463 replies to this topic

[Marquis De Lafayette]

1. 1/2 the time people (generally a slow assault pilot) says to stop NASCARing or don’t NASCAR) it isn’t even really a nascar.....it’s an attempted pincer where your team’s fast lights are trying to get the flank or rear of the enemy. If you are asking the guys in piranhas or fleas to help hold a static line (with weak armor and short range) you are setting the team up for a likely defeat. Now, the guys in the slow assaults might end up dead if it fails or if the pincer is to slow developing or not aggressive enough in getting damage done. But, it’s not a NASCAR just because your fast lights left the slow assaults. If you bring a slow, bullet magnet assault....expect to have to use that massive armor and massive firepower to stay alive, as you will have the enemies attention. The top guys in this game who run those mechs in QP aren’t depending on their team for their survival.....they know what they need to do.

2. If PGI published a stat on “first blood win %” (whoever gets 1-0 lead) it would probably be over 66%. Meaning that the initial kill is a significant factor in victory. So, if you have skilled light pilots...let them do what they do and hopefully they can get that lead and maybe split up the rest of the other team. Best thing they can do is be a pain in the other teams backside. Now, if you have idiots for light pilots....well you are probably hosed as they are gonna get themselves killed for nothing, but that has nothing to do with NASCARing.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 13 January 2020 - 07:54 AM.

[Lykaon]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 13 January 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

1. it isn’t even really a nascar.....it’s an attempted pincer where your team’s fast lights are trying to get the flank or rear of the enemy.

Um...I don't think you know what a pincer movement is.

If you follow the general assumption that the team's big/slow mechs will be in the back and everything else will exstend outward from the slowest units you really have something like an accidental Denied flank action. But since the rest of the plan doesn't actually include leveraging the denied flank it's just a bunch of mindless tail chasing.

An actual pincer would be if by intent one team attempted to encircle the enemy. A true Pincer is a double envelopment move where both flanks of an enemy formation are attacked. NASCAR as it's executed in MWo is run at the enemy and then turn left shoot what you can see but keep turning left ignore all other variables LEFT ALWAYS LEFT!

[Lykaon]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 13 January 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

2. If PGI published a stat on “first blood win %” (whoever gets 1-0 lead) it would probably be over 66%. Meaning that the initial kill is a significant factor in victory. So, if you have skilled light pilots...let them do what they do and hopefully they can get that lead and maybe split up the rest of the other team. Best thing they can do is be a pain in the other teams backside. Now, if you have idiots for light pilots....well you are probably hosed as they are gonna get themselves killed for nothing, but that has nothing to do with NASCARing.

Here is the problem with assuming the light mechs are expected to fight as a static defense. It's a stupid assumption! The value of rapid response mechs is their capacity to respond rapidly (rapid as if in motion)

Assault mechs are very vulnerable to being attacked by skirmishing forces (frequently enemy light mechs) one of the better defenses against skirmishing lights sacking your assault mechs is your own light mechs.

So let's piece this all together.

You highest concentration of firepower is on the assault mechs. The Assaults are very vulnerable to being attacked by fast skirmishing mechs. A strong defense against this is rapid response defenders (your team's lights).

Standard NASCAR actions places your assaults unsupported in the rear and very very vulnerable to being over run by the enemy team's fastest mechs while by nature of NASCAR your teams mechs best suited to defend your team's assault mechs is furthest away from where they are needed most.

Now how do we really perform a Pincer ?

You MEDIUMS followed by HEAVY mechs vanguard the advance along the rotation. Your Assaults with light mech MOBILE support anchor to receive the enemy rotations vanguard. The enemy vanguard being composed of the enemy team's fastest units facing off against your teams heaviest hitting units supported by your team's fastest units. All the while the enemy team's assaults are being pressured by your team's medium mechs and heavy mechs from the tail end of the rotation.

Two flanks engaged at the same time. That is a real Pincer.

