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#121 Nightbird

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:53 AM

lol this thread is still going

if you don't like NASCAR, don' play Quick Play, the NASCAR mode, play FP

When you have a hammer, and choose to hit yourself in the head with it instead of the nail, it is not the hammer's fault. It's you

#122 Hazeclaw

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:03 PM

I'd like to futher explore the subject of whether nascar works 100% of the time or 50% of the time

#123 Prototelis

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:05 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 16 January 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

So are there two teams? Yes or no.



Yes

Quote

Both teams are Nascaring? Yes or no.



It takes two teams to nascar. It isn't a nascar unless both teams are attempting to rotate behind each other.

One team will lose, Nascar works every time.

#124 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:12 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 16 January 2020 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yes



It takes two teams to nascar. It isn't a nascar unless both teams are attempting to rotate behind each other.

One team will lose, Nascar works every time.


Ah, but what if the win occurs not as a direct result of the nascar itself, but because the losing side were all on one coast and that coast slid into the ocean? Or because one side decided to simultaneously fire into each other's legs, while still nascaring? Just because nascar is occurring, doesn't mean it's always 100% of the time the cause of the win, or "working". I think I broke the loop.

#125 RickySpanish

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 07:27 PM

View PostKodyn, on 16 January 2020 - 02:12 PM, said:


Ah, but what if the win occurs not as a direct result of the nascar itself, but because the losing side were all on one coast and that coast slid into the ocean? Or because one side decided to simultaneously fire into each other's legs, while still nascaring? Just because nascar is occurring, doesn't mean it's always 100% of the time the cause of the win, or "working". I think I broke the loop.


Yeah but such silly actions are a result of constantly turning left, which puts pressure on the right side of the brain. Ergo Nascar contributed to the outcome in a significant way.

#126 Prototelis

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 07:13 AM

^ Straight up example of nascar working in both posts.

#127 w4ldO

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 07:40 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 16 January 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

I'd like to futher explore the subject of whether nascar works 100% of the time or 50% of the time

nascar works 60% of the time. all the time.

#128 Lykaon

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 06:58 PM

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 13 January 2020 - 01:07 PM, said:

You are kind of making my point. Poorly piloted assaults are very vulnerable to lights. If your teams lights can get one or two of the other team’s assaults off the field early it’s going to put your team at a major advantage. Capable assault pilots know how to look out for themselves in that they know their QP teammates are unreliable and thus those pilots have adapted. If you can kill the other teams assaults before they kill yours, well you are probably going to win. Which is why you will continue to see aggressive light piloting continue....and no it isn’t always NASCARING to do this (not necessarily saying this is what you mean by nascar)

However, you want to exactly state it....having an enemy teams assaults and heavies attacking your front and their lights attacking your 6’o clock is putting ones team in a bad spot. I just lost a match where we were up 6-5 and things looked under control and 2 enemy lights appeared behind us and we got quickly sandwiched and lost 12-7.

Aggression and pressing the action is more sound this game. Which is why we don’t see the top light pilots hanging around their teams assaults....they are going to go and kill stuff early.


"poorly piloted" and "top light pilots" are qualifiers that do not apply to a generalized outline of a tactic.

We can hand pick scenarios forever and a day to prove points but ultimately here is what you said basically.

Assume your team's assault pilots are good enough to fend for themselves.

Assume your team's light pilots are "top light pilots" and capable of defeating the enemy assaults.

And this is a smart idea because both your assaults and lights are operating without support. The assaults are suppose to fend for themselves and the lights are suppose to win an encounter with whatever they run across.

Meanwhile you heavy and medium mechs turn left an shoot.(provided there are targets present to actually shoot at)

All of this is done without a single thought as to IF THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.

That is essentially NASCAR.

#129 Lykaon

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:03 PM

Here is a general strategic quiz.

There are two stable owners who race horses.

Each stable owners has formed their horses up into three groups.

Group one is the slowest horses.
Group two is the average speed horses.
Group three is made up of the fastest horses.

Now if you are one of these stable owners what groups of your own horses do you compete against each of the opposing stable's horse groups in order to win the most races?

Edited by Lykaon, 19 January 2020 - 07:04 PM.


#130 Hazeclaw

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:15 PM

View PostLykaon, on 19 January 2020 - 07:03 PM, said:

Here is a general strategic quiz.

There are two stable owners who race horses.

Each stable owners has formed their horses up into three groups.

