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#21 MadBomberMan

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 10:39 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 19 February 2020 - 01:05 PM, said:

Imagine the game being in such a state where players actually think they are sticking it to da LRM man by deliberately not acquiring targeting information about their opponent. And consequently, not using the command wheel for its most over powered feature.


It is sobering to think that someone out there would limit their own happiness (help from friendly LRM's) by refusing to lock targets and play the game to the best of their ability.

#22 martian

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 11:41 PM

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 19 February 2020 - 01:10 PM, said:

last time we had the command-wheel discussion, part of it at least was considered cheating, so... Posted Image

Really?

#23 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 11:49 PM

Yep, I believe the "Enemy spotted" feature was called a wall hack.

#24 martian

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 11:58 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 19 February 2020 - 11:49 PM, said:

Yep, I believe the "Enemy spotted" feature was called a wall hack.

I can understand if you dislike some cheaters for using a "wall hack".

But the Command Wheel is the official game feature. It is supposed to be used by the players.

#25 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:20 AM

IKR? Some people just need a scapegoat for their lack of success.

#26 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:29 AM

View PostMawai, on 19 February 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

However, the point is very valid. Everyone should lock their targets - the information you get on loadouts and weak points is far more valuable to you than trying to make others on your team less effective because they choose to use LRMs.

The thing is, you posted some links from way back, forgetting to mention a small fact, that target acquisition system has been reworked since then. Back in 2012-2014, it took far less time to acquire target info and see damaged mech locations, moreover you could further speed up the process with modules.

Nowadays it takes way more time to acquire target info than it takes to unload a full LL/HLL alpha into a target and hop behind cover. Thus acquiring locks during trades means increased exposure time, which is smth nobody with half a brain would do.

So ... no. I won't bother pressing R. Simply because I have, you know ... actual weapons that don't need a lock, and because I know where the mech is damaged by just looking at it (lostech, I admit), or most commonly because I'm actually the one who started shooting it and thus I know exactly where its already damaged. If I could get a free lock, like when the target doesn't look my way and there is nobody else who can shoot me, then sure. Otherwise ... nope.

The only thing I wish would change is the automatic lock acquisition on a target you shoot at close range. Because unpressing R all the time in order to not get nuked by friendly lock-on noobery in the back when you brawl an enemy up is a little bothersome.

#27 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:33 AM

View PostMadBomberMan, on 19 February 2020 - 10:39 PM, said:

It is sobering to think that someone out there would limit their own happiness (help from friendly LRM's) by refusing to lock targets and play the game to the best of their ability.

I hate to break it to ya, but people actually increase their own happiness by not getting that "help" from friendly LRM's in the form of cored out rear armor and critted weapons. The tears of backrow leeching lurmers who refuse to get their own locks increase said happiness even further.

#28 ShiverMeRivets

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:05 AM

Geez, the amount of ignorance....

You don’t press R to help the lurm boats. You press R for:

1. Yourself - so you can see the damage on the paper doll.

2. Everyone - so you can follow with “target spotted” and keep track of the target out of LOS. So your team too can do “target spotted” and have more than one enemy tracked while out of LOS. Especially valuable against light mechs.

3. Others - so they too can see the damage paper doll and know where to aim instead of spreading random damage. So they can get a red square on targets while still out of LOS and be on point as they come around the corner / poptart / ambush that **** 150 kph mech that is about to cross an open firing line. So they can lock their Streaks out of LOS and blast away the instant the target becomes visible.

Hitting R is a great help to your team regardless of LRMs.

#29 K O Z A K

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:09 AM

If you're not hiding in the back waiting for someone to hold locks, or waiting for damaged enemies so you can kill secure, for like the first half of the match locking targets is pointless because all mechs you encounter are fresh or close to it. After that you can often see what's damaged on the mech before the lock is acquired, or flat out know about it because either it was you that damaged it, or your buddy who did and called it out. If the enemy doesn't see you, you also don't usually want to lock them because that will notify them they've been spotted. As you can see there are plenty of circumstances where firing 0.0001 seconds faster or getting back to cover 0.0001 seconds faster is more beneficial than obtaining a lock. If I'm already exposed to the enemy and like plummeting them with dakka or something meaning I'm staring at them anyways, sure, otherwise sorry, not sorry.

#30 Bistrorider

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:29 AM

View PostJohny Rocket, on 18 February 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Now if these guys were always on the other side I would keep my mouth shut and enjoy the free lunch but next match they might well be on my team.
Just hit R and you won't make these kind of mistakes.


Nah, you should stay quiet. You're spoiling my system Posted Image

#31 ShiverMeRivets

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:02 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 20 February 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

If you're not hiding in the back waiting for someone to hold locks, or waiting for damaged enemies so you can kill secure, for like the first half of the match locking targets is pointless because all mechs you encounter are fresh or close to it. After that you can often see what's damaged on the mech before the lock is acquired, or flat out know about it because either it was you that damaged it, or your buddy who did and called it out. If the enemy doesn't see you, you also don't usually want to lock them because that will notify them they've been spotted. As you can see there are plenty of circumstances where firing 0.0001 seconds faster or getting back to cover 0.0001 seconds faster is more beneficial than obtaining a lock. If I'm already exposed to the enemy and like plummeting them with dakka or something meaning I'm staring at them anyways, sure, otherwise sorry, not sorry.

This is not 0.0001 seconds faster. The damage doll takes time to load. A time that can seem like eternity sometimes.