[K O Z A K]

It's not the job of light mechs to protect the slow mechs from enemy light mechs, that's one of the biggest misconceptions in this game. Light mechs should always be trying to find ways to kill the enemy big mechs. To fight lights correctly all of the non light mechs on your team need to be mindful of where all the other non light mechs on their team are, and usually all friendly mechs should have at least 2-3 friendlies able to shoot lights trying to backstab them. But because everyone in qp is a selfish ******* nobody cares to cover friendlies and all people can do is run right and turn left

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2020 - 12:04 PM, said:

Here is the problem with assuming the light mechs are expected to fight as a static defense. It's a stupid assumption! The value of rapid response mechs is their capacity to respond rapidly (rapid as if in motion)

Assault mechs are very vulnerable to being attacked by skirmishing forces (frequently enemy light mechs) one of the better defenses against skirmishing lights sacking your assault mechs is your own light mechs.

So let's piece this all together.

You highest concentration of firepower is on the assault mechs. The Assaults are very vulnerable to being attacked by fast skirmishing mechs. A strong defense against this is rapid response defenders (your team's lights).

Standard NASCAR actions places your assaults unsupported in the rear and very very vulnerable to being over run by the enemy team's fastest mechs while by nature of NASCAR your teams mechs best suited to defend your team's assault mechs is furthest away from where they are needed most.

Now how do we really perform a Pincer ?

You MEDIUMS followed by HEAVY mechs vanguard the advance along the rotation. Your Assaults with light mech MOBILE support anchor to receive the enemy rotations vanguard. The enemy vanguard being composed of the enemy team's fastest units facing off against your teams heaviest hitting units supported by your team's fastest units. All the while the enemy team's assaults are being pressured by your team's medium mechs and heavy mechs from the tail end of the rotation.

Two flanks engaged at the same time. That is a real Pincer.

You are kind of making my point. Poorly piloted assaults are very vulnerable to lights. If your teams lights can get one or two of the other team’s assaults off the field early it’s going to put your team at a major advantage. Capable assault pilots know how to look out for themselves in that they know their QP teammates are unreliable and thus those pilots have adapted. If you can kill the other teams assaults before they kill yours, well you are probably going to win. Which is why you will continue to see aggressive light piloting continue....and no it isn’t always NASCARING to do this (not necessarily saying this is what you mean by nascar)

However, you want to exactly state it....having an enemy teams assaults and heavies attacking your front and their lights attacking your 6’o clock is putting ones team in a bad spot. I just lost a match where we were up 6-5 and things looked under control and 2 enemy lights appeared behind us and we got quickly sandwiched and lost 12-7.

Aggression and pressing the action is more sound this game. Which is why we don’t see the top light pilots hanging around their teams assaults....they are going to go and kill stuff early.

[RickySpanish]

Hazeclaw, on 13 January 2020 - 12:59 PM, said:

It's not the job of light mechs to protect the slow mechs from enemy light mechs, that's one of the biggest misconceptions in this game. Light mechs should always be trying to find ways to kill the enemy big mechs. To fight lights correctly all of the non light mechs on your team need to be mindful of where all the other non light mechs on their team are, and usually all friendly mechs should have at least 2-3 friendlies able to shoot lights trying to backstab them. But because everyone in qp is a selfish ******* nobody cares to cover friendlies and all people can do is run right and turn left

It's good to protect your Assaults early on though, because people do just ********** to the centre most of the time. I started doing that in my Grinner when nobody in Charlie has ECM, I reckon it won us both games I played recently because each time Charlie crossed into the map from their spawn zone without getting molested. Once they're in though, there's no need to baby sit them.

[MischiefSC]

RickySpanish, on 13 January 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

It's good to protect your Assaults early on though, because people do just ********** to the centre most of the time. I started doing that in my Grinner when nobody in Charlie has ECM, I reckon it won us both games I played recently because each time Charlie crossed into the map from their spawn zone without getting molested. Once they're in though, there's no need to baby sit them.

Your assaults are not protected by your lights though. They're protected by the other mechs of around their same combat profile. If you're 2 lights and 10 mediums-assaults, the other 9 guys are who protects your assault. If the assault can keep up and is useful. If your assault is not keeping up then it would be utter stupidity to throw away the mobility and positioning potential of 9 mechs to cover 1 mech in a bad position.

If someone takes a slow assault and can't keep up or stay within mutual support distance of their team, that's them being bad and making bad choices. If someones mech build is based on the rest of the team having to baby sit them and throw away their ideal positioning, any advantages their mobility choices bring and their ideal engagement range in the HOPE that this one guy in this one assault will totally carry the match for them if they fight the whole thing in an inferior position than what they were picking.... that's a bad build.

