149 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

Jyi, on 28 November 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

I did. I did the assassination mission with a Jenner with only SRM's. Solo.

I have done a couple of the missions solo with some of the worst possible stock loadouts.

I did the demolition mission in a Commando 1B with very slightly tweaked armor and stock weapons.

I don't really know how I can go lower without purposefully gimping myself. And I don't even consider myself a good player. Average at best.

And it isn't hard. Even a mech dad with a joystick can do it as soon as they realize how the AI works. Or doesn't work, to be more precise.

Heck, the AI does almost as much damage to each other as it does to me. I have done the assassination mission without shooting at the first Locust even ONCE and then checked their health mid-battle - and they've been cored from behind with armor on orange from the front. Then, after killing the main target, I've left that Locust behind (in a 48 kph KGC) and it hasn't even tried to follow me or shoot me in my wide open back.

If you're ok with basically a 100% success rate of missions regardless of player input, then I guess you're ok with the game. For me, it breaks the immersion.

Like I said, the AI is serviceable. It's not going to be like a MWO Comp Player. I ran the Assassination mission last night solo in a Locust with SRMs and I skipped most of the targets to complete the mission. I was banged up but not totally cored. If I had stayed to kill all the enemies, then I'd have lost components. Now, in the main campaign if I did that, I'd have weigh that decision against repair costs and downtime.

For a niche game like this, it's better if the AI is slightly on easier side since it can be tweaked by just about anyone. When HBS Battletech was released, the AI was easy and the game was over the moment you salvaged a couple of Heavies. Then came some tweaks from the community and eventually Roguetech. The same will happen to MW5. I wouldn't be surprised if within a week, there was some tweak to the AI to make them all like Quake 3's Xaero on Nightmare with a rail-gun.

You're basing stuff off of the demo which has set things on easy mode 'cause you're not encountering elite mechs and pilots. They're all crappy builds. Their accuracy isn't the greatest therefore it takes a while before you start taking some serious damage. There'll be tweaks. Just relax, man.

Mystere, on 28 November 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

Pet Peeve:

Just because legions upon legions of dime-a-dozen script kiddie wannabe AI "experts" are learning Python in droves does not mean that is actually the correct way to do AI.

What a stupid comment that is.

[Mystere]

ScrewyNinja, on 27 November 2019 - 10:44 PM, said:

I actually emailed support on the joystick issue. as I am running a Thrustmaster Cougar with rudder pedals. Nothing was recognized by the game. I got a response from the tech support guys in under 2 hours. to sum it up they are still coding the joystick inputs for some other older usb stuff. But I was assured that my current setup will be compatible with MW5. We shall see.....

That eerily sounds like what they said about MWO. And we all know how that went. <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 28 November 2019 - 07:29 PM.

[Papaspud]

My personal OPINION, the AI isn't brilliant, but serviceable. The game runs great on my machine in ultrawide mode, no noticeable problems in the 10 or so games I played. The graphics are good, the mechs feel good- they have a little more weight to their "feel" and I have found it enjoyable so far. I am personally looking forward to playing the campaign, that is the meat and potatoes of single player, this is just a demo.

I expect a really good fun game coming out of the gates- obviously there will be hiccups, and once the modders get some time with it....this could be the best mechwarrior single player game yet, and that is what it is all about. Imagine the maps and missions some of these bright fellows will come up with, my experience in games with mods- fallout skyrim, etc has always been good, there are some real gems modding when they like what they are doing.

I kind of laugh at the people who refuse to use epic, because other than loading the game from epic.... you will never see the launcher again. Not like rockstar that forces you to use their online service every time you load RDR2- you never see the epic launcher after you have loaded the game..

I give it a thumbs up with what I have experienced so far.

[Jyi]

FRAGTAST1C, on 28 November 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

For a niche game like this, it's better if the AI is slightly on easier side since it can be tweaked by just about anyone. When HBS Battletech was released, the AI was easy and the game was over the moment you salvaged a couple of Heavies. Then came some tweaks from the community and eventually Roguetech. The same will happen to MW5. I wouldn't be surprised if within a week, there was some tweak to the AI to make them all like Quake 3's Xaero on Nightmare with a rail-gun.

