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Archer Arc-5W Srm Builds


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#1 War Kitten

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 08:11 AM

Greetings All,

I am trying to find a decent srm build for my 5W. I don't do LRMs much (except for events), and I can't really do SSRMs because *someone* forgot to put at least *one* laser HP for a TAG....

I know Artemus is preferred, but I have no problem without it, the spread does not seem to be that much different either way, (it would be nice if the stats would reflect accurately for the spread numbers, it doesen't change no matter if I have Art or not. I do use all the skill nodes for missiles. I would like to use all of the hard points if possible, hate to waste any.

I have no problem with the "too many at once" warning as I can split them up, (I use a 2 button mouse), or chain fire. I use full armor except on the legs as needed for extra tonnage. (I noticed that most mechs that get legged are light or fast mediums, I tend to use assault or heavy so don't usually get "leg focused"),

On a side note: I find the doors to be an annoyance, and throw off my timing if I forget to open them at the start of the match and see no need of them as 95% of all the missile carrying mechs don't have them. I assume they are there for "lore accuracy"...but this is just me not used to doors.

Thank you all for any advice or help!

War Kitten

#2 Tesunie

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 08:35 AM

View PostWar Kitten, on 15 September 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

Greetings All,

I am trying to find a decent srm build for my 5W. I don't do LRMs much (except for events), and I can't really do SSRMs because *someone* forgot to put at least *one* laser HP for a TAG....

I know Artemus is preferred, but I have no problem without it, the spread does not seem to be that much different either way, (it would be nice if the stats would reflect accurately for the spread numbers, it doesen't change no matter if I have Art or not. I do use all the skill nodes for missiles. I would like to use all of the hard points if possible, hate to waste any.

I have no problem with the "too many at once" warning as I can split them up, (I use a 2 button mouse), or chain fire. I use full armor except on the legs as needed for extra tonnage. (I noticed that most mechs that get legged are light or fast mediums, I tend to use assault or heavy so don't usually get "leg focused"),

On a side note: I find the doors to be an annoyance, and throw off my timing if I forget to open them at the start of the match and see no need of them as 95% of all the missile carrying mechs don't have them. I assume they are there for "lore accuracy"...but this is just me not used to doors.

Thank you all for any advice or help!

War Kitten


For SSRMs, a BAP is more effective for most of what you are looking for, disabling ECM units so you can get a lock. TAG doesn't actually help with that aspect unless you are outside the enemy ECM bubble yourself. TAG use to shorten missile lock times, but with the relatively recent changes to missile lock times, I believe that TAG lost that aspect (except for the case of indirect locks on a TAGed target).

On note of Artemis and SRMs, the larger the launcher, the more you will notice it's effects. For SRM2s, Artemis is basically a waste of tonnage. For SRM4s, it's debatable (more beneficial for Clan SRM4s). On SRM6s, try to take Artemis if possible, it really helps land damage in a single location.

On notation of skills, if you have a pure missile (SRM in this case) build, than getting spread skill nodes is very beneficial. This of course lands upon preference and what other skills you value over said other skills. The aspects you want with SRMs is to reduce their spread (in most cases) so more of your damage will land on a single location. Getting all 24 SRMs on a single location would deal about 55 damage (because they seem to deal more than 2 damage per missile but less than 2.5, not sure if online mechlab is incorrect or when this was changed) to that location. If only half of those missiles hit said location instead, now that's 27ish damage. Big difference. (On the other hand, spread can sometimes make a near miss into at least a partial hit...)

On leg armor, just note not to lower it too much. If people see a glancing hit drop your legs a few shades of color, they will focus them as a weakness. You also can strip some armor from your head component, but once again don't take too much off. You want enough armor/structure left to be able to take the occasional hit there. Some mechs you can strip the armor off the arms (not so much in this case, weapon loadout dependent). Things just to be mindful about.

For the doors, you'll either want them open from the start, or keep them closed. When they are closed they reduce damage dealt to that location by a percentage. I think it's anywhere from 10-25%? I'm not certain on this number. It's one of the things that can make a Kintaro (with Std engine) really durable. Place a single small rocket launcher in it's CT, it gains a missile door, and never shoot the rockets so you retain that damage reduction.



As for builds, I personally don't use Archers. I gave them a try, and was unhappy (at the time) with opponent's ability to select a side torso for concentrated fire despite myself twisting that said torso away from the enemy to try and shield it. This was before new tech, so I'm not sure if new tech has helped the mech, or if it saw some hit box love since then (I don't believe it's hit boxes have been changed however).

