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Cat-C4 Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Lurm


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#1 Captain1nsaneo

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 10:52 AM

Well I've got no friends who regularly play MWO so this gets posted here.

First some credentials so that people can get more creative with their insults, if you're just interested in the loadout it's somewhere below this. I don't know, I'm not your mother.

My skill rating is half way through the 'E' in "TIER 2". I don't know if that means I'm good but Baradul was in my last two games and someone ingame said he's the best player in the game right now so I'm going to listen to the voices and say that I've done enough time to be able to speak up without ending up in a corner wearing a cone.

Here's my current stable:
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Despite what the line of Atlases would indicate my favorite mech right now is Spot the C4.

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Sorry, I put the eyes on to scare away lights. You know, like a butterfly.

Here's the current build:
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And here's all the builds I've tried:
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Now to justify my love to the court. Or at least explain why the hell I'm running case-less with an XL engine.

While playing around with smaller engines I discovered that what was killing me the most was being slower than my team's death ball. Or at least the slowest members of my team. Being able to put friendlies between me and the enemy lights was almost as important as being able to quickly move to a better position to guarantee my missiles a clear path to their target. Speed also lets me keep most mechs outside the 180m minimum range while being chased and to get my juicy LRM boat butt out of collapsing rotations. Also if I lose half my mech, I've probably screwed up somewhere long before my ammo starts cooking off.

So going fast is mandatory. Next I need to answer 'Why are you calling yourself a boat with only LRM40? The Supernova can boat more ATMs than that.' That's annoyingly true! I started playing before Clans came out and I don't care to shell out for a second weapons stockpile. Still, I'm of the opinion that the C4 is the best IS missile boat currently for several reasons.

First is that it's not an assault. That may seem strange but good play requires sharing armor with the rest of the team and assaults bring a lot more armor than heavies do. An assault LRM boat that stays in the back reduces the heat the other team spends to kill the front line more than a heavy does. In general boating as a heavy leaves tonnage available for better brawlers.
Also I've tried boating LRMs on an Atlas, it was pretty terrible. In my defense it was the only big mech with an ECM at the time.

Second, the perks for the C4 are NUTS. They were good before the rework and now they're on the verge of being broken. Here's my current enhancements:
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(Quick note, if you swap the Tag out for a medium laser heat mgmt is ~1.87 which is still high enough that you can ignore shutdown.)


That's 32% missile cooldown, 25% range, and 25% velocity. When lurming these are key stats, the only one missing would be a mech bonus to missile spread.

The 1125 max range means that only ER large lasers and ER PPCs can make you keep your head down. Fights also are bizarrely likely to happen at around 1k away from where you want to be. Either way the better range lets you start firing sooner than other boats.

A higher missile velocity gives AMSs less time to shoot down your missiles before they land. Additionally, Inner Sphere LRMs have one advantage over ATMs in that they all come at once rather than in a string making it harder for an AMS to stop. This all contributes into turning potential damage into actual damage.
Also, having more LRM ammo than your enemies have AMS ammo helps.

When the changes to missile health values came out I tried four LRM10s instead of the two 20s. It seems smart; more health per individual missile, faster fire rates, same damage. But those of you versed with LRMs know that firing four LRM10s at the same time would cause ghost heat. To avoid that we chain fire which reduces the 40 missiles an AMS would need to shoot down to just 10 and even with the heath buff it's not a 4x difference. But lets ignore the ghost heat of Christmas Past for a moment. There's another reason to not bring more individual missile launchers. Heat management goes down for each individual weapon you have on your mech regardless of if you're firing it or not. To be able to sustain fire you want a few really large weapons, at which point the question becomes how fast can you fire them.
A 1/3rd cooldown quirk is something that you normally only see on mechs with very limited weapon slots so to find one on a missile boat feels almost wrong.

So what does the heat look like?
Well in actual matches where you're switching between targets as you lose and gain locks the between time lets the mech cool down. Even with the medium laser you never really need to pay attention to your heat. I distinctly remember a match on Terra Therma where I sat myself down behind a ridge and proceeded to go through all 2484 missiles without stopping or overheating.


