especially, began to learn of the intricacies of these rules, they learned how to manipulate the Clans. Dracs liked it especially as it had several things that lined up with how they prefer to fight.
Each faction uses its own tricks. Some chose impossibly disadvantageous places for the Clans to fight. Others changed the game entirely ("We will fight on foot, in a stadium, and the greatest test of an army's cunning and prowess. Football.")

Jumping quickly back to the topic of cost and efficiency, the Clans made bids on the planets they were to invade, or when attacking each other. The ones that think they can achieve the task with the smallest possible force and the fewest possible casualties is the team that earns the right to perform the task, with disgrace for failure and prestige for success.

Prestige is what earns the right to priority with the Clan's supplies for repairs and weapons, not money.
As such if you were someone with a timber wolf, and you failed, you weren't getting repairs and had to succeed with what you had.
Or surrender it to someone that can beat your face in and/or kill you, as you have no right to claim it anymore.

Sorry for it being a bit scattered brained, had to rush it out. Off to work I go, good luck out there! Give an opinion on my latest laser idea under the energy weapons thread if you can, please.