41 replies to this topic

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

There was melee combat system in Battletech, so I believe it should be in Mechwarior games.

I played For Honor(medieval combat game) for some time now and I believe its possible to apply the game combat system for the MWO.

In the medieval game you can press the "auto-aim" button to get into the one-on-one combat mode. There is a block and strike system based on the mouse directions while in auto-aim mode. A player strikes have some reach, so a person non-willing to participate in melee have hard time to run from the melee attacker. Yet its possible for a fast character. So, I believe the system will be just fine for a Battletech first person game to apply.

[Siegegun]

Been gone over dozens and dozens of times. Will not happen in this game. PGI couldn't master knockdowns or even making your mech be able to crouch. They certainly cannot master melee, especially as this game is now in maintenance mode. Even if they could make mechs melee they probably do not have anyone to be able to actually implement this. I personally do not think they even have the ability.

[Prototelis]

Melee in this game would look like garbage.

IK is actually a core feature in this version of the engine; you can see it employed every time something dies. Those effects aren't synced. The reason we don't have IK/knockdowns in the game has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with the engineering choices they made in regard to being heavily server authoritative

[Siegegun]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 07:47 AM, said:

Melee in this game would look like garbage.

IK is actually a core feature in this version of the engine; you can see it employed every time something dies. Those effects aren't synced. The reason we don't have IK/knockdowns in the game has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with the engineering choices they made in regard to being heavily server authoritative

The reason we do not have IK/knockdows/melee has EVERYTHING to do with ability. These things can be put in, PGI just can not do it. The game being heavy server authoritive is not the issue. PGI is the issue. Other games and game companies have no problems implementing these things in very similar setups, its PGI with these issues.

[Prototelis]

Siegegun, on 07 October 2019 - 07:58 AM, said:

The reason we do not have IK/knockdows/melee has EVERYTHING to do with ability.

No, it has everything to do with the server authoritative nature of the game. It more or less makes it impossible. There is no other shooter as heavily server authoritative as this game.

Note that IK is still in the game, but the effect is not synced between clients.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 October 2019 - 10:17 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

No, it has everything to do with the server authoritative nature of the game. It more or less makes it impossible. There is no other shooter as heavily server authoritative as this game.

Note that IK is still in the game, but the effect is not synced between clients.

I'm not sure if that just Cry Engine limitation or if Unreal Engine is the same

[Prototelis]

It isn't an engine limitation; its the result of an engineering decision.

[Siegegun]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

No, it has everything to do with the server authoritative nature of the game. It more or less makes it impossible. There is no other shooter as heavily server authoritative as this game.

Note that IK is still in the game, but the effect is not synced between clients.

How heavy is it? How can they make it that crazy? Does the host state rewind play into this? Do you know if CryEngine itself and any other limitations in the engine play into this? I have never played with or used CryEngine so I know little about its strengths and weaknesses. I guess I have a hard time understanding when it really is not super hard to do in a lot of other engines, even in some older engines that are server authoritive. I am genuinely curious.

Did not realize IK is still in the game, I thought the mechs flopped about because of model ragdoll physics, or assumed that. Does CryEngine require IK for that effect?

[Willard Phule]

Siegegun, on 07 October 2019 - 06:58 AM, said:

Been gone over dozens and dozens of times. Will not happen in this game. PGI couldn't master knockdowns or even making your mech be able to crouch. They certainly cannot master melee, especially as this game is now in maintenance mode. Even if they could make mechs melee they probably do not have anyone to be able to actually implement this. I personally do not think they even have the ability.

Not entirely true. Back in the day, knockdown was a thing. Then the guys from [GOON] decided to curb stomp Paul. Took turns knocking him down after he stood back up. The next day, knockdown was removed. There's still a video of it on Youtube.

[Siegegun]

Willard Phule, on 07 October 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not entirely true. Back in the day, knockdown was a thing. Then the guys from [GOON] decided to curb stomp Paul. Took turns knocking him down after he stood back up. The next day, knockdown was removed. There's still a video of it on Youtube.

I remember that and have seen the video lol... Been here since the beginning of open beta.

ha-HAA Russ!

[Zigmund Freud]

I doubt there can be balance where melee is not totally useless against ranged, without nerfing any ranged weapons into oblivion. But it can be a fun gimmick to kick leghumping lights or do those extra 15 dmg when you're already stripped of everything, but somehow still have arms

Edited by Zigmund Freud, 07 October 2019 - 11:52 AM.

