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Choke On This Epic Fail Store. An Indie Dev Made The "right" Decision


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#1 Wing 0

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:30 PM

For an Indie Developer, This guy has surely been paying attention to what has been happening to games that get put on the "Epic Fail Store" Exclusively. He made it very easy and clear as to why and what he posted on a news outlet is exactly what should be an example of that all dev groups and all should be doing. Not just for Indie devs but all. This guy thought of the long run and explained about how amazon had always focused on its customers first and how it made them to being the biggest companies now. Yong Posted this not too long ago and I 100% agree.



Why am I bringing this up? Im sure you know why. You know why we want to tell Russ Bullock and [Redacted] who made that piss poor choice at the AMA to "abandon" its main customers (our community) for the sake of profit that "This is a message".

Right now PGI, You and anyone who is associated to it are what many calling your group "Dirty Devs" (Something that SidAlpha on YouTube made which I Agree on) and that is a term you do not want to have labeled as a company at all. Sadly; you guys gave yourselves up to that when you did something you shouldn't have done at that AMA hoping to deadlock us all from something we wouldn't be able to have. What im talking about is this. CHOICE.

You guys only gave us a month short term option after announcing that idiocy decision to refund anyone who pre-ordered Mw5 as far as January when the site for pre-orders went live. Yes you guys have [Redacted] into hoping to lock so many people out of a deal that the "Community didn't Agree on" and that is not something I would've done if I was in Russ's shoes.

So sit back, relax and enjoy watching that vid and ask yourselves this. What made PGI to stoop so low as to "Abandon" a Community (Customers) for the sake of "money".

Edited by draiocht, 23 August 2019 - 08:51 AM.
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#2 Prototelis

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:56 PM

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#3 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:02 PM

A couple of things to say here..

1. PGI made this decision to become EGS exclusive for profits to stay afloat. MWO wasn't raking in any money so, yeah. They decided to get paid first for a product.

2. Refund was nonsensical. Yes, they promptly offered the option of refund. BUT, the one month time limit is what is nonsense. See, me, I didn't go for the refund. I want to keep my pre-order. I probably won't care how bad the game is when released 'cause there is a dearth of proper Battletech games and I like it, though I'm a newcomer to the franchise (started with HBS Battletech).

Anyway, why is the one month time limit a complete nonsense? Well, imagine the EGL doesn't have proper modding support 3 months into the game launch. Then, the promise of modding support has gone down the drain. Now go further and imagine that a person hasn't used the EGL key to download MW5 even after 3 months. After seeing this unkempt promise, they NOW want to refund. They haven't used the key, they haven't downloaded it. Why can't they get a refund now? That's the whole problem of getting committed to EGS exclusive the way PGI did.

3. The promise of staying afloat is sometimes better than "Loyalty" 'cause the company has to retain its employees first and foremost otherwise, guess what? No customers. Now, this is a very debatable topic but from the opposite POV, it makes perfect sense.

So, the concept of loyalty is good but in this case, it isn't 'cause there isn't enough money being made from the current product and how well the new game does is anyone's guess. Remember that there have been only 20k-or-something pre-orders? I don't think that's enough. What is clear though is that the way PGI handled the situation, barring offering refunds, has been very poor. So, picking one e.g., of an indie developer "sticking it to the corporate types" is just silly. We must grow out of that high school thought process.

#4 Prototelis

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:45 PM

"proper modding support" is just a front end and tools that are maintained for you.

The game is still going to be moddable.

Battletech doesn't have "mod support" and has plenty of mods.

#5 GeminiWolf

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:58 PM

View PostWing 0, on 22 August 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

For an Indie Developer, This guy has surely been paying attention to what has been happening to games that get put on the "Epic Fail Store" Exclusively. He made it very easy and clear as to why and what he posted on a news outlet is exactly what should be an example of that all dev groups and all should be doing. Not just for Indie devs but all. This guy thought of the long run and explained about how amazon had always focused on its customers first and how it made them to being the biggest companies now. Yong Posted this not too long ago and I 100% agree.



Why am I bringing this up? Im sure you know why. You know why we want to tell Russ Bullock and [Redacted] who made that piss poor choice at the AMA to "abandon" its main customers (our community) for the sake of profit that "This is a message".

Right now PGI, You and anyone who is associated to it are what many calling your group "Dirty Devs" (Something that SidAlpha on YouTube made which I Agree on) and that is a term you do not want to have labeled as a company at all. Sadly; you guys gave yourselves up to that when you did something you shouldn't have done at that AMA hoping to deadlock us all from something we wouldn't be able to have. What im talking about is this. CHOICE.

