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Mw5 Variants Are Underwhelming


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 01:00 AM

So I'm looking at more MW5 games, and I just realized that, MW5 mech variants are completely underwhelming. With the Sized-Hardpoints system, a variant is just some differently-upgraded mech.

Like the King Crab, when we were used to putting 4 UAC5s, now it's just ever the single large-ballistics, You can't put more missiles, and you can't put more energy weapons. Its always stuck on one energy, and one additional missile -- what is up with that? I get that it's supposed to be the Mech-With-Two-Cannon-Arms, maybe it's easier to balance this way, but its kind of less flexible for my taste.

I think it would have been more interesting with more customized variants. For example:

KGC-000R:
- Upgrades: Endo-Steel
- Heatsinks: 14 Double
- Armor: 17t (Standard)
- Hardpoints: 2B x 5-Slot, 4E x 1-Slot, 4M x 1-Slot
- Armament: 4x AC5 (4t Ammo) + 3x ML + 3x SRM4 (3t ammo)

KGC-000F:
- Upgrades: Endo-Steel
- Heatsinks: 14 Double
- Armor: 17t (Standard)
- Hardpoints: 2B x 7-Slot, 2E x 2-Slot, 2M x 2-Slot
- Armament: 2x AC10 (3t ammo) + 2x LRM10 (2t ammo) + 2x LL

KGC-000G:
- Upgrades: Endo-Steel
- Heatsinks: 14 Double
- Armor: 17t (Standard)
- Hardpoints: 2B x 10-Slot, 2E x 3-Slot, 1M x 6-Slot
- Armament: 2x AC20 (2t ammo) + LRM15 (1t ammo) + 2x LL

Consider the difference of the three proposed variants, they fill niches on their own and are respectable by themselves due to the hardpoints alone.

The 000R allows the Dakka Builds, of up to 4x UAC5, but it is at a downside that it can only put Medium Lasers, Flamers, Tags, LRM5s, SRM2s and SRM4s in there, it also cannot put AC10s and heavier ballistic weapons. At best it can only have up to 20 tubes of LRMs (4x LRM5s), and 16 tubes of SRMs (4x SRM4s), but it does have the advantage of being able to put many different small weapons.

The 000F allows GRs, AC10s, and below, though it cannot mount AC20s or PPCs, likewise anything larger than LRM10s in their missile, to a maximum of 20 LRM tubes, or max of 2x SRM6s or 12 SRMs.

The 000G allows the use of AC20s and PPCs, this means that it's the only way to build boom-builds like 2x AC20 + 2x PPCs, or the usual Gauss-PPCs. It is the only King Crab that could mount Artemis LRM20.

Overall, I do think that the MW5 variations of mech could do better, especially with custom variants. There is still the element of searching that specific mech, so you could built your specific specifications.

Maybe when the mods comes out?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 December 2019 - 01:03 AM.


#2 Applejack

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 04:54 AM

I find it laughable that they made the customization system more restrictive than in MWO when, arguably, MWO is where you'd make the case for more restriction because it's a multiplayer game so balance is more important.

This is a single-player game, where you're supposed to let the player do more of what they want and less of what they don't want.

#3 ACH75

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 08:45 AM

They have just imported stock MWO builds to save time as it was saved unpolishing the game...

The game is Fun but needs far more love and far more work to reach his full potential

#4 cszolee79

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:13 AM

I think it's fine. This way, mechs / variants actually matter, unlike MWO where every one of them is basically the same, the only difference being the shape and where the hardpoints are.

#5 MrMainiac

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:44 AM

It's essentially artificial difficulty.

I'll be going on a rant about it later in a new thread

#6 Sabertooth1966

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 10:09 AM

I personally have no issues with the sized system they used. About the only thing I may have liked to see different is allowing more of smaller sizes to put in a larger slot. Like a large slot could take two med or three smalls, a med could take 2 smalls. Something like that.

#7 Kilogold

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 04:24 PM

[laughs in MW4M]
I think we'll see mods that open up the hard points very quickly after mod tools arrive. They did say it would be easiest thing to do with it. Should be a matter of changing a few variables with each mech.

#8 The6thMessenger

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 06:14 PM

View PostKilogold, on 29 December 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

[laughs in MW4M]
I think we'll see mods that open up the hard points very quickly after mod tools arrive. They did say it would be easiest thing to do with it. Should be a matter of changing a few variables with each mech.


I wouldn't mind it being full of bugs, and with lack-luster polish, many games are like that and the community fixed them through mods. Though if PGI wanted the community to fix their **** for them, which we would happily oblige, Epic-Exclusivity isn't the way to do it.

The Steam-Workshop is a great platform which would have let us fix stuff for them, though Nexus-Mods is also a good place to do it. PGI being PGI I guess

#9 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 07:21 PM

Fixed, size-limited hardpoints aren't the problem. It's simply the lack of available variants. I rarely see any "rare" and "good" variants on the battlefield. Even in the market, I can't find those rare and good mechs regularly.

