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About Clan Puls Lasers


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#1 Rkshz

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 03:58 AM

Only one question
- why all IS lasers have full range, but CLAN puls lasers have castrated range?
What reason? Where is the balance?

#2 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 04:17 AM

LOL.

Another thread from the totally clueless section of the playerbase.

What Clan Pulse lasers have "castrated" range? Other than cLPL?

#3 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 05:09 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 01 March 2020 - 04:17 AM, said:

What Clan Pulse lasers have "castrated" range? Other than cLPL?

All of them? ... Canon cMPL should hit up to 570m optimal. cSPL up to 285m optimal.

All MWO weapons have castrated ranges because reasons.
Remember when you could hit stuff with an AC20 at 700m in MWO? Pepperidge farm remembers.

#4 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 05:14 AM

There ya go - I actualy had no idea cMPL etc was not same MAX range as IS.

I mean I don't know because I've never looked and nor would I use them over 400m because of the heat they generate. The only lasers I worry about with max range is ERL and cERL. Otherwise - move closer.

Not that any of that matters when Clan TCs are better, cDHS is better, cXL is better - and so the list goes on.

#5 VonBruinwald

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 05:52 AM

View PostRkshz, on 01 March 2020 - 03:58 AM, said:

Only one question
- why all IS lasers have full range, but CLAN puls lasers have castrated range?
What reason? Where is the balance?


'Cause clan tech OP.
  • On TT it was balanced by BV and "Honour". Plus your friends calling you out.
  • In single player games, who cares, you're catering to the power fantasy and can always self-nerf.
  • In multilayer games it's bad design because it fuels power-gaming and ruins the experience of everyone who doesn't.
If you want to see real castrated range look at the Snub-PPC: On TT it's selling point was 50% increased optimal with no minimum range vs. the standard. But here they reduced the optimal by 50% and put the max range where optimal should end!

Edited by VonBruinwald, 01 March 2020 - 05:53 AM.


#6 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 07:09 AM

guys, you make this too easy for him.






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#7 Kubernetes

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 08:51 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 01 March 2020 - 05:09 AM, said:

All of them? ... Canon cMPL should hit up to 570m optimal. cSPL up to 285m optimal.

All MWO weapons have castrated ranges because reasons.
Remember when you could hit stuff with an AC20 at 700m in MWO? Pepperidge farm remembers.


PGI wants weapons to fill a niche. Remember when gauss had 3x max range? Full range MPLs and LPLs might be considered too good compared to their ER counterparts. Personally if you gave me full range cMPLs I don't think I'd run anything else on Clanside.

#8 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 09:14 AM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 March 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

PGI wants weapons to fill a niche.

PGI is clueless, period. They've litereally nerfed all weapon ranges across the board in order for some of them to "fill a niche". Needless to say, if you un-nerf all of them at once, they'll be filling a niche in the exact same way they fill a niche now. I mean, sure, go ahead and run cMPLs all you want on maps like Alpine and Polar where you'd be disassembled by Gauss from 1.5km away before you get into your extended MPL range.

The problem is, those maps are an exception. PGI map design is utterly dumb, they've made all maps play exactly the same by creating exact same features on every map. Every map has plenty cover, every map has plenty open space at the same time. Thus every engagement is played out in the exact same way, with some mid-short range peek-pokes and nascar round the rosey around a central feature whatever and wherever it is. This in turn means that certain weapons that are optimal for that range became dominant, and "required" nerfs to be "balanced". Remember old Caustic and how different it was compared to the new one that has stupid cover everywhere? Old RiverCity that didn't have 1km open space tradefest in the water? ... Gone, all flavor from said maps in favor of "dumbalance".

Honestly, I can't care less about stuff thats been done for the sake of "dumbalance" since the core features the game is built on are an outright abomination. Instant automatic pinpoint weapon convergence, lack of active radar, tiny map size, free target info sharing, lack of a loadout system and requirement to pick a mech before you know what map you play on. Given all that the actual proper weapon ranges have obviously been flushed down the toilet along with the spirit of a proper BT/MW game.

But hey, its Minimally Viable ProductTM after all, no point in fussing over or expecting anything decent. Only thing that saddens me is that PGI is gonna keep defiling the corpse of a franchise for five more years at least it seems.

#9 Kubernetes

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 10:13 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 01 March 2020 - 09:14 AM, said:

Needless to say, if you un-nerf all of them at once, they'll be filling a niche in the exact same way they fill a niche now. I mean, sure, go ahead and run cMPLs all you want on maps like Alpine and Polar where you'd be disassembled by Gauss from 1.5km away before you get into your extended MPL range.


I mean not really, because QP is a clusterf**k of diverse builds every single match, and as you point out, the maps allow (or incentivize) opponents to close into brawl range. Polar is pretty much guaranteed to close to <500m within the first few minutes. Alpine is probably the best bet for using long range, but even there I've had great games in short range builds. The times you run into an elite shooter in a long range build on Alpine are few and far between. I'm just saying that if you gave me cMPLs that reached out to 660m, I don't think I'd ever bother with most of the other Clan lasers.

#10 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 11:19 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 01 March 2020 - 09:14 AM, said:

Spoiler



As always - agree.

But kinda disagree. Mainly as some weapons needed adjustment. And that means nerf.

Granted not in the case of cMPL which ate what, 2 or 3 nerfs in 2017, not of which it really needed. Sadly here we are. Gauss needed a bit of a slap for Max range, it was a bit too much.