You guys only gave us a month short term option after announcing that idiocy decision to refund anyone who pre-ordered Mw5 as far as January when the site for pre-orders went live. Yes you guys have [Redacted] into hoping to lock so many people out of a deal that the "Community didn't Agree on" and that is not something I would've done if I was in Russ's shoes.

So sit back, relax and enjoy watching that vid and ask yourselves this. What made PGI to stoop so low as to "Abandon" a Community (Customers) for the sake of "money".

Its on the Internet so its fact

Edited by draiocht, 23 August 2019 - 08:52 AM.
Quote Clean-up


#6 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:05 PM

So?

#7 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:44 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 22 August 2019 - 10:45 PM, said:

"proper modding support" is just a front end and tools that are maintained for you.

The game is still going to be moddable.

Battletech doesn't have "mod support" and has plenty of mods.


Yes. But it's better to have proper modding support otherwise you'll have something like Roguetech, though fantastic and I highly recommend the mod, it makes an already badly optimized game even worse 'cause of all the loose files. And you can't get right into modding Battletech without making even more loose files.

There's a reason why Bethesda games like TES and FO can have large, expansion sized mods and a big amount of changes to the main quest itself whereas in Battletech, even modifying the main campaign a little bit or trying to mod the game to have more than 1 Lance at your disposal is a monumental task.

#8 Prototelis

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:52 PM

Yeah, sorry. That isn't really a barrier to entry. Modtek wasn't exactly difficult to configure last time I tried it.

#9 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:04 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 22 August 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

Yeah, sorry. That isn't really a barrier to entry. Modtek wasn't exactly difficult to configure last time I tried it.


Modtek isn't difficult to figure out but that doesn't help you when you want to have more than 3 specialized skills for your mechwarriors or if you want to redo the skill tree to include separate branches in them. These are just e.g., of how Battletech isn't mod friendly though there are plenty of mods for it. Those mods are barely any different from yourself changing some of the values in the .JSON files and adding some meshes to be used in the game. If you want proper custom missions and changes done everywhere, you need proper modding support which the game doesn't have. At least, not like TES and FO games.

MW5 should be like TES and FO, not like Battletech in terms of modability.

#10 Prototelis

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:13 AM

Not exactly a barrier to entry, sorry.

Unreal also handles content injection differently.

#11 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:18 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 23 August 2019 - 12:13 AM, said:

Not exactly a barrier to entry, sorry.

Unreal also handles content injection differently.


It's not about content injection, man. It's about how easy it is to make mods that aren't simply like tweaking some numbers and adding a few extra meshes. If the modding support is bad, then we won't be getting the same kind of great mods that we have for TES and FO series. Instead, all we'll get is nominally viable ones like we have for Battletech where even the good ones for that game are often lacklustre.

We "might" get something like Deus Ex : Revision after more than a decade and a half of the game's release. PGI certainly doesn't want that, I think.

#12 50 50

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:26 AM

Oh for f .....
Still on with this.

I would consider 'abandoning the community' to be suddenly pulling the MW5 game entirely and not releasing it at all.
The beautiful thing about gamers is they will find a way.
Personally I couldn't give a rat's hairy little arse if the store had modding support or not.
However, I understand there is a very sizeable and enthusiastic portion of the human population out there that lives and breaths that stuff. Before we even had these game platforms and had to go down to nearest store to buy the games, people used various websites dedicated to mods. People who wanted the stuff could find it regardless.
But if it's oh so precious to get your mod advertised through mod support on the game platform and you can't...... game over man. Game over.

Fraud?
Seriously?
By it's basic definition.... no, not even rationally acceptable and I've had a few drinks.
Fraud would be taking the money and not delivering the goods.
Good as still being delivered, just via a different method. It's like saying the good would be delivered by courier and sorry, no, going to deliver it via post.
Still getting the goods.
Even been offered to refund before delivery if you don't want to receive it by post.
So... no.

Change of delivery because they could get a better offer, still provide the goods, potentially remove some risks and see some additional benefits?
Far out?

Too much emotion involved.
Perhaps there have been a few bad experiences with the game store.
Wouldn't be the first though we might have expected them to have a more robust and feature complete launch.
Meh.
Mistakes get made.
Bigger companies with more resources and longer track records continue to screw up.

Either get the game and enjoy it or don't.

#13 Prototelis

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:31 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 23 August 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:


It's not about content injection, man.


What you're talking about, running a mod, is content injection.

Quote

We "might" get something like Deus Ex : Revision


Deus Ex was on an incredibly old version of Unreal, so old as to almost not be related to the current generation of engines,
Thats like comparing Quake to Goldsrc to Source.