My recommendation (due in part from hit boxes) might be to check MRMs on this mech. Gives a little range option and a good potency of damage output. Otherwise, I'd suggest making either an SRM4 boat with as many SRM4s as you can pack (might exceed ghost heat limits, even with two weapon groups, and chain firing SRMs isn't always effective), or making an ASRM6 build with ~6 SRM6s (guessing on what might be effective tonnage to weapon count here).

Sorry I couldn't provide any specific builds of my own. I wish you luck with your Archer.

#3 Spheroid

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:08 AM

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#4 War Kitten

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:03 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 15 September 2019 - 09:08 AM, said:

A:6820B1|jb|i^|i^|\O|\?pd0|[<2|i^|i^|i^|\?|\?qd0|[<2|i^|i^|\?|\?r\0|6@|6@s\0|6@|6@tl0|\O|\Oul0|\O|\Ov@0|\Ow608080



"Barely receiving you, Gamma Three-Niner, Outpost Riviera responding, what is your situation?" or WTF???

War Kitten

#5 Spheroid

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:12 AM

That is a build code. Copy and paste it into mechlab.

#6 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:40 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 15 September 2019 - 09:08 AM, said:

A:6820B1|jb|i^|i^|\O|\?pd0|[<2|i^|i^|i^|\?|\?qd0|[<2|i^|i^|\?|\?r\0|6@|6@s\0|6@|6@tl0|\O|\Oul0|\O|\Ov@0|\Ow608080


And yeah, don't use that build War Kitten. (translated HERE to see). It's extremely poor for the below reasons:
  • CASE in torsos. Totally and utterly useless. Wasted tonnage. There is ZERO justification for using it.
  • STD engine - Useless.
  • Leg armour - Max - Bad.
  • Rear torso armour - 8pt - too high
  • Build cannot Alpha. 5 x SRM4 incurs ghost heat. An extra 5.36 heat for it.
Use the below build... Less heat, bigger alpha, more speed for marginally higher spread.

ARC-5W

#7 War Kitten

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:41 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 15 September 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

That is a build code. Copy and paste it into mechlab.


Ah, I see (said the blind man who picked up a hammer and saw), I will try it....thank you.

War Kitten

#8 Spheroid

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:50 AM

Your *** must be bored to lurk New Help section Ash. Stay in faction.

#9 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 11:06 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 15 September 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

Your *** must be bored to lurk New Help section Ash. Stay in faction.


Well the heading for this section is...

Questions from New Players, answered by Experienced Players.

Saving new users from train-wreck builds is doing exactly that.

#10 Tesunie

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 11:21 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 15 September 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:


And yeah, don't use that build War Kitten. (translated HERE to see). It's extremely poor for the below reasons:
  • CASE in torsos. Totally and utterly useless. Wasted tonnage. There is ZERO justification for using it.
  • STD engine - Useless.
  • Leg armour - Max - Bad.
  • Rear torso armour - 8pt - too high
  • Build cannot Alpha. 5 x SRM4 incurs ghost heat. An extra 5.36 heat for it.
Use the below build... Less heat, bigger alpha, more speed for marginally higher spread.


ARC-5W


1. CASE can be useful in the side torsos (only place an IS mech can take it currently) under specific situations. In this case, a Std engine was taken which means stopping an ammo explosion from damaging the CT extends the mech's life. It's a justification, but with ammo having something like a 10% chance to explode when destroyed by crits... it's a very low justification. CASE can also be useful in a LFE, but once again with the notation of low ammo explosion chance... It's not much of a reason to take it. Considering it's taking 0.5 tons per side torso, that weight can often be used for something else.
2. Std engine can be useful in some builds, but typically when you would take a Std engine, you'd be better taking a LFE in most every case.

3. Max leg armor isn't "bad". If one has the tonnage, leg armor should be maxed. However, as mentioned already before, dropping some leg armor for additional tonnage is fine, and often encouraged. In the case of the Archer, legs normally aren't targeted as often as a side torso typically is, or CT even.

4. Most likely, people assume that armor will be adjusted by the new user to match their preferences. Some people like more rear armor than others. Considering the Archer's hit boxes, it's known to take occasional back hits (from what I last recalled) from the front on the side torsos. If it still does, than additional armor on the back of the side torsos may not be overly bad. 8pts is a reasonably amount for most players, though 4-6 pts is more average for today's gameplay. I wouldn't be too critical about a couple of extra points of armor on the back than normal.