But what about missiles missing? What about pin point damage? You can't head shot with LURMs! Get out of here boat boy! Neeeeerrrr.
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(note: for some reason 9 tons of LRM ammo is exactly enough to last a long match. I've had multiple games where I came within a couple shots of being out.)

Edited by Captain1nsaneo, 26 July 2019 - 01:40 PM.


#2 Horseman

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Posted 30 July 2019 - 06:50 AM

View PostCaptain1nsaneo, on 26 July 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

but Baradul was in my last two games and someone ingame said he's the best player in the game right now so I'm going to listen to the voices and say that I've done enough time to be able to speak up without ending up in a corner wearing a cone.
No, Baradul is good but not "the best player in the game".

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Here's the current build:
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Too much rear armor, no Beagle.

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Now to justify my love to the court. Or at least explain why the hell I'm running case-less with an XL engine.
CASE is generally a waste of tonnage.

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While playing around with smaller engines I discovered that what was killing me the most was being slower than my team's death ball.
That's down to positioning. I've ran LRM boats as slow as 54 kph without mich issues.

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Still, I'm of the opinion that the C4 is the best IS missile boat currently for several reasons.
Have you met our Lord And Savior, the Awesome AWS-8R yet?

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Also I've tried boating LRMs on an Atlas, it was pretty terrible. In my defense it was the only big mech with an ECM at the time.
Atlas isn't suitable as an LRM boat due to all missile hardpoints being packed into a single side torso.If you want to lurm on an assault, 4+ missile hardpoints divided into at least two separate locations is a must.

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Second, the perks for the C4 are NUTS.
AWS-8R could push 47% missile cooldown before the quirk nerfs that came with the Skill Tree. Now it's "just" 32% but whatever :P

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That's 32% missile cooldown, 25% range, and 25% velocity.
Range is useless, the spread of your missiles is a function of distance travelled. and as a result at the 1km range you will just lightly season the target.

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But what about missiles missing? What about pin point damage? You can't head shot with LURMs! Get out of here boat boy! Neeeeerrrr.
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(note: for some reason 9 tons of LRM ammo is exactly enough to last a long match. I've had multiple games where I came within a couple shots of being out.)
I see two good matches and two where you vomited damage without converting it to kills. Damage alone isn't useful, damage that stays on target until it's down, however, is very much so.

Edited by Horseman, 30 July 2019 - 06:51 AM.


#3 Captain1nsaneo

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 08:50 PM

Thanks for the discouragement.

Thought you had missed the missile update when you mentioned lacking a Beagle. Re-read the patch notes myself and noticed that lock-on time is a function of max sensor range. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll play around with a Beagle instead of an AMS and see if the additional 200 sensor range makes a noticeable difference to lock-on time. If it does I'll keep the change.

Didn't know about the AWS-8R's reputation but since it's an assault:

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An assault LRM boat that stays in the back reduces the heat the other team spends to kill the front line more than a heavy does. In general boating as a heavy leaves tonnage available for better brawlers.

Difference is 15 tons (65 vs 80).

Played around with the 8R in testing grounds and felt it was a brawler boating LRMs rather than long-range fire support.
Decided to test how long both mechs took to overheat. Gave the 8R the same ammo tonnage, same engine, same tag/Beagle, and two additional heat sinks than the C4. Only major difference was the change from 2x20 to 4x15. Used 15s as they are the only size that has a 20% CD quirk.

Shots until overheat on Forest Colony:
CAT:
19 without skills (40 per shot = 760 potential damage)(DPS: 11.6)
24 with skills

AWS:
11 without skills (30 per shot = 330 potential damage)(DPS: 18.75)

(Note that the C4 has a 10% heat quirk while the 8R has a 5%.)

Will the Awesome win in a 1v1 fight? Probably, it has 20 more missiles and half an urbanmech over the Catapult. But in an extended engagement without coolshot the 8R will be choking on its heat.

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I see two good matches and two where you vomited damage without converting it to kills. Damage alone isn't useful, damage that stays on target until it's down, however, is very much so.

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What about pin point damage?

Not getting killing blows is the nature of the beast with indirect fire as it requires another mech to be looking at whatever the LRMs are hitting. You can't tell if I cored the 5 most damage dealt mechs only for a light to knock them over with a small laser or if the missiles completely missed the torso and just stripped inconsequential armor.
If an event requires a high match score or killing blows that's what the Nightstar is for.