I don't agree with this. I think the AI should be on the more competent side, because then the developer could easily introduce difficulty settings that just tweak a variable or two in the AI to make them easier. But a completely incomptetent AI (like the one currently in the demo) is way harder to mod into offering a sensible challenge without making it - as you mention - a "Quake 3's Xaero on Nightmare with a rail-gun".

I don't think anyone wants an AI that one-shot headshots us from maximum distance, we just want an AI that doesn't auto-complete objectives for us by shooting each other in the back.

Quote

You're basing stuff off of the demo which has set things on easy mode 'cause you're not encountering elite mechs and pilots. They're all crappy builds. Their accuracy isn't the greatest therefore it takes a while before you start taking some serious damage. There'll be tweaks. Just relax, man.

Read what I said above. This isn't about accuracy, it's about basic function. I have had the pleasure of taking these "elite" AI's as lancemates in the demo, and even though they hit what they shoot and they do somewhat what I tell them to, they are still dumb as bricks and shoot me and each other in the back, run into buildings, get stuck on ground etc. etc. etc.

So no, I don't think there's a reason for me to chill until the game launches and I'm either proven wrong (which I would be happy about) or proven right.

Edited by Jyi, 28 November 2019 - 07:40 PM.

[Anomalocaris]

Per the recommendations of a few people, I watched some of the B33F's stream playing MW5 demo. Ooof. If he hadn't been playing an ammo limited build, I'm pretty sure he would've had killed a few hundred enemies before eventually having his armor ablated. And that was a single mission on max difficulty.

That said, he like the look, feel, weapons, etc. I think he also said "If this was PvP it would be awesome".....

Edited by Anomalocaris, 28 November 2019 - 07:41 PM.

[N0MAD]

Papaspud, on 28 November 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

I expect a really good fun game coming out of the gates- obviously there will be hiccups, and once the modders get some time with it....this could be the best mechwarrior single player game yet, and that is what it is all about. Imagine the maps and missions some of these bright fellows will come up with, my experience in games with mods- fallout skyrim, etc has always been good, there are some real gems modding when they like what they are doing.

I think people have modding and re programming mixed up. Adding mods is one thing, (are the maps not generated?) re programming is totally different, are thing like AI re programmable?. Adding assets is one thing, changing the code well we will see.

[Mystere]

FRAGTAST1C, on 28 November 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

For a niche game like this, it's better if the AI is slightly on easier side since it can be tweaked by just about anyone ...

What is the point of so-called "difficulty settings" if they service only one type of player?

FRAGTAST1C, on 28 November 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

What a stupid comment that is.

I've witnessed said folks "in action" in several AI-related conferences over the last 2 years or so. If the patterns I have been observing continue, the next so-called "AI Winter" will arrive even sooner than the last one did.

What those patterns are I leave for you to find out … if you can. <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 28 November 2019 - 08:01 PM.

[Koniving]

Side note, I've learned earlier today that UE4 features a tree system for creating AI that doesn't require any coding knowledge.

Improving the basic AI actually would not be much of a challenge, as apparently the base AI in MW5 Mercs is very simply established. The main thing is it would require an investment of time alongside a comprehension of the game and the foresight to predict circumstances...a skill PGI doesn't really have. The AI as is can adapt to the loadouts it is given, too.

For those interested.

Also contrary to seemingly popular belief, the difficulty of the mission is not affecting the enemy AI. (If anything the AI seems better on lower difficulty missions due to fewer of them, as the AI has a condition dictating how aggressive they can be based on the number of AI units are actively engaging in combat so as to prevent outright slaughtering the player.) "Difficulty" ranging from 40 to 90 appears to reflect how many enemy units can appear at one time and potentially how many may appear overall.

Edited by Koniving, 28 November 2019 - 09:52 PM.

[KHETTI]

From what i've seen the only real concern i have is the Ai, other than that it looks like a great starting point for MWO 2.0

[Koniving]

Agreed. The game itself actually is pretty decent.'

I've only encountered a single non-AI related bug and that was very circumstantial (AC/2 BF stuck in permanent firing with no way to stop it).