Group one is the slowest horses.
Group two is the average speed horses.
Group three is made up of the fastest horses.

Now if you are one of these stable owners what groups of your own horses do you compete against each of the opposing stable's horse groups in order to win the most races?


so qp is a racing game?

#131 Lykaon

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:29 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 19 January 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:


so qp is a racing game?


Nope but figuring out the best way to win more may help and this is a very basic test of cognitive capacity to even think strategically.



P.S. isn't MWo tagged as a "race game" on Steam?....so um...maybe?

#132 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 09:54 PM

View PostLykaon, on 19 January 2020 - 06:58 PM, said:


"poorly piloted" and "top light pilots" are qualifiers that do not apply to a generalized outline of a tactic.

We can hand pick scenarios forever and a day to prove points but ultimately here is what you said basically.

Assume your team's assault pilots are good enough to fend for themselves.

Assume your team's light pilots are "top light pilots" and capable of defeating the enemy assaults.

And this is a smart idea because both your assaults and lights are operating without support. The assaults are suppose to fend for themselves and the lights are suppose to win an encounter with whatever they run across.

Meanwhile you heavy and medium mechs turn left an shoot.(provided there are targets present to actually shoot at)

All of this is done without a single thought as to IF THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.

That is essentially NASCAR.


Not exactly, I believe that assault pilots fall into two distinct groups. Ones that know what to do and can take care of themselves and ones who don’t. The ones that can take care of themselves don’t need lights to cover them and the ones that need lights aren’t talented enough to produce much for the team anyway. So, if they get killed because they get to far away from the group I shed no tears for them. They messed up. When I am running a an assault, I am fine if I see a light trying to mess with me, as I have something for him if he gets cute and if I get caught out away from the team it’s because I stopped paying attention to the battlegrid. My bad...not the teams fault.

Similarly, I think light pilots fall into similar camps. Ones that are good with lights, who need to go get busy making life miserable for the other team, by harassing them and light pilots who are useless and won’t break 200 damage. Such pilots won’t be of much help in winning the match no matter what they do. A bad light pilot protecting your team’s assaults won’t keep them safe anyway. When I am running a fast light I am going to try to get the first kill or two of the game immediately....if I can find some poor sap to pick on, which I often can. I am going to try to put my team ahead immediately as that will give us a better chance to win, but I am smart enough to not make a habit of getting myself killed early.

The safest place for the assaults is with the group (other assaults and heavies generally). A bunch of assaults and heavies staying together will generally well deter lights that are trying to backstab. When I am running heavies, I am glad to try to help keep my assault buddies free from pesky lights. I want them fresh for the main engagement. So, it’s not that you should never look out for teammates in QP....it’s just that assaults and heavies tend to move together (especially if they deathballing, or NASCARING) and thus they are the ones that should look out for each other. If one mech get isolated because of his choice, there is nothing to do about that.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 19 January 2020 - 09:56 PM.


#133 Lykaon

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 10:12 PM

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 19 January 2020 - 09:54 PM, said:

If one mech get isolated because of his choice, there is nothing to do about that.



Do you mean they made a choice to have all their team mates tear off at best speed leaving them or they made a choice to pilot a mech that isn't fast enough to keep close as the team tears off at best speed?

Because both involve a team not making a choice based upon what would best serve a cohesive plan because the only plan is ....

Tear off at best speed!

With that being said with NASCAR being an oh so popular erm...tactic? why don't we just come out and say it.

Only ever pilot a Madcat MKII B You can easily build a sustained damage throwing monster that is fast enough to keep pace with the plan of "Tear off at best speed" .

Ignore anything that can't break 60 kph and pack quad autocannons.

Edited by Lykaon, 19 January 2020 - 10:29 PM.


#134 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 06:03 AM

View PostLykaon, on 19 January 2020 - 10:12 PM, said:



Do you mean they made a choice to have all their team mates tear off at best speed leaving them or they made a choice to pilot a mech that isn't fast enough to keep close as the team tears off at best speed?

Because both involve a team not making a choice based upon what would best serve a cohesive plan because the only plan is ....

Tear off at best speed!

With that being said with NASCAR being an oh so popular erm...tactic? why don't we just come out and say it.

Only ever pilot a Madcat MKII B You can easily build a sustained damage throwing monster that is fast enough to keep pace with the plan of "Tear off at best speed" .

Ignore anything that can't break 60 kph and pack quad autocannons.


