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Double Heavy Gauss Vs 2C-Gauss+2C-Erppc

Balance Gameplay Weapons

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#1 Rkshz

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:11 AM

Hi guys, I have a question for developers:
Why IS have possibility to use TWO Heavy Gauss (instant 50 dmg in one zone) but Clans have no possibility to use TWO Gauss + TWO ERPPC, but also its 50 dmg.

Heavy Gauss / C-Gauss / C-ERPPC
Damage 25 / 15 / 10
Cooldown 5 / 5 / 5
Range 220-900 / 660-1320 / 810-1620
Projectile speed 1500 / 2000 / 1500
Heat 2 / 1 / 14.5

in practice, IS always have quirks for ballistic
in practice, all battle happened in 400-500m distance


IS Heavy Gauss
in practice, it's 100% legal fatal headshot
in practice, your weapon is nearby and you always hit one zone
in practice, always wear this weapon when using ECM
in practice, you can shoot with all weapons to reload all the time without overheating

2C-Gauss+2C-ERPPC (before embargo)
in practice, you cannot place all weapons close to each other, this means not all shots will always fall into one zone.
in practice, if you shoot using all your weapons, you are always seen
in practice, you can only make two shots in a row with all your weapons, after which you will overheat

where is the balance?

Edited by Rkshz, 11 February 2020 - 04:41 AM.


#2 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:29 AM

Don't look at weapon balance in a vacuum, the whole tech aspect needs to be accounted for.
Something you got wrong, though: You can't use HGauss with Stealtharmour. HGauss uses up eleven slots while StealthArmour occupies 2 slots in every component except the head and the CT.

#3 Rkshz

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:44 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 11 February 2020 - 04:29 AM, said:

Don't look at weapon balance in a vacuum, the whole tech aspect needs to be accounted for.

this is gameplay statistics - I thought for a long time before writing this

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 11 February 2020 - 04:29 AM, said:

Something you got wrong, though: You can't use HGauss with Stealtharmour. HGauss uses up eleven slots while StealthArmour occupies 2 slots in every component except the head and the CT.

fix

Edited by Rkshz, 11 February 2020 - 04:45 AM.


#4 VonBruinwald

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:02 AM

View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:44 AM, said:

this is gameplay statistics - I thought for a long time before writing this


Did you think of the triple range? But as Adrian said, tech base.

With the Heavy Gauss you're limited to placing it in a side torso and using std engines. Stealth is also ruled out as an option.

With the C-Gauss+PPC you can distribute it between arms and torso, or load it it all in the the torso and still take an XL

That's more range, more speed, a greater firing angle (if you equip weapons in the arms), and more free tonnage if you choose the XL. The only trade off is heat but at 600m you should be poking anyway.


Now, if they reduced the H.Gauss/LBX-20 to 10 slots, you'd enable IS mechs to take an LFE/Stealth armour, somewhat mitigating the gap. I know it breaks lore but it's not like we can split crits.

#5 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:25 AM

View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:44 AM, said:

this is gameplay statistics - I thought for a long time before writing this


Well you clearly did not think about
  • Range
  • Tonnage
  • Crit Slots
  • cDHS
  • cXL vs IS STD.
  • 90t IS Mechs vs 75t Clan
  • 55km/h vs 65km/h

Seems to me like you didn't think more than about 1 second as that is how long it took me to think of just those 7.

#6 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:25 AM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 11 February 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

Did you think of the triple range? But as Adrian said, tech base.


Hey, I may be a bit pedantic here and there, but I don't fear milk! It's Aidan, not Adrian! There's got to be time for that.

#7 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:34 AM

So now I've had more than 1 second...

View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:11 AM, said:

in practice, IS always have quirks for ballistic
in practice, all battle happened in 400-500m distance


The Sleipnir, arguably the best IS Guass carrying mech has IS Gauss -5%, that's it. You really gonna try hinge an argument on a meaningless quirk?

Do understand that at 500m, D-HGauss is not doing 50dmg, right?


View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:11 AM, said:

IS Heavy Gauss
in practice, it's 100% legal fatal headshot
in practice, your weapon is nearby and you always hit one zone
in practice, always wear this weapon when using ECM
in practice, you can shoot with all weapons to reload all the time without overheating
  • Yes, at up to around 350m it is. Dual Gauss for Clan, if anyone shaved head armour (and most do) - is an instant headshot out to over 650m.
  • Again, Sleipnir / Annihilator. Does not carry ECM. Stop making false "in practice" statements.
  • Anni and a Fafnir can get hot with backup lasers equipped, actually. Again, don't make "in practice" statements that are false.

