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Nascar


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#21 MischiefSC

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 10:30 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 02 January 2020 - 11:20 PM, said:

Are you going to ignore that one team always wins?

Nascar works 100% of the time.


NASCAR also fails 100% of the time.

There's 24 people in match. All 24 people, willing or not, Nascar.

12 win every time.

12 lose every time.

12 is 50% of 24.

So 50% win, 50% lose.

That's how statistics work. You don't get to keep the winning 12 and ignore the losing 12 when calculating the breakdown of results.

If 12 people camped spawn and 12 Nascared and the Nascar always won then Nascar would win 100% and spawn camping win 0%. However, as you stated, both teams Nascar so both teams use the strategy so both teams have to be attributed in the results.

#22 _Magno_

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 02:44 PM

I don't understand the issue with Nascar.

Without movement or rotation, things would be pretty stagnant and boring.

You don't flank with a light. You harass with a light.
You flank or shift to get superior numbers on and edge.

Either the enemy shifts to it and you get a brawl or you get folks shifting the otherway and hence rotation.


#23 Prototelis

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 02:57 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 03 January 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

NASCAR also fails 100% of the time.

There's 24 people in match. All 24 people, willing or not, Nascar.




No it doesn't. If it takes two teams to nascar, and one team always wins, Nascar works 100% of the time.

#24 YueFei

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:01 PM

View Post_Magno_, on 03 January 2020 - 02:44 PM, said:

I don't understand the issue with Nascar.

Without movement or rotation, things would be pretty stagnant and boring.

You don't flank with a light. You harass with a light.
You flank or shift to get superior numbers on and edge.

Either the enemy shifts to it and you get a brawl or you get folks shifting the otherway and hence rotation.


The issue is if it's movement for movement's sake. For example, when people don't understand that they're already in a very strong position, and should continue using it to engage, and instead keep Nascar'ing and end up abandoning a strong position.

#25 Prototelis

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:03 PM

Counterpoint; Most of the time a team thinks it's in a strong position it isn't.

#26 Nearly Dead

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:23 PM

Nascar does work, I experienced a win on River City tonight because we did not charge Suicide Saddle. Yay us.

We only made a half lap though, and ended up fighting in the river.

If you make more than one left turn, that's Nascar, right? I mean correct.

#27 YueFei

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 04:11 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 03 January 2020 - 03:03 PM, said:

Counterpoint; Most of the time a team thinks it's in a strong position it isn't.


Broken clocks, twice a day they'll happen to match the working clocks. Doesn't change the fact that there are broken clocks.

#28 martian

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 08:16 AM

Nascaring - demonstration of the herd instinct (MWO edition). Posted Image

#29 MischiefSC

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 01:19 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 03 January 2020 - 02:57 PM, said:

No it doesn't. If it takes two teams to nascar, and one team always wins, Nascar works 100% of the time.


So by that logic losing doesn't affect win/loss?

You said

Quote

and one team always wins.


That's correct.

What you diid NOT say but is also 100% true is that one team always loses.

Every match. Two teams. Both Nascar.

One wins.

One loses.

Every match. One win, one loss. So the win is 50% of the result of the Nascar. That's statistics.

#30 Prototelis

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 07:00 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 04 January 2020 - 01:19 PM, said:

So by that logic losing doesn't affect win/loss?


By logic, it takes two teams to nascar and one team always wins.

Nascar always generates the win condition.

Nascar has a 100% success rate.

#31 MischiefSC

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:32 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 04 January 2020 - 07:00 PM, said:

By logic, it takes two teams to nascar and one team always wins.

Nascar always generates the win condition.

Nascar has a 100% success rate.


Please google 'statistics percentile'.

Nascar always generates BOTH A WIN AND A LOSS BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO TEAMS.

For Nascar to give 100% win condition one of the following would have to happen:

Only one team always Nascars and one team does not in every match included in the equation and the team that does Nascar always wins.

Both teams Nascar and both teams simultaneously win.

There is only 1 team playing.

Win/loss is a binary. Every match has one team that wins and one team that loses. If Nascar always involves both teams doing Nascar than both teams are part of the equation. One is doing Nascar and winning, one is doing Nascar and losing.

I don't know how else to explain this. Please google the maths. Both teams, the winning and the losing team, are doing Nascar - ergo both teams must have their results accounted for in calculating the result of doing Nascar.

One match.

Two teams.

Team one does Nascar.

Team two does Nascar.

Team one wins.

Team two loses.

