Jump to content

About Clan Puls Lasers


145 replies to this topic

#61 Prototelis

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 4,789 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:22 PM

IS AC20 has stupidly low velocity and high cool down lol.


View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

My laservomit Hellbringer can fit 4 ERML and 2 HLL without cooking off.


At 80 kph, all high mounted, 25 double heatsinks, and ECM.

58 damage alpha.
5.6 sustained DPS



Quote

A Black Knight can fit 6 ML and 3 LPL with shorter burn and no ghost heat whatsoever and still have more armour.


With only two high mounted lasers the rest being on the slow slung arms or the waist, at 64 KPH, with 17 double heat sinks. The 7 doesn't get heat quirks either, the Black Knight with 10% heat has structure quirks.

60 damage alpha
5.2 sustained DPS
(figures from the 6B, which has 10% heat gen quirk and structure instead of armor)



Hahahaha. lol. Gonna call IS op and pick like the worst comparison possible. GGEZ

Edited by Prototelis, 06 March 2020 - 02:24 PM.


#62 Sniper09121986

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sickle
  • The Sickle
  • 2,134 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:36 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 02:22 PM, said:

IS AC20 has stupidly low velocity and high cool down lol.

With only two high mounted lasers the rest being on the slow slung arms or the waist, at 64 KPH, with 17 double heat sinks. The 7 doesn't get heat quirks either, the Black Knight with 10% heat has structure quirks.

60 damage alpha
5.2 sustained DPS
(figures from the 6B, which has 10% heat gen quirk and structure instead of armor)


AC/20 cool-down is 4 seconds, same as both Clan 20 guns. Black Knight does 70 kph with LFE - and more armour. IS medium lasers have 0.90 burn to 1.25 for CERML, and LPL have 0.67 to 1.55 - almost a second of difference.

Somebody desperately needs to get off their high horse.

#63 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Referee
  • CS 2019 Referee
  • 7,606 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:43 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

My laservomit Hellbringer can fit 4 ERML and 2 HLL without cooking off. A Black Knight can fit 6 ML and 3 LPL with shorter burn and no ghost heat whatsoever and still have more armour. Double standards gonna double.


You can actually fit 2 HLL / 5 ERML. For a alpha that is some 14pts higher than IS.

BL-6B-KNT - 57pt / 18DHS

HBR-F - 71pt / 21DHS / ECM


I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:04 PM, said:

IS AC/20 spreads fire now? Missiles cluster and register? Clans have access to stealth armour?

Are we even on the same planet anymore?


You're definitely on a different planet because your understanding of the game might as well be on Pluto that is how far off it is.

Clan LRMs have insane heat efficiency. So much so that you can just fire 4 x LRM20s, sit in the middle of ghostheat, and it makes no difference what-so-ever. Try fire 4 x IS LRM20s and see what happens

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:36 PM, said:

Somebody desperately needs to get off their high horse.


Actually someone, really you, needs to open their mind to a word:

Balance

It is balanced. If you think Clan weapons/mechs are in some mystical way under-powered compared to IS - You again reaffirm that you are somewhere around Pluto with your understanding of MWO.

#64 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 714 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:45 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:36 PM, said:

AC/20 cool-down is 4 seconds, same as both Clan 20 guns. Black Knight does 70 kph with LFE - and more armour. IS medium lasers have 0.90 burn to 1.25 for CERML, and LPL have 0.67 to 1.55 - almost a second of difference.

Somebody desperately needs to get off their high horse.


The Black Knight is a good mech and a lot of fun, but if it was so OP people would run it far more in comp. You should keep in mind a few things.

1) Your build isn't even right. Large Lasers are generally better than LPLs for IS, so it's 3LL + however many ERMLs you can fit. You can go 78kph with an XL (which means insta-death if you lose a torso), or about 70 with an LFE.
2) Sure the Black Knight has more armor than the Hellbringer, but it should anyway. It's a 75 ton mech compared to a 65 tonner. Add in that the Black Knight has to expose FAR more of the mech and the survival quirks are perfectly fine.
3) The Hellbringer is still plenty effective and can peak a Black Knight to death by abusing its high mounts.


Who dunked on you so hard with the Black Knight to upset you so? I, admittedly, run it a lot in QP, but I don't see a ton of others in it. It has plenty of drawbacks in its own right, if it were to be nerfed it'd really hurt it's viability.

EDIT:
Ugh, Ash beat me to it. See his post. Also, you could technically fit 2HLL and 6ERML on the HBR, but that's getting mighty toasty at that point.

And he is definitely correct about just eating Ghost heat on 4xLRM20. I did that on Alpine against EON. Wasn't a problem at all particularly since I had a coolshot.

Edited by Brauer, 06 March 2020 - 02:47 PM.


#65 Sniper09121986

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sickle
  • The Sickle
  • 2,134 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 04:12 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 06 March 2020 - 02:43 PM, said:

Clan LRMs have insane heat efficiency. So much so that you can just fire 4 x LRM20s, sit in the middle of ghostheat, and it makes no difference what-so-ever. Try fire 4 x IS LRM20s and see what happens


Like I would know such things... how come that you know about carrying 4*LRM20?