The leaderboard indicates that you'll win more matches in the Grinner by killing, crippling or tying up multiple enemy assaults in your Grinner than by throwing away all the early match productivity you could be doing babysitting people who made poor build choices. If nothing else they should be getting watched over by a brawly medium or two, ATM Veagle or even better streak Huntsman and the like. Something that isn't going to be doing work at 1k anyway and catching out an over eager light or two early game is right up their alley.

Lights, ideally, are punching way above their tonnage and either killing or at least tying up 5-10x their weight and firepower so their teammates are in a better trading position. Outside of fighting over cap points light v light isn't a good use of light mechs.

[Prototelis]

Light are the worst performing, lowest scoring, least played class in the game.

Most don't even punch at their own weight.

[MischiefSC]

Prototelis, on 10 January 2020 - 01:20 AM, said:

Nascar works every time.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time.

Okay. So you're changing your wording a bit and effectively now saying just that nascar works every time, in the context of when both teams nascar than the match is a nascar every time both teams nascar.... so if you do something, you did it.

Nascar does not have a 100% success rate as success in a MWO match is a win. Nor does it even always turn into a nascar when both t4eams rotate; sometimes one team stops and holds, breaking the nascar.

OZHomerOZ, on 13 January 2020 - 01:55 AM, said:

I disagree

It is the players the vast majority of the time. (Unless Skill gap is low)

And what determines what team does it better?

The Players and their skill sets

Good Nascar Players are good at reading the battle via mini map and even in the first 15 seconds can determine with reasonable accuracy the home teams quality. aka positioning and pathing

Edit: If you don't know the way follow the better players, and remember the ways they go on each map and game mode, its how I learnt, not from some forum warriors with a sub one kill death ratio.
Its how I learnt, my guides were the EMP lads, you can't get better teachers.
Though any reliable performers who happen to be online will do.

Thats why the Fafnir or Annie is leading your nascar. True Story

Most maps are played a certain way according to game mode, so you can kinda tell when the teams scattered to the four winds and about to drip feed the enemy easy kills.

Logic is if the team is bad get kills asap
Which means you gotta go fast and leave the bad positioning and pathing (and late start) players to fend for them selves while you get kills asap they are not getting.
After all its a numbers game and an early kill lead can make up for a weak team.

When the mini map tells you the team is good - Support with focus fire and get kills asap. NASCAR if it gives your a kill advantage via quick kills which in today's QP enviroment with todays skillgap is pretty often.

If you can't read the battle that good on your mini map, others can and their W/L ratio which BTW is the only Stat ratio worth padding shows this.

This is very true.

Because the skill gap in MWO is so big (the skill curve is more like a skill mesa) the reality is that the good players who drive consistent wins are out and hustling every match. Get the good position, get the early kills on the enemy bads, get the good hits in early so the enemy team starts to fall apart faster. Those super slow, bad positioned, late start players are always dead weight. They are in the position they're in because they are bad. I had a day in QP where one of the top 0.01% players was in like 7 out of 10 matches I played in and he was in an AC40 Anni. He was *never* in the back and generally still had good positioning and carried like a MF every match. That's reality right there. A good player can always take care of themselves. Sure, it's great if you're helping them but they're going to contribute regardless.

The people who need protected need that help because they're making bad choices. Pinning expectations on them to carry is bad. You're better off sticking with the good players who hustle and helping them. They're who wins the match.

[Prototelis]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2020 - 09:58 AM, said:

Nascar does not have a 100% success rate

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar has a 100% success rate.

[MischiefSC]

Prototelis, on 14 January 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar has a 100% success rate.

Already touched on 100% success rate. That's not how statistics works nor the use of those terms but you're repeating them a lot like they're true, so, well, good luck with that. No, Nascar does not have a 100% success rate. It would only have a 100% success rate if all 24 players were on the same side and had initiated nascar with a goal of 12 of them planning to lose and 12 of them planning to win and the 12 planning to win always won and the 12 planning to lose always lose. Nascar is not an entity - it is a behavior both teams of 12 engage in with the hope of winning. As such 12 players fail to accomplish their goal in using Nascar, so for them Nascar failed. 12 succeeded, so for them Nascar won. The success of Nascar has to be calculated from the position of the users.