Overall though, I do agree with your points (as can be noted above).

As for the build you are criticizing, according to the MW:O Mechlab, it doesn't throw Ghost Heat warnings for having 4 SRM2s and a single SRM4 (which is odd). Taking it onto Tourmaline for testing, I can alpha and reach acceptable heat levels for most players. I can hold down the button and continue to shoot non-stop for a reasonable amount of time (about three alphas. 3 SRM4 shots and 4 SRM2 shots before overheating). If spaced with your SRM2s and a single SRM4 and four SRM4s, it can run reasonably cool.

Do not get my assessment wrong here. Your build appears to have better alphas and better heat management, but the other build you've criticized is not as "extremely poor" as you've made it seem to be. It's not as optimized for the alpha, but it's not a bad build either.

It would have a small advantage over your posted build actually, via faster reload times due to the SRM4s, compared to the SRM6s you have on your build. It also will have better spread because SRM4s are tighter spread than SRM6s. If anything, the build posted by Spheroid would need a little better optimization, such as removing CASE and possibly trying to upgrade it's engine to a LFE. (I've added AMS to help against ATMs. However, it can just as easily be removed for an additional ton of ammo or upgrading the engine one step up with 0.5 tons additional ammo.)

#11 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 06:17 PM

View PostTesunie, on 15 September 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:


1. In this case, a Std engine was taken which means stopping an ammo explosion

As for the build you are criticizing, according to the MW:O Mechlab, it doesn't throw Ghost Heat warnings for having 4 SRM2s and a single SRM4 (which is odd).


Really? Me thinks you're replying for the sake of it.

CASE - there is no ammo in the torsos. Therefore it is exactly as i said, wasted tonnage and crit slots. Something IS mechs are always short on.

SRM/Ghost heat - There are 5 x SRM4s. That triggers ghost heat.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 September 2019 - 06:19 PM.


#12 Tesunie

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 07:26 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 15 September 2019 - 06:17 PM, said:


Really? Me thinks you're replying for the sake of it.

CASE - there is no ammo in the torsos. Therefore it is exactly as i said, wasted tonnage and crit slots. Something IS mechs are always short on.

SRM/Ghost heat - There are 5 x SRM4s. That triggers ghost heat.


CASE: Case prevents ammo explosions from continuing through the location it is equipped on. For example: In this case, this Archer carries it's ammo in it's legs. If an ammo explosion happens (10% chance) the ammo will deal the remaining damage to the internals (bypassing armor) of the mech. If the ammo bin was full (for arguments sake), that would be roughly 276 damage dealt purely to the mech's internals. This is more than enough damage, even with damage reduction from passing through to another section of the mech, to destory the mech's leg, side torso and center torso.
In the above example, CASE would stop that ammo explosion damage at the side torso, preserving the CT from damage. As a reminder, IS CASE can only be placed within the side torsos. Clan CASE is free and placed automatically within any location that has ammo within it (which prevents Clan ammo explosions from proceeding past that location).
This is why it often is not a bad idea to place your weapons and ammo together on Clan mechs. If the weapon is destroyed, you don't need the ammo. If all your ammo explodes, you no longer need the weapon. Clan CASE prevents any additional loss to your mech beyond the destruction of the location that the ammo exploded from.

As such, CASE can be useful, but with ammo only having a 10% chance to explode when destroyed via critical hits, it typically is not a high enough chance to normally require the crit slot and tonnage IS needs to devote to CASE. This is a "typically", but not "always" situation. Normally, yes. CASE for IS is a waste of tonnage, especially with CASE and IS XL engines, where it is literally completely worthless. CASE in a Std and LFE can have merit, but still normally isn't recommended. Not recommended does not mean "utterly useless", just "not as useful on average as other gear for the tonnage/crits".

SRMs and Ghost Heat: According to the MW:O mechlab, quad SRM2s and a single SRM4 launcher did not produce any Ghost Heat (GH). The remaining four SRM4s also did not produce the warning trigger for GH. Thus, the above build could shoot it's SRMs within two volleys to bypass GH. It can also, if needed, alpha all it's SRMs with only marginally more heat. I ran the build on the testing grounds on Tourmaline. It ran reasonably well (with no skills) during my heat torture tests. Even an alpha from this mech is reasonable to it's heat scale.