I expected more issues.

[Jyi]

KHETTI, on 28 November 2019 - 09:58 PM, said:

From what i've seen the only real concern i have is the Ai, other than that it looks like a great starting point for MWO 2.0

My personal concerns include the AI and lack of polish in certain areas - like the map not including grids or coordinates of any kind, the apparent lack of reconnecting to a co-op -game, different mech variants feeling too samey and a couple UI things.

Otherwise, the game feels good. Some of the core mechanics are very nice.

Edited by Jyi, 28 November 2019 - 10:09 PM.

[Dee Eight]

N0MAD, on 28 November 2019 - 05:58 PM, said:

No i havent played it but i have watched alot utube vids, i recommend the one done by the Beef.

Well I have the beta, I've played the beta, and I've owned and played every prior video game of the battletech universe and the AI as shown so far on fixed settings of a demo version is perfectly acceptable if you're not being a nit picking streamer with a small viewing audience. I looked at the B33f's twitch channel and found his 7 hour video of 3 days ago with its mighty 760 total views. But having skimmed thru it...

It looked to me like he enjoyed the first mech combat, was stunned to learn there's no PPC min range as it is in MWO (which is wrong btw... in battletech the minimum imparts an accuracy penalty only) and was also surprised by the engine explosion effect, as well as the fact that he couldn't just smash through large buildings. Its as if he barely paid any attention to the MW5 discord or AMAs.

2nd battle he doesn't seem to have figured out while the enemy AI difficulty is fixed in each mission, you can CHANGE the AI setting of your lance mates and he set his as automatic. He took a locust and died to one of the VTOLs and the look on his face when it happened.

3rd battle he spent a lot more time in the mech lab and only then discovered he could change his armor values and AI lance mate pilot skills and set them Elite. So of course they're going to do better and while the fifth mission is listed as the most difficult, that's is most likely based off the # of opponents / length of the mission, not the value the enemy AI is operating at as others have repeatedly tried to explain. The RAID mission is actually the most difficult one to play of the five based on the enemy settings.

Fourth mission he kept trying to DFA his lance mates and he and his viewers seem clueless the AI is designed to keep the friendlies from colliding with you, thus they're going to move out of the way of a DFA attempt. Also PGI said months ago there would be no melee combat in MW5. He did seem to find a bug where his Atlas lance mate got caught in the jump animation of another lance mate which actually fired its jump jets.

And on it went for hours and hours. He died a few times, he brought various meta builds against stock mechs, he harped on the AI but also admitted he'd never played anything except one previous MW title a bit when he was a child and all his battletech experience has been MWO. Also like many streamers he seems taken in by the movie files PGI "leaked" in one of the content folders. They didn't do that by accident. They are teasing what's to come in 2 weeks.


You want videos... watch Baradul's... 50k views in 3 days.

Edited by Dee Eight, 29 November 2019 - 04:44 AM.

[Prototelis]

Dee Eight, on 29 November 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

7 hour video of 3 days ago with its mighty 760 total views.

lol, guarantee he had the most viewers at the time he was streaming.

Surprised you were actually lurking there

Edited by Prototelis, 29 November 2019 - 04:55 AM.

[Unleashed3k]

Dee Eight, on 29 November 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

snip

There is only 1 true source for streaming Mechwarrior, yes, you know the name: The_B33f

https://www.twitch.tv/the_b33f

Who tf is Baradul? He doesn't even have the right voice for this game

jk

Edited by Unleashed3k, 29 November 2019 - 04:55 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 28 November 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

Pet Peeve:

Just because legions upon legions of dime-a-dozen script kiddie wannabe AI &quot;experts&quot; are learning Python in droves does not mean that is actually the correct way to do AI.

It's the difference between making an AI in the game and modding AI. Honestly the vast majority of of game AI is essentially pre-built AI that you mod for your game.

[Anomalocaris]

Dee Eight, on 29 November 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

You want videos... watch Baradul's... 50k views in 3 days.

Baradul is nothing next to B33F, and Baradul would probably tell you that too. He's also a bit fanboyish, but that's part of his charm. I like and have donated to Baradul in the past.