Of the teams in that match who did Nascar, 50% won, 50% lost.

Does that help?

#32 Brom96

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 11:33 PM

Nascar exists solely because people cannot understand the term flanking. You can flank with light mechs, no problem. You need them and mediums, that's their job. But, in flanking you need a base around which you move, a fulcrum. That base are your slow movers, whichever class they are. They engage and hold the enemy. Once you flank and disturb the enemy formation, making them turn, die or scatter, your base advances.

That is the theory.

In practice, when the rest of team sees you flank the enemy in centurion or urbie, the move away from a good firing position, trying to follow you even if they are 30-80 kph slower then you. When they realize what is going on (and good luck having an enemy team that has intelligence of gold fish), enemy follows, cutting your slow movers from the behind. That's how you get nascar. Sometimes you win because your slow movers are fast enough to follow you and avoid imminent death. But in the end, it is boring, stupid behavior that doesn't benefit your team. But as we are talking about QP, presumably, I stopped caring few years back. It is impossible to teach folks...

As fro LRMs. I have extreme trouble maintaining the locks, as most LRM worthy mechs are on the heavy side. Usually, I am happy with 100+ damage is such conditions.

#33 Prototelis

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 01:22 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 04 January 2020 - 11:32 PM, said:



Does that help?


No.

There are two teams, it takes both teams to nascar, one team always wins. Nascar works 100% of the time.

#34 OZHomerOZ

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 01:35 AM

I nascar cause match maker is broken due to psr upward bias and time

Tier 1 in my day was a lot tougher, not me, but them.
Focus fire was the norm, trading not a dirty word

Today its a mixed bag, focus fire is lostech, trading means you abandoned your baby sitting post

The end of match screen these days shows that many assault pilots do sub 20 to 150 damage
They have late starts, bring bad builds and don't aim very good.
and so

They are a bit of a weak link if on the enemy team and a disadvantage if on your own team and so its only natural to form a tactic/strategy around this situation because I don't have any better offers like focus fire/trading partners theses days.

If their were better offers I would take them instead
Nascar is better than no coordination.

Don't nascar is not a plan, give an alternative or be silent IMO

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 January 2020 - 01:35 AM.


#35 Brom96

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 02:37 AM

Oh, the alternative is always offered - hold the line and fire at them on such and such position and let mediums/lights hit their left flank. Presuming the enemy will try to nascar and instinctively form up on their right flank.

The issues, in most cases are that people either do not speak English, do not have sound on, or are really stoned/drunk to understand. And that one giving the advice is not native speaker, so he gets to be dismissed as dumb right away. In few cases over the years in QP that I have witnessed, when people took command and team followed, we never lost. Neither of those cases included nascar, but ambush, flanking, etc.

Edited by Brom96, 06 January 2020 - 02:38 AM.


#36 killzone1

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 11:17 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 02 January 2020 - 11:20 PM, said:

Are you going to ignore that one team always wins?

Nascar works 100% of the time.


That's not true, I had a tie once.

#37 OZHomerOZ

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 04:24 PM

View PostBrom96, on 06 January 2020 - 02:37 AM, said:


Oh, the alternative is always offered



Garbage
In my experience people who say "Don't NASCAR" very rarely offer alternatives.
They are commonly lerm boats or some streamers zealous fanboi pushing their own agenda thingie, like reenacting sheep setting up camp in a kill zone in preparation of their own slaughter.
These people say Don't Nascar without an alt all the time
People who understand winning realize NASCAR is just a tool, for a particular job (winning) in certain situations (Skill gap).

Skill gap is the thing that allows NASCAR in many cases.

View PostBrom96, on 06 January 2020 - 02:37 AM, said:

Oh, the alternative is always offered - hold the line and fire at them on such and such position.....


This requires focus fire which in random quick play with team mates of random skill is uncommon.
Also team mates who abandon said "Line of Holding" at the first sound of gunfire make this a unreliable tactic in Yolo/Quick/leach play.

Been burnt too many times.
Doh when I see the names of some known focus fire pilots on my team, I can do this "Hold da Line " of which you speak.
When I shoot and see a bunch of guys shoot my target, this also encourages me to "Hold zee Line"

Other wise its Nascar Baby.

View PostBrom96, on 06 January 2020 - 02:37 AM, said:


The issues, in most cases are that people either do not speak English, do not have sound on, or are really stoned/drunk to understand. And that one giving the advice is not native speaker, so he gets to be dismissed as dumb right away. In few cases over the years in QP that I have witnessed, when people took command and team followed, we never lost. Neither of those cases included nascar, but ambush, flanking, etc.