#10 The6thMessenger

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 10:05 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 29 December 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

Fixed, size-limited hardpoints aren't the problem. It's simply the lack of available variants. I rarely see any "rare" and "good" variants on the battlefield. Even in the market, I can't find those rare and good mechs regularly.


Why would variants be that much of a problem if basically they are just the same, only with little variations? I mean sure there are those that are completely varied and different, but if you are getting basically the same set of sized-hardpoints like that of the King-Crab, why does it matter?

Fixed, size-limited hardpoints sure aren't the problem, but the lack of hardpoints are. It limits what you can do with mechs, and if they are basically the same, they limit what you can do with the entire chassis.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 December 2019 - 10:15 PM.


#11 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:18 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 29 December 2019 - 10:05 PM, said:

Fixed, size-limited hardpoints sure aren't the problem, but the lack of hardpoints are. It limits what you can do with mechs, and if they are basically the same, they limit what you can do with the entire chassis.


The thing that I don't mind is some mechs being inferior to the others. But not being able to get good variants of certain mechs is bad. I'm referring to the Grasshopper 5P. All I've ever seen so far is the 5H whereas the 5P is simply superior not 'cause it comes with DHS, but it has arms only as shields. Same with the Awesome. I've seen only missile variants.

#12 Nesutizale

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:49 AM

I have seen quite a good number of PPC Awesomes. About the Grasshopper....that one I haven't seen either.
Thing is that the variants are poping up by faction and then randomly inside their terretorie and by what the progression of the timeline is.

#13 cszolee79

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 02:50 AM

Those mechs arrive at later dates.
Awesome 9, Grasshopper P, Dragon whatever, Highlander 732B, Atlas K, etc.

BTW fun thing. Atlas K and Atlas KR. The KR, the hero variant is the exact same as the K, except... it has NO AMS.
So it is actually worse than the non-hero version. Hmm...

#14 The6thMessenger

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 05:17 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 30 December 2019 - 01:18 AM, said:

The thing that I don't mind is some mechs being inferior to the others. But not being able to get good variants of certain mechs is bad. I'm referring to the Grasshopper 5P. All I've ever seen so far is the 5H whereas the 5P is simply superior not 'cause it comes with DHS, but it has arms only as shields. Same with the Awesome. I've seen only missile variants.


Yeah, so? Far be it from me that I am looking for my own pet mechs, but if it's performance you are wholly concerned surely it's not going to matter much if you could kit them out as close or even better as it gets? Search for your pet mech is another thing, but we as supposedly mercenaries with limited resources, are supposed to make do with what we can find regardless -- it would be more cost effective to build what you have into the performance you desire than simply wait for fortune to put your pet mech on your lap, or go off on a wild-goose-chase. In that respect being able to customize mechs waaay beyond their stock build to get better potential on otherwise generally worse mech abides by that thought, the immersion in the mercenary life.

We can still balance them with respect to their highest potential, stock-build is balanced stock-build to stock-build, but we are mercs, likewise building your mech is part of the game and if anything a big one at that.

View PostSabertooth1966, on 29 December 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

I personally have no issues with the sized system they used. About the only thing I may have liked to see different is allowing more of smaller sizes to put in a larger slot. Like a large slot could take two med or three smalls, a med could take 2 smalls. Something like that.


So can we like put 10 machine-guns on an AC20 slot?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2019 - 05:30 PM.


#15 Maddermax

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 06:13 PM

The fact a number of lore variants  have identical hard points is annoying, it makes sense that you can’t fix an AC20 into an AC2 hole. It really means that the mechs you find available really determine how your run is going - different run, different mechs, different feel. I understand that, and think it’s cool.

Rather than making the system much different, I’d love to see the option at industrial hubs to pay a lot of money to modify weapon hard points - a million or two and a month of works to upgrade a slot one larger, or split a large hard point into 2 mediums, and so on. It would make things way more customisable, while giving a real cost in money and time to craft stronger mechs.

Edited by Maddermax, 30 December 2019 - 06:14 PM.


#16 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 07:07 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 30 December 2019 - 05:17 PM, said:


Yeah, so? Far be it from me that I am looking for my own pet mechs, but if it's performance you are wholly concerned surely it's not going to matter much if you could kit them out as close or even better as it gets? Search for your pet mech is another thing, but we as supposedly mercenaries with limited resources, are supposed to make do with what we can find regardless -- it would be more cost effective to build what you have into the performance you desire than simply wait for fortune to put your pet mech on your lap, or go off on a wild-goose-chase. In that respect being able to customize mechs waaay beyond their stock build to get better potential on otherwise generally worse mech abides by that thought, the immersion in the mercenary life.



Then, your argument that the mech variants are underwhelming falls flat if, as a mercenary, we should be forced to deal with what we have. Of course they are underwhelming which makes perfect sense when you consider the world economics where a Ferrari does everything a a regular, cheap road car would do and does other things better whereas the road car will get you from A to B and it remains underwhelming.