View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:11 AM, said:

2C-Gauss+2C-ERPPC (before embargo)
in practice, you cannot place all weapons close to each other, this means not all shots will always fall into one zone.
in practice, if you shoot using all your weapons, you are always seen
in practice, you can only make two shots in a row with all your weapons, after which you will overheat
  • You can absolutely place the damage in the same spot. If you can aim, it is very possible. And doing that at 700m+. Dual HGauss is doing no dmg at that point.
  • So is a DHGauss Sleipnir, Annihilator, Victor - Need I go on?
  • Yes and at that point you have delivered 120pts of damage, at over 700m, with PPFLD accuracy. You also have 65km/h and 15 cDHS to aid with that.

View PostRkshz, on 11 February 2020 - 04:11 AM, said:

where is the balance?


If you took those rose coloured glasses off you might stand a chance to see it perhaps?

Either that or you just have no idea what the word Balance in MWO, actually, means.

Show me where on the head the D-HGaus Fafnir touched you son.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 February 2020 - 05:37 AM.


#8 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:37 AM

Ракшаз, рыбам уже три года как пойух на эту игру и особенно на всё что касается баланса)

#9 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:44 AM

Can we, for the sake of discussion, abstain from the usage of languages or typefaces that are not english/latin?

#10 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:44 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 11 February 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

Ракшаз, рыбам уже три года как пойух на эту игру и особенно на всё что касается баланса)


I mean I did suspect that was the case.

Good thing it's been clarified for certain.

#11 Rkshz

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:45 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 11 February 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

Ракшаз, рыбам уже три года как пойух на эту игру и особенно на всё что касается баланса)

вода камень точит Posted Image

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 11 February 2020 - 05:44 AM, said:

Can we, for the sake of discussion, abstain from the usage of languages or typefaces that are not english/latin?

relax bro, its a multilingual game Posted Image

Edited by Rkshz, 11 February 2020 - 05:47 AM.


#12 B0oN

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:58 AM

But I´m not speaking russian and want to understand as well Posted Image
Translate plox !

OP : Balance is good as it is, Double HGauss is damn nasty close in, true that, but is outranged quite easily by nearly all Clan weapons, so with that being said I´m a firm believer in the reigning in of double CGauss+ double CERPPCs .
That was a nasty 50 point pinpoint attack that was extremely hard, if not impossible to counter for IS machinery .
Balance is quite nice as it is right now .

Edited by B0oN, 11 February 2020 - 05:59 AM.


#13 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:58 AM

That's why we have multilingual subforums. In General Discussion, we should use the language everyone can understand without google translator.

#14 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:05 AM

instead of a wall of text, here the short version to understand the differences others have pointed out:

go buy yourself the whammyIIC with 2x erppc / gauss
go buy a fafnir with 2xhvygauss.

run them yourself through QP and you'll see why those two MUST be different.

#15 Prototelis

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:17 AM

The key difference is zoning.

"Legal" DHG oneshots to the dome only happen at short range and are employed in slow mechs.

Vintage pepsi goose could be done by much faster mechs, from height, and at much longer range.

But let's just keep comparing things in a vacuum.


Next stop; clams range op. Godasp too stronk.

#16 justcallme A S H

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:24 AM

View PostB0oN, on 11 February 2020 - 05:58 AM, said:

But I´m not speaking russian and want to understand as well Posted Image
Translate plox !


The OP has about as much of an understanding of Balance as the Flat Earth movement does about the Earth.

#17 Brauer

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 08:05 AM

According to this analysis it sounds like comp should be nothing but DHG mechs. But it isn't. Maybe DHG has some rather massive drawbacks that prevent it from being the absolute top-tier loadout that the OP implies it is?

#18 K O Z A K

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 09:10 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 11 February 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

PGI haven't given a crap about this game for 3 years now, especially anything balance related


for our non vodka drinking potato eating friends :)

#19 Kubernetes

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 09:40 AM

This can't be serious. The Clan combo hits full power out to 660m+. The weapon systems aren't remotely comparable.

#20 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 03:01 AM

Almost no IS mechs can do 2x ERPPC + 2x Gauss quite like the Clan mechs can. Furthermore, some of the clan mechs that can do this combo can also mount JJs. So, given the range, heat dissipation and pop-tarting ability, the IS mechs get short range damage boost.





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