Sort of like the analogy I used before. Everyone using PKRBs used them with the explicit goal and expectation of flying. That's the assumption being tested by the analysis. 12 failed the assumed goal, 12 succeeded. Nascar has a 50% success rate. There is no statistical basis for saying 'Every time I do a thing, I do a thing' because that's a truism. Trying to move the goal post for what success means to be 'every time a team Nascars, they Nascar' to mean 'Nascar is 100% successful' is poopy and nobody should be fooled.

[RickySpanish]

Prototelis, on 14 January 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

Light are the worst performing, lowest scoring, least played class in the game.

Most don't even punch at their own weight.

I had a theory in a previous thread, that Lights aren't actually all that scarey to pilot, it's just that there is a moderate skill ceiling to clear and at that point they suddenly become very good. My reasoning was that most Light pilots are awful, so if you are simply "moderately good" then the greatest skill difference in the team you can make is by piloting a Light. Unfortunately I don't get the chance to play many games, but I am certainly doing better in my Grinner than in previous seasons with my VGLs. My match score is lower, but the difference between my damage/kills compared to the rest of Alpha lance is greater and I have a better win rate. I imagine with more games it will even out a little but even with this few played it looks like actually, because Light 'Mechs are "so bad", they're actually quite good!

Edited by RickySpanish, 15 January 2020 - 07:49 PM.

[Leone]

Prototelis, on 14 January 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar has a 100% success rate.

That's, uhh, a 50% success rate, since you know, one team wins and one loses.

~Leone.

[RickySpanish]

Leone, on 15 January 2020 - 09:38 PM, said:

That's, uhh, a 50% success rate, since you know, one team wins and one loses.

~Leone.

And yet in every game where Nascar happens, one of the teams will win. Ergo Nascar leads to victory 100% of the time. I don't understand how people are getting hung up on this. It's clearly the correct strategy.

[Prototelis]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2020 - 06:50 PM, said:

Already touched on 100% success rate.

Thats cool. You were wrong.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will win, nascar works 100% of the time.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

you guys are 'kinda' repeating yourself ..






if it were at the very least the classic dead parrot sketch, but no..

[Prototelis]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 16 January 2020 - 03:53 AM, said:

you guys are 'kinda' repeating yourself ..

It's a closed loop, thats how those work.

You know, like a Massive swedish Hard-ON Collider.

Edited by Prototelis, 16 January 2020 - 05:38 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Prototelis, on 16 January 2020 - 02:24 AM, said:

Thats cool. You were wrong.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will win, nascar works 100% of the time.

So are there two teams? Yes or no.

Both teams are Nascaring? Yes or no.

Because percentages for statistics are pretty simple. Success rate divided by trials, times 100. Each team is a trial. So you've got 2 trials in each match. One wins, one loses.

At this point going to go with you just being dense for giggles. If you're not, please reach out to a match teacher or just use the googles.

[Quandoo]

Lights protect assaults because lights should start fights when mechs are almost broken, not before. Don't try to crack armor. At least if you want to see high dmg and credit numbers as light.

Dont even consider rushing ahead as light without skilled ECM. With ECM watch the sky for lurms and follow, they show you the free kill.

Edited by Quandoo, 16 January 2020 - 11:40 AM.

[Kodyn]

Lights protecting assaults is one of the oldest running, and most irritating misconceptions in MWO...

Lights aren't fast so they can hang around moving slow, they're fast so they can be independent and reactionary when needed. Brawler/Light-killer mediums like streak-boats or pulse vomit are geared towards that end, as are many heavies. In fact just about anything can and should be able to kill a light, including assaults, if you know how to drive them properly. When you can take out all or most of a light's leg armor in one alpha, your lack of aim is no excuse for needing protection. If you truly need it, it's not the lights who should be providing it.

I truly think the main reason so many assaults are so bad at dealing with lights is the pilots panic. A light is up in their personal space, and rather than treating it as any other target and aiming for the proper spots, they panic, spaz around missing and then blame lag shield and the team for failing to babysit. Yes lights can be difficult to kill, yes they do tend to spread damage well. Invincible they are not, and when you don't panic, aim correctly, they're easy to dispatch. If you can't hit opened components or it's a very fast light, legs are near impossible to miss, and lights can't take very many leg shots before they're toast, or even just scared off once they realize where you're aiming.