Its also coincidentally a game that actually has an SDK that includes a level editor soooo.... not sure where you're going with that.

I actually know some of the people that worked on that mod tho; it was a true labor of love.

#14 Curccu

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:56 AM

View Post50 50, on 23 August 2019 - 12:26 AM, said:

Oh for f .....
Spoiler


Thank you for writing this so I don't have to Posted Image

Edited by Curccu, 23 August 2019 - 12:56 AM.


#15 MadcatX

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 01:08 AM

View PostWing 0, on 22 August 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

Not just for Indie devs but all. This guy thought of the long run and explained about how amazon had always focused on its customers first and how it made them to being the biggest companies now. Yong Posted this not too long ago and I 100% agree.


Shouldn't have used Amazon as a company to strive for... it's customer first but employees last.

#16 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 01:09 AM

View Post50 50, on 23 August 2019 - 12:26 AM, said:

Good as still being delivered, just via a different method. It's like saying the good would be delivered by courier and sorry, no, going to deliver it via post.

Except ... is it? ... Example: PGI promises you an express delivery of pizza directly to your front door, so you make an order. But then instead of delivering they tell you that they will maybe deliver your pizza in a few weeks to a post office that is several miles away and that your pizza will not have the ingridients you've payed for either.

And sure, they offer you a full refund that you can claim in a bank you never use ... but the thing is, for months they've had your money and used it, i.e. they've taken an absolutely free loan from you and given you nothing in return except big "FU" statement.

View Post50 50, on 23 August 2019 - 12:26 AM, said:

Bigger companies with more resources and longer track records continue to screw up.

They do, because thanks to apologets like you they can get away with it with little to no reputation and/or finantial damage.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 23 August 2019 - 01:10 AM.


#17 Prototelis

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 01:18 AM

FWIW; I don't believe for a second those pre orders were operating capital.

I also believe that the epic deal was signed shortly before the FAQ was changed, and that culling references to other platforms from their website was a part of that deal.

Making a deal != A deal that has been made.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not really defending their actions. I think its kind of butts to not announce they were considering this while those preorders were open or even shortly after they were closed.

Honestly, they could have spun this into an "lolololololol eff you epic" thing where they set a goalpost for not taking the epic deal.

Although, I honestly can't blame them for what probably amounts to selling 10 times as many copies of the game that were pre ordered. Keeping your peoples in a job is at least admirable in a way.

#18 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 01:59 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 23 August 2019 - 12:31 AM, said:

What you're talking about, running a mod, is content injection.



Deus Ex was on an incredibly old version of Unreal, so old as to almost not be related to the current generation of engines,
Thats like comparing Quake to Goldsrc to Source.

Its also coincidentally a game that actually has an SDK that includes a level editor soooo.... not sure where you're going with that.

I actually know some of the people that worked on that mod tho; it was a true labor of love.


Can you agree at least that my e.g., of FO and TES vs Battletech isn't in vain 'cause of the ease with which the games are moddable? It's the reason why Battletech is so rigid in terms of modability 'cause you can't even put in an additional Lance under your control though it should be quite simple. That's why I also mentioned DE: Revision. Eventually, EVERYTHING is moddable. But that is not what the modders need. They need FO and TES series' level of ease.

Take another e.g., Grim Dawn. I made a completely custom class and called it "The Flash" and it worked very well. I even added some meshes that made a tiny portion of the game look like a small city with roads. Despite being clunky, Grim Dawn's Path Engine editor is very easy to make mods with and make entire levels with, though not many are there. That's what I'm getting at. The easier and more support there is for modding, similar to FO and TES series, then modders will make mods for it. If it is not, then the promise of modding support is flushed down the drain. PGI did mention releasing the editor soon with the game's actual release so, there is that much at least.

#19 Prototelis

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 02:08 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 23 August 2019 - 01:59 AM, said:


Can you agree at least that my e.g., of FO and TES vs Battletech isn't in vain 'cause of the ease with which the games are moddable?


I really can't. Its only marginally easier to inject content. Thats really the only key difference in "proper mod support."

And to be fair; both of those games have limitations when it comes to modding.

"mod support" doesn't mean its a free for all where you can do whatever you want.

Unreal editor is an incredibly flexible tool; "steam workshop" doesn't suddenly make parts of the game moddable that weren't going to be to begin with.

Edited by Prototelis, 23 August 2019 - 02:10 AM.


#20 Anjian

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 02:50 AM

Comes in a right time while Nintendo focused on indies in the last game show. Nintendo boasted of 19 indies headed to the Switch. Nintendo? They should know something about gaming, right?





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