I run fafnirs and other slow assaults as much as I run madcat II-b’s in QP. Whatever I am in, if I get isolated it’s my fault. As if I know I am slow, I need to make extra-sure I watch my mini-map and stay on W (taking advantage of whatever shortcuts....cutting cross the top on HPG, etc) to stay with or be in front (which is best if I am direct fire, so I can get that damage in) of any rotation the team might be doing. Yes, faster assaults are easier to do this in. But you can do it in a 48 kph mech, without help. Again, not every game has even 1 team attempt to NASCAR.
Often your teams lights might run off but the majority of your heavies and assaults either hold ground or do something like taking the top on HPG. In those situations the thing that’s crazy to me is how many people seem to think because the lights rotated to find an enemy straggler (which is often a great idea) that the team is trying to nascar, when it often clearly isn’t.....it’s just the lights doing what lights are supposed to do. NASCAR happens (not every match) , it works sometimes (not always) and if you are in a slow assault you just need to see it forming (on your mini-map) and take appropriate action to not get left behind (not hard to do). If you do get left behind....just learn from your mistakes in not seeing it or not being close enough to the front to keep up and do better next time. Far more healthy than the salty threads people start on the subject.

#135 Lykaon

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 09:10 AM

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 20 January 2020 - 06:03 AM, said:

I run fafnirs and other slow assaults as much as I run madcat II-b’s in QP. Whatever I am in, if I get isolated it’s my fault. As if I know I am slow, I need to make extra-sure I watch my mini-map and stay on W (taking advantage of whatever shortcuts....cutting cross the top on HPG, etc) to stay with or be in front (which is best if I am direct fire, so I can get that damage in) of any rotation the team might be doing. Yes, faster assaults are easier to do this in. But you can do it in a 48 kph mech, without help. Again, not every game has even 1 team attempt to NASCAR.
Often your teams lights might run off but the majority of your heavies and assaults either hold ground or do something like taking the top on HPG. In those situations the thing that’s crazy to me is how many people seem to think because the lights rotated to find an enemy straggler (which is often a great idea) that the team is trying to nascar, when it often clearly isn’t.....it’s just the lights doing what lights are supposed to do. NASCAR happens (not every match) , it works sometimes (not always) and if you are in a slow assault you just need to see it forming (on your mini-map) and take appropriate action to not get left behind (not hard to do). If you do get left behind....just learn from your mistakes in not seeing it or not being close enough to the front to keep up and do better next time. Far more healthy than the salty threads people start on the subject.


I agree that you and I can keep pace and that in theory players in general can but, it seems that having the capacity to pay attention is a superpower that many if not most lack.

I have in the past piloted a Direwolf through canyon network (NASCAR) and could be on the front of the rotation but at the same time I had a team mate in a Blood Asp crying about NASCAR and getting taken out doing sub 200 damage.

I agree it can be done with any assault mech (save perhaps a stock Annihilator). An assault mech should be capable of keeping pace. I have done it I totally believe you can do it but (and here is the point) quickplay gives us a random group of team mates with (and let's face facts here) a random set of skill levels.

When players without a thought to the capabilities of their team mates or the functionality of their team mate's mech builds decide to tear off at best speed,turn left,repeat....well this isn't planning it's a simple reaction to being on a certain map. It's an even greater error if your team mates out right say "don't NASCAR" because they are essentially saying "I am not good enough to keep up in the mech I am using " or " My mech isn't good at NASCAR" at this point you have been given feedback that NASCAR is not a cohesive plan because some of your team has OUTRIGHT SAID SO.

Yet it happens anyhow.

AND... Do I hate it when I see my team's light mechs peel off and then watch practically everyone try to follow them. LET THEM GO! they have a job to do and that job REQUIRES speed your mechs do not have! if you wanted to be included in a light mech skirmish PILOT a LIGHT MECH! don't chase them with your 60ish KPH mech of the line.

So yeah we also agree that light mechs should frequently be performing a lightning strike attack (oddly enough light mechs are actually assaulting while assault mechs are ancoring...always found that funny)

When players do tear off an follow the light mechs without a thought as to what the lights need to do or if their own mechs can contribute to the light mech objective are also not planning they are reacting to stimuli. They see their team move they pursue.

Reacting to stimuli is not the same as executing a plan. Bacteria do not plan they do react to stimuli.

Boys and girls...don't be bacteria.