[Prototelis]

Willard Phule, on 07 October 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not entirely true. Back in the day, knockdown was a thing. Then the guys from [GOON] decided to curb stomp Paul.

That has a lot less to do with it then you might think. Infact, that video highlights how bad IK and knockdown was due to sync issues.

[Novakaine]

This would be great, but of some fools would find a way to abuse it.
And that would be that.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

Maybe at first hand I needed to say, that I am actually quite enjoy the game in its current state. Everything works as good as, well I expected it to be when the game started. I mean FP is playable, LRMs are survivable, balance overall is balanced. I kind of see the game is great at the moment. So, I kind of surprised about the all whine posts in the thread:)

So, I actually wonder if people see in general: an arena mech game with melee, yet not melee-centric. How do you feel about it?

Zigmund Freud, on 07 October 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

I doubt there can be balance where melee is not totally useless against ranged, without nerfing any ranged weapons into oblivion. But it can be a fun gimmick to kick leghumping lights or do those extra 15 dmg when you're already stripped of everything, but somehow still have arms

In the Battletech melee actually works for long range and especially assaults profit. Your lrm boat may punch people while heated.Not to mention, it maybe make all-ranges builts more viable too.

Edited by Sneaky Ohgoorchik, 07 October 2019 - 02:49 PM.

[Anubis Ka]

If only knockdown/melee was based on the each mech's weight class you wouldn't see a light blocking an assault from moving.
It would remove the leg humping lights.
I still think physical ramming should be a thing, more so than it actually is in game.

[LordNothing]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

No, it has everything to do with the server authoritative nature of the game. It more or less makes it impossible. There is no other shooter as heavily server authoritative as this game.

Note that IK is still in the game, but the effect is not synced between clients.

the number of interesting features that got the axe because of pgi's need to control everything at their end is completely absurd. it also makes poor use of the client side cpu resources which you can offload some of the computations, especially for visuals like ik. but because the server doesn't trust client side visuals they just aren't done, and it places a larger burden on the server side (requiring higher performance servers which is $$$). its also why the tag laser cant work like it does in living legends, and why we cant have arm actuators with physics (also the reason for the laser meta that still persists to a degree).

i presume they did it to keep cheat and grief under control, but even that's dubious as that has not put a stop to it. the other purpose needed for an f2p is to keep players from gaining access to content that they are not entitled to (by either grind or pay), and im not even sure about that one either. as you can simply kick someone if they drop with content they don't have in the database and flag them for further moderation. so all in all i find the server authoritative design a huge mistake that places unnecessary limits on the game design.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 October 2019 - 07:32 PM.

[Prototelis]

If I had to guess I'd say it was for two reasons;

Accurate hit reg (which this game has, despite how much crying you see)
Prevent most kinds of cheating (which this game does not have, despite how much crying you see)

[PhoenixFire55]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

That has a lot less to do with it then you might think. Infact, that video highlights how bad IK and knockdown was due to sync issues.

Sync issues? ... So Dragon having a ridiculous knockdown weight (which is an XML value) has something to do with sync now?

Just stop. Really.

[LordNothing]

Prototelis, on 07 October 2019 - 08:16 PM, said:

If I had to guess I'd say it was for two reasons;

Accurate hit reg (which this game has, despite how much crying you see)
Prevent most kinds of cheating (which this game does not have, despite how much crying you see)

there's still a couple edge cases for both of those. not really enough to make any sizable dent in the gameplay. but i like to point at them because its proof that authoritative or not nothing is perfect.

[Anjian]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 07 October 2019 - 06:39 AM, said:

There was melee combat system in Battletech, so I believe it should be in Mechwarior games.

I played For Honor(medieval combat game) for some time now and I believe its possible to apply the game combat system for the MWO.

In the medieval game you can press the "auto-aim" button to get into the one-on-one combat mode. There is a block and strike system based on the mouse directions while in auto-aim mode. A player strikes have some reach, so a person non-willing to participate in melee have hard time to run from the melee attacker. Yet its possible for a fast character. So, I believe the system will be just fine for a Battletech first person game to apply.

Code wise, this is definitely possible on a robot mecha shooter game, and there is one game just recently released on the western side of the PS4 market already doing this.



Its not pleasant though, I got my butt kicked on this. People know how to use their shields to block fire, then rush you with an axe or sword swinging.

Edited by Anjian, 08 October 2019 - 02:14 AM.