#32 Nearly Dead

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 11:28 AM

I would like to know why LRM damage is less noble than pew-pew damage. I guess it is like a grumpy old knight pissing and moaning about crossbows and matchlocks and how Real Men fight with lances and swords. From horseback. In the rain, uphill both ways.

#33 Brauer

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 11:35 AM

View PostNearly Dead, on 20 February 2020 - 11:28 AM, said:

I would like to know why LRM damage is less noble than pew-pew damage. I guess it is like a grumpy old knight pissing and moaning about crossbows and matchlocks and how Real Men fight with lances and swords. From horseback. In the rain, uphill both ways.


It's because 1) lrm damage is spread all over and thus 1 point of lrm damage is worth less than 1 point of direct fire damage, 2) LRMers can hide out of sight and do damage while taking no risk, while direct fire requires a player to expose and take some risk in exchange for dealing damage, and 3) lrms (and lockons generally) require less skill than direct fire weapons. There may be other reasons for this, but those are, imo, the most important and most reasonable grounds to not take high damage from lrm seriously. Fortunately, on most maps it is easy to negate lrms by simply using cover.

#34 K O Z A K

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 11:52 AM

View PostNearly Dead, on 20 February 2020 - 11:28 AM, said:

I would like to know why LRM damage is less noble than pew-pew damage. I guess it is like a grumpy old knight pissing and moaning about crossbows and matchlocks and how Real Men fight with lances and swords. From horseback. In the rain, uphill both ways.


It's more like having a guy in your modern infantry squad that takes a seat up on your armored vehicle, but will not carry a rifle, only carries grenades, and once dismounted will never face the enemy, won't cover a corner, only sits behind his buddies with firearms as they're getting shot and asks them to tell him where to throw the grenades so he doesn't expose himself

#35 RickySpanish

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:07 PM

Just in case some people aren't aware - you can totally hit R and shoot *before* the paper doll shows up. I know, I know, that's some comp level IQ moves there, but I swear it works. Even better, *after* the paper doll shows up you can keep on shooting at your target while also now being aware of the state of their armour, internal structure, and even which weapons are still functioning.

It's pretty OP actually.

View PostHazeclaw, on 20 February 2020 - 11:52 AM, said:


It's more like having a guy in your modern infantry squad that takes a seat up on your armored vehicle, but will not carry a rifle, only carries grenades, and once dismounted will never face the enemy, won't cover a corner, only sits behind his buddies with firearms as they're getting shot and asks them to tell him where to throw the grenades so he doesn't expose himself


So like sharing armour IRL is bad mkay?

#36 K O Z A K

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:20 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 20 February 2020 - 12:07 PM, said:

So like sharing armour IRL is bad mkay?


So like bringing a guy who won't fight to watch your flank IRL is bad mkay?

#37 Bistrorider

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:26 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 20 February 2020 - 11:52 AM, said:


It's more like having a guy in your modern infantry squad that takes a seat up on your armored vehicle, but will not carry a rifle, only carries grenades, and once dismounted will never face the enemy, won't cover a corner, only sits behind his buddies with firearms as they're getting shot and asks them to tell him where to throw the grenades so he doesn't expose himself


Sucha guy in modern warfare is called artilleryman. His pals from modern infantry calls for his backup whenever they can. But... you never know where the shells will fall. Artilleryman life is never easy too, but I've never heard about infantry unit which don't want artillery support just because. Thus for me LRMs has some other interesting functions. It's not even about hitting with LRMs or peel some assault to 20% of health. It's about assumptions the enemy is making. So good LRM boat can sustain those false assumptions to the enemy team.

Edited by Bistrorider, 20 February 2020 - 12:27 PM.


#38 K O Z A K

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:43 PM

View PostBistrorider, on 20 February 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:


Sucha guy it's called in modern warfare artilleryman. His pals from modern infantry calls for his backup whenever they can. But... you never know where the shells will fall. Artilleryman life is never easy too, but I've never heard about infantry unit which don't want artillery support just because. Thus for me LRMs has some other interesting functions. It's not even about hitting with LRMs or peel some assault to 20% of health. It's about assumptions the enemy is making. So good LRM boat can sustain those false assumptions to the enemy team.


This comparison has often come up in the past, but I think comparing LRM boats to artillery is inaccurate. This game has artillery, it's called artillery. And it works like artillery does in real life (except more accurate and less powerful). Artillery usually works from outside the close engagement area, and doesn't take anything away from the infantry up front, but only adds to their firepower.

An LRM guy is literally a guy in your humvee (dropship) that refuses to carry a gun and only carries grenades. He eats the rations, he drinks the water, he uses up the space, but he will not fight like the rest of his teammates, he will only throw grenades over your head. Is it better to have him than nobody? Sure, but you'd much rather have 5 guys with firearms in your truck than 4 plus 1 like that.

#39 RickySpanish

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:57 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 20 February 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:


So like bringing a guy who won't fight to watch your flank IRL is bad mkay?


It's just the thought of a soldier being reprimanded for not sticking their neck out into enemy fire that's funny to me. I agree with your point but the example might need to be adjusted :P

#40 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:12 PM

I don’t think some players realize how underwhelming even 1000 damage with Lrms really is. It’s not nothing, but it’s just ok as far as damage contribution goes, due to the spread. In a recent match I took 700+ damage in a 65 ton Top Dog and lived, many assault mechs can take even more punishment. 400 damage of even semi-accurate (70% torsos) direct fire is better in terms of making a difference in the match.






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