Nonetheless, B33F also stood still for like 5 minutes in the middle of combat without taking any meaningful damage and then took a dual gauss atlas and headshot 15 mechs and got what, 30 kills before he ran out of ammo?

[HammerMaster]

Music: Horrible
Intro: Horrible Go watch MW2 Mercs or MW3 or MechCommander or HBS Battletech
Graphics: OK-ish
Mechlab: MW4 Style...seriously
Single shot ACs: please. Why do we have to pay in tonnage for BF (burst fire) when they are supposed to be in first place? Don't get me started about LBX. I can throw stones faster than an AC-20 shell. Come on.
LRMs: Too slow out of tube
NO MELEE?!: Un-Friggin-forgivable. It was in in MS-Dos 1989. Make it happen in 2019. Seriously. Also ZERO recoil for ACs. Zero recoil for getting hit. No knock down. No falls. Amateur night again.
No active/passive radars?????
No ammo dump.
All stuff I hope to mod out/in. THANKS guys.


I'll remind you guys to load up MechWarrior 3 and see how much more "sim" it was and HOW MUCH IS MISSING. Not that I white knighted a lot here but I'm not doing it. No. Done.
I feel I'm going to agree with the people who stated this is gonna be like Bethesda's games where its a good base but will really shine after the modders fix all the original laziness.

Edited by HammerMaster, 30 November 2019 - 01:55 PM.

[Quandoo]

compared to the old mw titles, mw5 is more nonstop action and way less simulation.
there are many mech action games, if they go that route they set sail to fail.

[MischiefSC]

You're literally playing the "instant action" segment of the game.

Which prior MW titles had melee. Maybe I've missed something.

MWO style customization makes salvage and upgrading almost irrelevant, gimps progression and makes the gap between player and stock AI oceans apart. To make that viable you'd need to eliminate stock mechs and the bulk of lore and have the AI all in meta customized mechs or give AI "armor and damage buffs", which is just as bad.

Knockdown got removed from MWO for a reason. Same reason stability got nerfed almost completely out of HBS Battletech. If I can make an enemy helpless with 1 or 2 volleys that's the absolute meta. Same with impact recoil. If you can gimp the enemies accuracy with ballistics and missiles you're creating a balance issue.

I dialed the music back to almost nothing. I do that for almost all games though.

Graphics feel washed out. Especially paint jobs. I do want the MWO crispness and decals and such. I have everything on max and it looks kinda foggy.

Burstfire has no tonnage cost. Its the same. It just does more damage but you lose the precision. I wish it was better because while it's more fun the single shot is more effective if you can aim. I say give burst fire significant velocity buff and single she'll velocity need or keep the same.

Ammo dump is irrelevant as ammo explosion isn't a critical thing, like in MWO. Given the average gamer population and stock builds/AI I can see why but modding in ammo explosion and ammo dumping could be fun - but it's a strong buff for players in custom mechs over AI in stock.

Active/passive radar would be kinda interesting, would require some AI tweaks. Again, this is a buff to players over the AI in general. Most of us wouldn't use it.

HUD needs work.

Missiles just.... Need work. Smaller, just straight up more MWO feeling.
MW5 is like an upgraded MW4 with some MWO and, hopefully when we get the campaign, HBS Battletech mechanics added in.

I'm more the good gameplay > sim mechanics sort, up to a point - needs to stick to lore as much as possible. Given that extreme customization was incredibly rare and prohibitively expensive in the field I like the customization limits, I can also easily see where it would be a balance nightmare.

I, probably like most people, will play it stock and enjoy it for a good long while then I'll mod it. However I would NOT mod in Mechechlab or knockdown or radar toggle to get limited stealth or the like for the same reasons I wouldn't do unlimited ammo and no heat. Stuff to make AI better and more dangerous, better/crisper graphics, burstfire buffs, that I'm game for.

But that's the great bit. Yeah, it's the core mechanics and a pretty casual player focused game because that's most people.
I

[Dee Eight]

MischiefSC, on 01 December 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

Which prior MW titles had melee. Maybe I've missed something.

Mechwarrior 1 did. Ramming and DFAs worked in it.