The mech variants are like that. Some are superior than others while certain mech chassis are far better than another in the same weight bracket. So, I don't see how a mercenary should be able to suddenly swap engines, custom-fit hardpoints, etc.,

View PostMaddermax, on 30 December 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

Rather than making the system much different, I’d love to see the option at industrial hubs to pay a lot of money to modify weapon hard points - a million or two and a month of works to upgrade a slot one larger, or split a large hard point into 2 mediums, and so on. It would make things way more customisable, while giving a real cost in money and time to craft stronger mechs.


This was suggested during the Beta/demo stage, I think.

#17 carl kerensky

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 09:11 PM

I like the idea of the Hardpoint limitations of these mechs. It makes searching for variants more purposeful and more realistic. Im having a blast creating my lances up based on it. As far as mods opening up the mechs for unlimited hardpoint modding ? No thanks. Not for me. I will wait until the Omnimechs show up.

#18 Prototelis

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 09:24 PM

^You can have meaningful variants worth searching for without restricting most of the variants in the game to being bad. **** they can even be luore flavor.

#19 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 09:25 PM

The hardpoints need a little bit more thought, I think. For e.g., I get that the Annihilators are meant to be basically turrets and as such, have lots of hardpoints but you can't put an AC20 or a Gauss in it. The best that we can do in terms of dakka is LBx10 solid slugs or 4 UAC5s. I'd much rather be able to put 2 Gauss in it. It still wouldn't make it a Nightstar, which has 2 Gauss + PPC but there will be some flexibility for the Annihilator. Similarly for the Mauler or Warhammer Black Widow. They can boat AC2s but can't even mount a single UAC5.

#20 The6thMessenger

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 10:19 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 30 December 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

Then, your argument that the mech variants are underwhelming falls flat if, as a mercenary, we should be forced to deal with what we have. Of course they are underwhelming which makes perfect sense when you consider the world economics where a Ferrari does everything a a regular, cheap road car would do and does other things better whereas the road car will get you from A to B and it remains underwhelming.


Being forced to deal with what we have, to "make do" does not mean we settle with terribad mechs, it just means that we have to be a lot more creative with available materials. You want to talk about arguments falling flat, yet you couldn't even understand that.

You do know that, even in real life, there are those that make custom cars, custom bikes? Hell, people restore vehicles? While they may not be as fast as a Ferrari, but the point is with their own handiwork they can pump out better performance out of otherwise underwhelming vehicle due to be worn out, or just poorly made by doing it better themselves.

You know, guess what, we can also put guns on a car.

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 30 December 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

The mech variants are like that. Some are superior than others while certain mech chassis are far better than another in the same weight bracket. So, I don't see how a mercenary should be able to suddenly swap engines, custom-fit hardpoints, etc.,


Never said that we should be able to swap engines, nice strawman there. I just said that they should be a bit more customizable, add more variety. Even if you add more hardpoints, there will still be objectively better mechs, exactly because of weight brackets, along with speed.

Consider the Ferrari and the regular-old-car in your previous analogy, you can upgrade the old-car into working condition, hell put even Nitrous-Oxide to put it into speed that can match the Ferrari, but if the Ferrari was similarly tweaked it will steal leave the old car behind. The point is that, the tweaked car is still pretty fast than it would be otherwise, when not tweaked.

The problem as I see with your line of thinking is that you want to restrict their performance regardless of whether they are customized or stock, and that is bad by the way. All you could see is the floor, when we're talking about the ceiling.

View PostPrototelis, on 30 December 2019 - 09:24 PM, said:

You can have meaningful variants worth searching for without restricting most of the variants in the game to being bad. **** they can even be luore flavor.


Yes, thank you.

Stock mechs aren't supposed to be the best, they are just supposed to be cost-effective, that is why the cheap ones like the Urbanmech are bad -- for a good reason, and it takes fine-tuning them to perform satisfactorily.

View PostMaddermax, on 30 December 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

The fact a number of lore variants have identical hard points is annoying, it makes sense that you can’t fix an AC20 into an AC2 hole. It really means that the mechs you find available really determine how your run is going - different run, different mechs, different feel. I understand that, and think it’s cool.


Yeah, but you know, having weapon mounts just restricted to what the weapons the mech have isn't exactly a fun mechanic. By all means, sure don't put an AC20 on just a supposedly AC2-sized hardpoint, but it's not like that should only be the hardpoint of a mech.

You people want to reference real world, well guess what, military likes modularlity, ever heard of Rail-Accessory-System (Picatinny Rail)? What about the plethora of AK and AR15 derivatives? The point I am getting is that it's just makes sense to make a flexible platform, and just make variants based on different attachments.
Consider the Ferrari and the regular-old-car in your previous analogy, you can upgrade the old-car into working condition, hell put even Nitrous-Oxide to put it into speed that can match the Ferrari, but if the Ferrari was similarly tweaked it will steal leave the old car behind. The point is that, the tweaked car is still pretty fast than it would be otherwise, when not tweaked.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2019 - 10:48 PM.






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