#136 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 11:35 AM

View PostLykaon, on 20 January 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:


I agree that you and I can keep pace and that in theory players in general can but, it seems that having the capacity to pay attention is a superpower that many if not most lack.

I have in the past piloted a Direwolf through canyon network (NASCAR) and could be on the front of the rotation but at the same time I had a team mate in a Blood Asp crying about NASCAR and getting taken out doing sub 200 damage.

I agree it can be done with any assault mech (save perhaps a stock Annihilator). An assault mech should be capable of keeping pace. I have done it I totally believe you can do it but (and here is the point) quickplay gives us a random group of team mates with (and let's face facts here) a random set of skill levels.

When players without a thought to the capabilities of their team mates or the functionality of their team mate's mech builds decide to tear off at best speed,turn left,repeat....well this isn't planning it's a simple reaction to being on a certain map. It's an even greater error if your team mates out right say "don't NASCAR" because they are essentially saying "I am not good enough to keep up in the mech I am using " or " My mech isn't good at NASCAR" at this point you have been given feedback that NASCAR is not a cohesive plan because some of your team has OUTRIGHT SAID SO.

Yet it happens anyhow.

AND... Do I hate it when I see my team's light mechs peel off and then watch practically everyone try to follow them. LET THEM GO! they have a job to do and that job REQUIRES speed your mechs do not have! if you wanted to be included in a light mech skirmish PILOT a LIGHT MECH! don't chase them with your 60ish KPH mech of the line.

So yeah we also agree that light mechs should frequently be performing a lightning strike attack (oddly enough light mechs are actually assaulting while assault mechs are ancoring...always found that funny)

When players do tear off an follow the light mechs without a thought as to what the lights need to do or if their own mechs can contribute to the light mech objective are also not planning they are reacting to stimuli. They see their team move they pursue.

Reacting to stimuli is not the same as executing a plan. Bacteria do not plan they do react to stimuli.

Boys and girls...don't be bacteria.


I think the one element you are missing (as you do recognize many of the same things I do) is that in QP your teammates aren’t to be counted on. I hate to say it, but QP is QP and if you want teammates looking out for one another you need to get in a group and drop FW with people you trust. In QP the one thing you can do to improve your chance of winning is run your build to the best of your ability and your mechs loadout. The guys who can’t figure out how to not get ganked by lights in matches aren’t going to do much to help you win anyway, so don’t worry about “saving them” usually an attempt to save an isolated mech results in more lost mechs and a quick loss. I know we all want this to be a team effort, but most tier 1 pilots are still marginal in knowing what to do in matches. The teammates you do have that are competent will not generally get themselves in trouble early (though even they will make mistakes) and will hopefully take out more enemy mechs than your incompetent teammates lose. Of course after your incompetent teammates go down like punks they will spamming the comms about how trash the team is. Just ignore it and do the work you need to do in what you have. If your QP team exhibits any level of cooperation and coordination, just consider it a nice surprise.....don’t go into matches expecting it

#137 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 11:42 AM

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 20 January 2020 - 11:35 AM, said:

I think the one element you are missing (as you do recognize many of the same things I do) is that in QP your teammates aren’t to be counted on. I hate to say it, but QP is QP and if you want teammates looking out for one another you need to get in a group and drop FW with people you trust. In QP the one thing you can do to improve your chance of winning is run your build to the best of your ability and your mechs loadout. The guys who can’t figure out how to not get ganked by lights in matches aren’t going to do much to help you win anyway, so don’t worry about “saving them” usually an attempt to save an isolated mech results in more lost mechs and a quick loss. I know we all want this to be a team effort, but most tier 1 pilots are still marginal in knowing what to do in matches. The teammates you do have that are competent will not generally get themselves in trouble early (though even they will make mistakes) and will hopefully take out more enemy mechs than your incompetent teammates lose. Of course after your incompetent teammates go down like punks they will spamming the comms about how trash the team is. Just ignore it and do the work you need to do in what you have. If your QP team exhibits any level of cooperation and coordination, just consider it a nice surprise.....don’t go into matches expecting it


^
sad but true.


https://youtu.be/A8MO7fkZc5o

#138 Lykaon

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 01:46 PM

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 20 January 2020 - 11:35 AM, said:

