463 replies to this topic

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2020 - 10:16 AM, said:

The crux of the issue is that doing something other than nascar means a consensus on your team about where the best place to go is, and what to do when you get there. The vast bulk of the games population has no clue about positioning, where to go or what to do on any given map. A lot of terrible ideas - a lot of bad strategies. 'This worked this one time in band camp so it's what we should always do' is as close as most people ever get.

Always putting people down for gameplay instead of putting the blame where it actually lies.
Small bad maps that leave you few opportunities for tactical play with basically no community tools to foster team play.

[Prototelis]

Uhm, you should try faction.

There are tons of tactical ways to play the maps.

You just don't see it in QP because the games are short, and what actually is happening is big engine stomp meta.

Edited by Prototelis, 22 January 2020 - 08:28 PM.

[Mech Walesa]

why whould you ever want 11 back stabbers in your team?

[Jman5]

N0MAD, on 22 January 2020 - 07:11 PM, said:

Always putting people down for gameplay instead of putting the blame where it actually lies.
Small bad maps that leave you few opportunities for tactical play with basically no community tools to foster team play.

Bigger maps by themselves wouldn't help. We have maps of various sizes and the only real difference is that it extends the time we spend walking to the fight.

If you want MWO to play differently you have to do two things:

1. Break apart the deathball by forcing teams to defend/attack multiple points simultaneously.

2. Extend the length of an average match to give more time for tactical maneuvering.

Regarding the second point, I have no idea how you could do that without some sort of respawn or repair stations. You can drill a mech down to dust pretty quickly.

[Gristle Missile]

Prototelis, on 16 January 2020 - 02:24 AM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will win, nascar works 100% of the time.

I object to this assertion
It seems you have an arbitrary definition of the MWO term of nascar

I can just as easily assert that it only takes one team to nascar, one team will win, nascar does not always work.

Lets say one team does the Nascar rotation, the other team stands in place and they win. (Common to see in HPG when one team nascars for multiple laps around the bottom while the other team holds the top area)

How can you make the claim that it takes two teams to Nascar? In official "NASCAR", every vehicle is on a separate team, so your definition can't be a reference to the rules of that sport.
Furthermore, how many mechs for either team need to be in rotation for it to count as nascar? 90%? 80%? 50%? What if some assualts stop and turn around to fight? are they no longer considered to be nascaring? How does this influence the status of their team as "nascaring" or not?

Can you see how the term nascar has a loose definition and to state that both teams have to do it, and how it "always works" is a fallacy

Edited by Gristle Missile, 23 January 2020 - 11:25 AM.

[Prototelis]

Gristle Missile, on 23 January 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

I can just as easily assert that it only takes one team to nascar, one team will win, nascar does not always work.

No, it cannot. Because it takes two teams to nascar (nascar is only taking place when both teams are attempting to rotate in on each other anything else is not nascar.), one team will lose, Nascar works every time.

Edited by Prototelis, 23 January 2020 - 11:25 AM.

[Gristle Missile]

Prototelis, on 23 January 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

No, it cannot. Because it takes two teams to nascar (nascar is only taking place when both teams are attempting to rotate in on each other anything else is not nascar.), one team will lose, Nascar works every time.

you only quoted part of my post and didn't respond to any of my challenges to your assertion
If we hope to have any sort of meaningful discussion, you will have to provide more than a childish "nu uh" as a response

[Prototelis]

Because your entire post was based on the premise that a single team can nascar. That is false. Nascar, in the context of MWO, does not have a loose definition.

It takes TWO teams to nascar, one team will win, Nascar always works.

Edited by Prototelis, 23 January 2020 - 11:59 AM.

[Gristle Missile]

Are you going to support that with arguments and evidence? or just continue to defend it because its the only way your spammy joke works



If you just continue to say your arbitrary definition is correct then we can dismiss your posts as attention seeking

[Prototelis]

Defend what?

That it takes two teams to nascar? It literally does lol.

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 22 January 2020 - 07:11 PM, said:

Always putting people down for gameplay instead of putting the blame where it actually lies.
Small bad maps that leave you few opportunities for tactical play with basically no community tools to foster team play.

Did you know every season of comp play, MRBC, RHOD, Midway, etc. all use the same maps?

Without question there are a wide variety of other strategies and approaches to every single map.

The problem is the players. Sure, map design with a single central obstruction doesn't help but people nascar on Alpine and Polar too.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Brom96, on 05 January 2020 - 11:33 PM, said:

Nascar exists solely because people cannot understand the term flanking. You can flank with light mechs, no problem. You need them and mediums, that's their job. But, in flanking you need a base around which you move, a fulcrum. That base are your slow movers, whichever class they are. They engage and hold the enemy. Once you flank and disturb the enemy formation, making them turn, die or scatter, your base advances.

That is the theory.

In practice, when the rest of team sees you flank the enemy in centurion or urbie, the move away from a good firing position, trying to follow you even if they are 30-80 kph slower then you. When they realize what is going on (and good luck having an enemy team that has intelligence of gold fish), enemy follows, cutting your slow movers from the behind. That's how you get nascar. Sometimes you win because your slow movers are fast enough to follow you and avoid imminent death. But in the end, it is boring, stupid behavior that doesn't benefit your team. But as we are talking about QP, presumably, I stopped caring few years back. It is impossible to teach folks...

As fro LRMs. I have extreme trouble maintaining the locks, as most LRM worthy mechs are on the heavy side. Usually, I am happy with 100+ damage is such conditions.

At least there's someone who understands how the whole nascar thing came about.

As someone who was actually there when it started, let's settle this. Just like Brom said, the whole nascar phenomenon came about because players misinterpreted what they were seeing & blindly followed other players. What became "nascar" was actually attempts to turn a flank of the enemy team. Very, very effective if it works. Unfortunately the vast majority or people brainlessly lemming trained along with the players attempting to turn the enemy flank.

Result? Right at the start of pretty much every match the entire damned team did a right turn and hit maximum speed. Usually the heavies and assault mechs got left behind and wiped out by the front elements of the enemy lemming train because they had bugger all support. Result? Game loss.

Watch some videos of comp matches. See how many time the brainless lemming train nascar tactic is used there. Hint: zero times.

If you really must lemming train then please at least lemming train towards wherever your heavy / assault element has dropped.

[Prototelis]

There is totally nascar in comp, albeit not frequently at all.

Nascar evolved out of big engine stomp meta and is basically 100% the fault of the large subset of the playerbase that refuses to learn how to trade.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 23 January 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

It takes TWO teams to nascar, one team will win, Nascar always works.

It takes TWO teams to nascar, one team will lose, Nascar always fails.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 24 January 2020 - 10:23 AM, said:

It takes TWO teams to nascar, one team will lose, Nascar always fails.

In your example the game was won, so nascar actually succeeded.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar always wins.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 24 January 2020 - 11:16 AM, said:

In your example the game was won, so nascar actually succeeded.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar always wins.

Are you saying there's no such thing as a draw in MWO?

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 24 January 2020 - 12:32 PM, said:

Are you saying there's no such thing as a draw in MWO?

Statistically insignificant.

Draws are incredibly rare.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 24 January 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

Statistically insignificant.

Draws are incredibly rare.

I don't think you understand how maths works.

[Prototelis]

I don't think you understand what insignificant means lol

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 24 January 2020 - 01:18 PM, said:

I don't think you understand what insignificant means lol

You try that card a lot.

Go back a few posts and you might spot why I don't think you understand maths. You might have to do a refresh of basic statistics at the same time but you'll get there.