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Range is useless

Depends on the map and if you hate your scouts.

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the spread of your missiles is a function of distance travelled. and as a result at the 1km range you will just lightly season the target.

This isn't what I've experienced or if it's true it's such a minor effect to be insignificant. Do you have numbers?

#4 Nicholas Hyde

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 10:52 PM

If you're already going all-IDF, you can scrap the artemis FCS. Works only in LOS.

#5 Horseman

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Posted 02 August 2019 - 02:09 AM

View PostCaptain1nsaneo, on 01 August 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

Thanks for the discouragement.
I'm not here to discourage you, but I'm not here to pat you on the back and offer comforting lies either.

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Thought you had missed the missile update when you mentioned lacking a Beagle. Re-read the patch notes myself and noticed that lock-on time is a function of max sensor range. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll play around with a Beagle instead of an AMS and see if the additional 200 sensor range makes a noticeable difference to lock-on time. If it does I'll keep the change.
That isn't why you need a Beagle. Having a BAP protects you from being jammed by one nearby enemy ECM. Without it, a single nearby ECM Flea will shut you down HARD - and the same applies to enemy jamming in Incursion mode.

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Will the Awesome win in a 1v1 fight? Probably, it has 20 more missiles and half an urbanmech over the Catapult. But in an extended engagement without coolshot the 8R will be choking on its heat.
You can build it both for burst (4x15 or 4x15+A) and sustain (3x15+A).

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Not getting killing blows is the nature of the beast with indirect fire
Which is why I'm telling you that you rely too much on IDF. At the same time, if you're building purely for IDF then you don't need Artemis (per the LRM update, it no longer speeds up locks).

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as it requires another mech to be looking at whatever the LRMs are hitting.
Or you can play more aggressively and get your own locks.

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You can't tell if I cored the 5 most damage dealt mechs only for a light to knock them over with a small laser or if the missiles completely missed the torso and just stripped inconsequential armor.
And you can't tell if you peppered them to cherry state without taking away their firepower... the only good target is a dead target.

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Depends on the map and if you hate your scouts.
No, it doesn't depend on the map. Your missiles spread based on LOS (LRM patch again) and distance travelled. The closer you are, the more centered they are on the target. IDF has been heavily nerfed in the LRM patch and your most reliable way of making a difference is getting LOS to your own targets.

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This isn't what I've experienced or if it's true it's such a minor effect to be insignificant.
https://mwomercs.com...ad-experiments/
Which matches with my own experience. This is of course LOS-based
https://mwomercs.com...41980-19mar2019

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Attacks made in direct LOS will now have 20% tighter missile spread when compared to indirect fire.

Edited by Horseman, 02 August 2019 - 02:24 AM.


#6 Mister Maf

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 03:41 PM

Horseman's critique may not sound constructive but for the most part he is correct. 500 damage in a laser drill that all lands on the enemy CT is way more useful to the team than 1,000 damage in an IDF LRM boat that peppers all over every enemy but doesn't actually destroy much. Acquiring and holding your own locks makes LRMs far more effective because it tightens spread and reduces lock time significantly, to say nothing of the shallower travel arc which slips through AMS better.

Additionally, I posit that the Archer is actually a better LRM mech than both the Awesome and the Catapult for quickplay. It's sturdier than the Catapult and doesn't take up an assault slot, and it has energy slots for medium lasers (participate in the fight directly) and TAG (cut through ECM).

Edit: This is what I'm referring to, more specifically: ARC-2R No BAP but the 4xML and TAG more than make up for it if you are playing actively with the team rather than sitting in the back waiting to get chewed up by lights. If you must have a BAP, remove one heatsink and knock the engine down to a 280, but I prefer the extra cooling because playing actively with the lasers + missiles generates a lot of heat.

Edited by Mister Maf, 03 August 2019 - 03:53 PM.


#7 Chados

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 03:46 PM

I’m finding that since the LRM rework, range matters.