I think the one element you are missing (as you do recognize many of the same things I do) is that in QP your teammates aren’t to be counted on. I hate to say it, but QP is QP and if you want teammates looking out for one another you need to get in a group and drop FW with people you trust. In QP the one thing you can do to improve your chance of winning is run your build to the best of your ability and your mechs loadout. The guys who can’t figure out how to not get ganked by lights in matches aren’t going to do much to help you win anyway, so don’t worry about “saving them” usually an attempt to save an isolated mech results in more lost mechs and a quick loss. I know we all want this to be a team effort, but most tier 1 pilots are still marginal in knowing what to do in matches. The teammates you do have that are competent will not generally get themselves in trouble early (though even they will make mistakes) and will hopefully take out more enemy mechs than your incompetent teammates lose. Of course after your incompetent teammates go down like punks they will spamming the comms about how trash the team is. Just ignore it and do the work you need to do in what you have. If your QP team exhibits any level of cooperation and coordination, just consider it a nice surprise.....don’t go into matches expecting it


Well I can see another important difference in our view points. When I first started with MWo (back in closed beta) the prevailing culture I was exposed to wasn't an "every man for themselves" but a culture of responsibility to your team mates and fellow players.

If you are good teach if you are not good yet then learn.

I participated in many early exercises where the players would group up on teamspeak and discuss strategy mech builds maps whatever. We would test new ideas practice the implimentation of new ideas and the most important part, show others what works and why.

I know there are plenty of options as to what strategy can be used on a given map and what tactics are potent in certain places/circumstances or opportunities. I can see early on in a match if the team is likely to win. I havn't actually taken time to record how frequent my predictions are but I would not be supprised if they were in excess of 70%.

That is a large part of what makes MWo these days somewhat tedious to me. Thinking and cooperating to create a tactical or strategic solution just does not happen not even in groups and very rarely in faction play. It's just variations of "every man for themselves" in the group queue it was "every group for themselves" Solo queue is literally armies of one and many of those armies are led by incompitence.

There only so many matches I can play where I warn my team of the predictable movements of the enemy only to be right and ignored and watch my team fold because solos are all experts and know what is best for them.

There are only so many times I can take mentioning the Echo line gap on Tourmaline and how most of the time the enemy will press that flank only to watch the enemy succeed at pressing through the gap I just mentioned to be aware of the enemy's intent on pressing through because no one listens.

You can literally tell your team exactaly what the enemy team is doing and how to stop the enemy team from doing it and still have a "team" of solos screw up a free lunch.

Why? It's because the early culture of cooperation was slowly eroded from neglect and replaced with development hours being thrown to the pug life.The very players who do not know how to cooperate now dictate the terms of how to play a cooperative game.

Ironic actually.

So why do "we" NASCAR? because mindless reactions to stimuli is the exstent of cooperation the solo players as a collective entity can muster.

Why do teams fold match after match after match to the same manuverings? because the collective solo does not learn and can not be taught.

After the umpteenth time I reccommend not going into a crap possition on a map only to watch the collective solo reactionionary movements go there because it's just what the collective solo mind does...well I just get bored of watching reactionary movement replace cognitive reason.

Until we can all remember how to play as thinking being and communicate and cooperate the best we can hope for is to join the swarm of reactionary mindless repetition.

Games are rarely won by skill these days victory goes to the collective solo swarm that sucked the least.

#139 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 02:05 PM

Lykaon..

(Not quoting as what you wrote is long and I don’t want to belabor things)

We can only play the game as it is....not as we wish it to be. I get your frustrations, but the game is what is it is and probably isn’t going to change. The easiest thing is to change ones own expectations and enjoy the game as much as you can for as long as it lasts.
Best regards to you and see you on the battlefield.

#140 MischiefSC

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 10:16 AM

The crux of the issue is that doing something other than nascar means a consensus on your team about where the best place to go is, and what to do when you get there. The vast bulk of the games population has no clue about positioning, where to go or what to do on any given map. A lot of terrible ideas - a lot of bad strategies. 'This worked this one time in band camp so it's what we should always do' is as close as most people ever get.

So in the absence of 10 of 12 people on any team having even a small clue about what to do, everyone just does the Nascar. If you want to not do Nascar you need a team full of people who knows something else to do that works and is willing to do it together. Most the people who are even able to squeeze under that painfully low bar are probably in FW and not QP.

Hands down, no question I could probably break a 2.0 W/L if I could play QP with 11 bots from MW5. They'll take the good builds I give them, go where I tell them and for all the complaints will still perform more reliably and make smarter choices on average in any given situation than the bulk of the MWO playerbase.

That's why you play nascar and will always play nascar.





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