Here is the difference between your proposed build concept and the concept of the other Archer, Yours aims for maximum alpha for shoot and scoot fire. The other Archer is built more for rapid fire and tighter spread, hence SRM2s and SRM4s (which has shorter cooldowns than an SRM6 launcher and smaller spread).

Going head to head, the other Archer actually has a better chance of landing damage where it wants with less spread and can shoot it's missiles faster to deal damage quickly over a short time period, while also maintaining a little more durability if an ammo explosion happens to it and causes the loss of a side torso(s) occurs. (This build can also alpha with little worry.)

Meanwhile, your build does run cooler and has a higher damage alpha. It also maintains a faster speed due to larger non-Std engine (unless you consider my version which had the LFE and runs almost as fast as your build with the same weapons and cooling as the original Std engine version, and maintains 1 free ton to upgrade farther. Maybe trim some leg armor and get an even larger engine, more ammo, AMS... Whatever).


Overall, each of the (now three) proposed builds currently are rather equivalent to each other. Yours may be "most optimized" (particularly for poke and hide play styles), but it doesn't out pace the other two suggested builds so much that they are "extremely poor builds" in comparison. The other builds are well made and within a reasonable measure of each other.

#13 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 09:28 AM

The hole idea of adding the srm2 is get max Alpha without GH. Ashs build is just better.
In the Archer closing the doors while moving etc. gives a huge ghost HP bonus. (But needs a bit of training)

If u do the ghost HP thing with rl (like on the kintaro) u can shoot the weapon. It is only important, that u equip a missle weapon (Not If there is ammo left)
https://mech.nav-alp...a8405db4_KTO-18

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 16 September 2019 - 09:50 AM.


#14 Tesunie

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:33 AM

View PostIgnatius Audene, on 16 September 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

The hole idea of adding the srm2 is get max Alpha without GH. Ashs build is just better.
In the Archer closing the doors while moving etc. gives a huge ghost HP bonus. (But needs a bit of training)

If u do the ghost HP thing with rl (like on the kintaro) u can shoot the weapon. It is only important, that u equip a missle weapon (Not If there is ammo left)
https://mech.nav-alp...a8405db4_KTO-18


I did say that Ash's build was better, but at the same time it's not so grossly better as to place the original suggested build into the "extremely poor" ranking. My issue was not rather one build was subjectively better or not, it was with how harshly the slightly less optimized build was criticized. The original build, despite ghost heat issues, is still a reasonably good build.

Comparatively, a build of nothing but max SRM2s and 10-16 tons of ammo would be extremely poor. Or a build of 8 SRM6s with only a single ton of reloads would be extremely poor. The original build is fully functional and should perform reasonably well, so it's not exactly extremely poor.

I also mentioned that the original posted build did have some minor advantages over Ash's build. Where it lacks in alpha, it gains in faster reload times and reduced spread. Recall I'm calling these minor advantages, as it depends upon the situation as to which build may perform better. On average, Ash's build probably would see better performance, but possibly not in all situations. (There was also a reason I "optimized" the original build. With a few minor alterations, the original suggestion could be improved upon to place it even closer to Ash's recommendation.)


As for the missile bay doors, I was not certain if the weapon still needs to be a viable weapon to gain the missile door benefits or not. So that is nice to know. I still would probably find it a rare case to shoot the rocket launcher, as the intent is to keep the missile doors closed for the damage reduction. However, with the knowledge you've provided, it now opens another weapon if needed. It's still not advised to place anything you would generally use in the Kintaro's CT, if you are taking it with the intent of reducing damage.

#15 Ruccus

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:51 PM

Personally I like my Archer ARC-5W as an SRM boat; I've got so many MRM mechs (including the Archer Tempest) and the 5W is tanky enough to use SRMs. I like this build though there's nothing wrong with the SRM6 variant.

I prefer the tighter spread of SRM4s and the increased top speed with the 340LFE to more quickly close within SRM range (and get out of trouble when things go bad), but the SRM6 variant packs a heck of a punch and can usually follow up with a second SRM6 volley before the enemy can fire their big guns a second time.

#16 Cato Phoenix

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 03:58 PM

I use 8x SRM4s.

Ammo and armor to taste.

#17 Mechwarrior 37

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 03:51 AM

I changed it from SRM 6's. And yes, forgetting to open the doors sucks, lol

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