Most others did not need it of course. Especially not
  • cSPL
  • cMPL
  • SRM (all)

I am sure there are more. Well, more in terms of BUFFs to make them GOOD in the wake of Skill Maze

#11 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 01:25 PM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 March 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

PGI wants weapons to fill a niche. Remember when gauss had 3x max range? Full range MPLs and LPLs might be considered too good compared to their ER counterparts. Personally if you gave me full range cMPLs I don't think I'd run anything else on Clanside.


All ballistics had 3x optimal ranges, with the AC/Ultra ranges being dialed down to 2x either right before or right after Clans went live. Gauss and LBX kept 3x, but eventually Gauss was dropped to 2x.

The cSPL did need to be slapped down. PGI had no real justification to increase the cSPL stat like they did with the first set of changes while leaving all other short range lasers in the dust.

Quote

SPL dmg/heat

Lore: 3 dmg / 2 heat

MWO June 2014: initially 3.4 dmg / 3.4 heat
MWO July 2014: increased to 4.4 dmg / 3.4 heat
MWO Nov 2014: Increased to 6.0 dmg / 3.0 heat
MWO Dec 2014: Release of Community Warfare aka Faction Play

Reminder - no penalty cXL penalties for a few months then it was only 20% heat dissipation.


MWO June 2017: Decrease to 4.0 dmg / 2.7 heat

Pulse Lasers had a -2 gunnery hit modifier. Heavy Lasers had a +1 gunnery hit modifier.


Quote

But hey, its Minimally Viable ProductTM after all, no point in fussing over or expecting anything decent. Only thing that saddens me is that PGI is gonna keep defiling the corpse of a franchise for five more years at least it seems.


Sadly, I agree with the above.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 March 2020 - 01:26 PM.


#12 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 07:04 PM

View PostRkshz, on 01 March 2020 - 03:58 AM, said:

Only one question
- why all IS lasers have full range, but CLAN puls lasers have castrated range?
What reason? Where is the balance?


C-XL, C-DHS, C-Endo and C-Ferro.

Do I like the fact that C-MPLs aren't as good as IS MPLs in terms of burn, heat and cooldown? No, I don't. But with every other tech being superior and the playerbase being the way it is, something had to be done and PGI did it this way.

#13 CFC Conky

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 08:17 PM

I remember when I first started playing the most terrifying thing to face was a Clan light mech boating c-spls.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

#14 Sjorpha

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 08:27 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 01 March 2020 - 11:19 AM, said:

Most others did not need it of course. Especially not
  • cSPL
  • cMPL
  • SRM (all)


cspl at 6 damage 3 heat was too strong though, they nerfed it too hard but it did need a nerf imo.

#15 _Magno_

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 02:43 AM

I'd recommend folks read the background of Battletech to appreciate that clan tech, strategy and tactics are much different that IS. There are also dozens of laser weapon manufacturers, etc..

#16 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 03:27 AM

View Post_Magno_, on 02 March 2020 - 02:43 AM, said:

I'd recommend folks read the background of Battletech to appreciate that clan tech, strategy and tactics are much different that IS. There are also dozens of laser weapon manufacturers, etc..


And? Lore is not balance! This game is balanced around IS and Clan are equal strong. In TT there are are BV and so bigger numbers for IS. But no one wants to play the punshing bag for lore level clan power.

#17 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 03:51 AM

View PostIgnatius Audene, on 02 March 2020 - 03:27 AM, said:

And? Lore is not balance! This game is balanced around IS and Clan are equal strong. In TT there are are BV and so bigger numbers for IS. But no one wants to play the punshing bag for lore level clan power.

Lore is part of the franchise. Up until not too long ago MWO was proudly proclaiming itself to be a "BattleTech Game" in its logo. Make a balanced game by throwing all the lore out all you want, just don't call it "BT", don't use any kind of mech designs, names, etc.

And besides, if you can't comprehend other forms of balance that do not mean equalizing everything, thats quite frankly your problem. Oh and TT BT is a perfectly balanced game btw.

#18 _Magno_

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 07:25 AM

The lore is the source of much of the game in its Online form. The designers are balancing in context to the differences in Clan tech advancements and warfare protocol.

Clan = improved ranges, tighter packaging, omnipods, much more expensive, harder to maintain and repair, and above all bltiz fast warfare.
IS = long duration campaigns, easy maintenance, etc..

You can easily balance around this.

Gauss in tabletop is king. Because there is no skill difference or timing requirements to "shoot" them. Gauss is balance in TT by having the pilot take 2x damage and 2x pilot checks if you crit it. There is no falling over or unconsciousness in MWO.

To get pure mathematical balance in MWO, you'd have to strip the game of its source material. We already do a LOT of that for QP and even FP.

#19 Arnold The Governator

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 09:43 AM

It's for balancing reasons, although PGI has a really bizarre mentality of "balance" depending on what game mode you are playing. There's alot of favoritism for brawling and short ranged combat because of the range restrictions that the IS has to compensate for. That is why cERLL's have abysmal damage output, cLPL's are penalized by generating way too much ghost heat, cERPPC's having the same problem with cLPL's, and basically the entire clan energy bracket getting hit pretty hard with nerfs that have compiled from the past.

I think a global range buff (increased by 100 meters) for all IS energy/clan weaponry would be beneficiary for everyone. It might hopefully discourage nascar more often if players can use the extended range, but that might be wishful thinking since room temperature IQ team mates that do no coordinate as a team will always be a reoccurring problem.

I'd be in favor if they removed ghost heat entirely from the game at this point.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 02 March 2020 - 09:44 AM.


#20 B0oN

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 10:47 AM

*enjoys his popcorn*

Anybody wants some too ?





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