Long range indirect fire is best for ringing snipers’ missile alarms and making them reposition. Ran a match today on Tourmaline with a 4xcERPPC Warhawk Prime laying back 1100 m away sniping at us. I snuck up under a ridge 1050 m from him in a Cat C-2(S), because it has range quirks and a 1071 m LRM range, and drove him off his perch, allowing the team to punch through that flat area next to where the HPG generator sits in Domination matches without getting sniped.

Then I moved up with the team, and went tactical. That’s where I prefer working, using short range IDF over obstacles, and direct fire in combination with secondaries, working in the 300 m range. That’s where you share the danger, share armor, and use all your weapons to best effect. 572 damage, 3 KMDD, 2 kills, and we won out. I even had one Loki laserboat try to close with me but I’d stripped him before he got over the ridge and once he did my LMGs finished the fight. Build is 2xALRM15/4 tons (1100 rounds), 2xSSRM2/1.5 tons, 2xLMG/1 ton, AMS/1 ton, 2xJJ, BAP, TC1, LFE 260.

I’m not a fan of builds like the OP’s, because they’ve got no ability to deter reds closing inside 180m. You’ll punish them til, they get there but once there you’re meat. They work for some people but I can’t get anything out of them but hunted down and hammered. Of course, I can’t make laser HBRs work either.

#8 Captain1nsaneo

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 04:40 AM

2.5% damage lost per 100m is insignificant.
But let's do some math using an ALRM-40's starting core damage of 60% at ~200:
200: 24
400: 22
600: 20
800: 18
1000: 16

Personally I don't believe those numbers due to the methodology (direct line of sight, immobile target). But considering that it's much harder to miss with missiles than direct fire weapons, that's roughly an AC10's worth of core damage at double the range for a one second slower rate of fire.

I could see how Mister Maf's archer build works out. Good coverage and good heat. I struggled with my archer-5W, couldn't find a build where I could both get reliable results and I wanted to pilot it. A fun thing though is packing in enough LRM5s to constantly chainfire; making a rainbow out of missiles. Appropriately though, It attracts lights like a pot of gold.

Chados, are the two tons and heat from the JJs worth it for the extra maneuverability? I've found them underwhelming outside of the faster turn rates. If you swap them and the TC1 out for a bigger engine you could get a 295 which is almost a full 10KPH faster.

#9 Captain1nsaneo

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 08:49 PM

Follow up on switching out the AMS for a Beagle. I've been using it over the last few days and I don't know if it's sample bias or if it's legit but I've been regularly putting up solid numbers.

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This was the best match out of the last 3 days.

Every match that wasn't on an LRM unfriendly map (Solaris) has ranged from good to acceptable. Looks like I'm keeping the Beagle probe even though there were a time where I could have done more damage if I had had an AMS to help with a missile slap fight.

#10 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 27 July 2021 - 01:46 PM

ah the OP is another lover of the CAT-C4, a favorite of mine as well. i run mine with 2 Art-LRM-20s and 2 MLs. not sure of the exact build as i don't have the game up right now. i stopped using Tag when they nerfed the hell out of it and NARC. the rest is just filled with ammo armor and engine/DHS. i did run it with quad LRM-10 for a time firing in twin volleys (right box then left or simply fire all till heat needs to be watched more closely.)

i do enjoy running LRMs from time to time. there are a number of good medium and heavy class IS mechs for running them but the CAT is sort of the traditional IS Lurm boat.

as far as damage numbers go on an average map i can easily hit 500+ it all depends on the team honestly (goes the same in any match. if you team crumbles or refuses to shoot its going to be a bad day for any build let alone if you get stuck on solaris). no with a team working together and pressing R (it just helps to have some targets you can snap to quickly if yowu say lose LOS with your current target or your current position doesn't offer an self targets.). its nothing to crack over 1000+. yes its not pinpoint put all damage is good even if all you manage to do as an LRM boat is get an assault or two to back off the firing line or say help a team mate who is stuck to somewhere where there is no direct line of fire or to far for help to get there. they a versitile and under appreciated weapon in my book. if you don't like them don't use them and let others have heir fun is all i am sayin they have a role on the battlefield beyond kills


honestly i think this was originally a thread on the good old CAT-C4 and not intended to slide into the quagmire that is the old Lurm agument

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 27 July 2021 - 02:20 PM.






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