You over complicating it, its more simple than that.
People who do focus fire in their sleep and want to win simply don't trust people who don't do focus fire.
For pilots who don't do focus fire don't understand that it is simply the biggest bang for your buck FORCE MULTIPLIER in the game.

Shame its pretty rare these days

So Nascar.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 January 2020 - 04:30 PM.


#38 OZHomerOZ

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 08:48 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 04 January 2020 - 11:32 PM, said:

Please google 'statistics percentile'.

Nascar always generates BOTH A WIN AND A LOSS BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO TEAMS.

For Nascar to give 100% win condition one of the following would have to happen:

Only one team always Nascars and one team does not in every match included in the equation and the team that does Nascar always wins.

Both teams Nascar and both teams simultaneously win.

There is only 1 team playing.

Win/loss is a binary. Every match has one team that wins and one team that loses. If Nascar always involves both teams doing Nascar than both teams are part of the equation. One is doing Nascar and winning, one is doing Nascar and losing.

I don't know how else to explain this. Please google the maths. Both teams, the winning and the losing team, are doing Nascar - ergo both teams must have their results accounted for in calculating the result of doing Nascar.

One match.

Two teams.

Team one does Nascar.

Team two does Nascar.

Team one wins.

Team two loses.

Of the teams in that match who did Nascar, 50% won, 50% lost.

Does that help?


Perhaps some statistical definition you speak of does apply

But none the less if two teams NASCAR the team that nascars better wins 100% of the time

So its kinda like poptarting or lrm/narc or a myriad of other stuff
The team that does it better wins 100% of the time.

Thats the point of the saying

Two teams nascar one team wins

So nascar can never be to blame, only players

Otherwise NASCAR wouldn't be a thing, cause players blame nascar and not them selves and improve which makes nascar easyier.

Vicious cycle or a cheeseboard depending how you look at it.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 January 2020 - 08:52 PM.


#39 MischiefSC

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:16 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 January 2020 - 01:22 AM, said:

No.

There are two teams, it takes both teams to nascar, one team always wins. Nascar works 100% of the time.

Okay. Let's try an analogy.

Pat Kell makes Rocket Boots and he hopes those will allow people to fly. However he's not going to use them himself because he doesn't want to die. So he goes to his buddy Prototelis who he knows is a man of the world and knows many people.

Pat Kell says: "Prototelis, please take my patented Pat Kell Rocket Boots, PKRBs for short, and get people to test them. Just be sure test them one case at a time and then come tell me how often they work right to let people safely fly."

So Prototelis takes the PKRBs, which comes in cases of 24, and goes out to recruit people to use them.

In the first test he gives 24 people PKRBs, shows them how they work and then takes them to the top of the Empire State Building. All 24 use the PKRBs and jump off.

12 of them fall, screaming the whole way, to a messy death below. 12 of them soar off into the sky like Iron Man.

Huh.

So Prototelis goes out and gets 24 more people, takes them up and repeats the process. Again, 12 of them blaze off into the clouds and 12 of them flail, their PKRBs failing to function correctly, before adding their gore and viscera to the pile from the last test.

This repeats again and again and again. Every time, 12 people have their PKRBs work wonderfully and fly them around like super heroes and 12 of them have their boots fail to work and they fall, to their splatty fate.

Having thus completed his test and recorded the results of hundreds of cases of 24 boots, Prototelis returns to Pat Kell and says:

"The Rocket Boots worked 100% of the time!"

Pat Kell says: "That's awesome! I would go try them at the Empire State Building but it seems there was some accident and there's hundreds of dead bodies all around it, so I'll go fly off the Chrysler Building!"

Now. What are the odds that when Pat Kell jumps off the Chrysler Building that his boots will send him flying skyward and what's the odds that he'll fall to his death, confused and cursing Prototelis the whole way down?

To measure the efficacy of something, be that Pat Kells patented Rocket Boots or the use of Nascar as a strategy in MWO you must account for everyone in the test who is using them. If half use Nascar in a MWO match or PKRBs to fly off the Empire State Building and succeed and half lose the match or fall to their deaths than only half of the people in the sample group were successful.

Edited by MischiefSC, 07 January 2020 - 09:16 PM.


#40 Prototelis

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:22 PM

That isn't an analogy.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team always win, nascar works 100% of the time.





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