View PostBrauer, on 06 March 2020 - 02:45 PM, said:

The Black Knight is a good mech and a lot of fun, but if it was so OP people would run it far more in comp. You should keep in mind a few things.


Comp is a different animal, sure, but in FP years back Black Knights really melted faces. And they did it in the one area that the Clans have allegedly been superior - laser vomit. Cannot remember if Clan SRMs registered properly then (seems like half of them misses now), but between that and Clan UAC spreading fire all around that felt like a big-time spit in the face. I admit I rarely see it now, it is just that in FP all the balancing issues are staring in your face.

#66 Prototelis

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 4,789 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 04:37 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 02:36 PM, said:

AC/20 cool-down is 4 seconds, same as both Clan 20 guns.


With one of the lowest velocities in the game.

(protip, you might have a point if you were comparing IS uac10/5 combos to their clan counterparts)

Quote

Black Knight does 70 kph with LFE - and more armour.


I just pointed out that, no it does not. It cannot achieve similar/comparable sustained damage to the hellbringer and move that fast. Either way, that is a 10kph difference.

This build on the 7 is even hotter. These builds are typically run on the 6B, which has the armor of a normal 75 ton mech and structure quirks which don't mean **** because of the Knights bigger CT lower mounts.

Quote

IS medium lasers have 0.90 burn to 1.25 for CERML, and LPL have 0.67 to 1.55 - almost a second of difference.


And are all shorter ranged with faster drop off, in a slower hotter mech, with terrible hitboxes and lower mounts lol.


Quote

Somebody desperately needs to get off their high horse.


Someone desperately needs to learn what the **** they're talking about when they're going to argue the black knight is stronger than a hellbringer lol.

Edited by Prototelis, 06 March 2020 - 04:43 PM.


#67 Hazeclaw

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,052 posts
  • LocationTrue North Strong and Free

Posted 06 March 2020 - 04:53 PM

Lol, black knight isn't even the best IS vomit heavy, or 2nd best

#68 cougurt

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 534 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 04:54 PM

god knight OP

#69 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 714 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 05:19 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Comp is a different animal, sure, but in FP years back Black Knights really melted faces. And they did it in the one area that the Clans have allegedly been superior - laser vomit. Cannot remember if Clan SRMs registered properly then (seems like half of them misses now), but between that and Clan UAC spreading fire all around that felt like a big-time spit in the face. I admit I rarely see it now, it is just that in FP all the balancing issues are staring in your face.


Is the TLDR of this really that once, years ago, the Black Knight was very strong for an IS mech? If so this is a terribly weak argument

If you are arguing that Clanners are getting stomped by superior IS mechs right now I'd argue you're you're still pretty far off. Clanners have plenty of strong mechs to compete with IS right now. There are plenty of strong mechs on both sides to compete in FW. Each faction has advantages in certain areas, but the Black Knight definitely isn't a standout.

#70 Prototelis

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 4,789 posts

Posted 06 March 2020 - 07:07 PM

View PostBrauer, on 06 March 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

Is the TLDR of this really that once, years ago, the Black Knight was very strong for an IS mech? If so this is a terribly weak argument



The real irony is that the black knight was never a very strong mech in FP lol

#71 Sniper09121986

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sickle
  • The Sickle
  • 2,134 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 01:58 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

With one of the lowest velocities in the game.


Since when does that matter? It is a close-quarters weapon that puts all its damage in a single pixel while Clan weapons spread it all around either way. Same with the lurms, even Clan ones are twice as useless because of it. Balanced my hairy @$$.

Or maybe it IS actually balanced for the target audience, that might explain it.

#72 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 714 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 02:06 AM

View PostSniper09121986, on 07 March 2020 - 01:58 AM, said:


Since when does that matter? It is a close-quarters weapon that puts all its damage in a single pixel while Clan weapons spread it all around either way. Same with the lurms, even Clan ones are twice as useless because of it. Balanced my hairy @$$.

Or maybe it IS actually balanced for the target audience, that might explain it.


Velocity matters because it affects accuracy. Sure the AC20 is a close range weapons, but all things equal I'd want higher velocity regardless. Also, the AC20 is pretty well eclipsed by other options in most cases right now.

Clan lrms work fine. As others have stated on clan side you get massive tube counts (and often speedier lrm boats), whereas on the IS side you get lrms that fire all at once and are more likely to get offensive quirks. Both can work well. I mean you can fit at least lrm 80 on a bunch of clan mechs starting at like 70 tons, whereas on the IS side I don't think you can fit that until you get to 100 tonners.

#73 Sniper09121986

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sickle
  • The Sickle
  • 2,134 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 02:20 AM

View PostBrauer, on 07 March 2020 - 02:06 AM, said:

Velocity matters because it affects accuracy. Sure the AC20 is a close range weapons, but all things equal I'd want higher velocity regardless. Also, the AC20 is pretty well eclipsed by other options in most cases right now.

Clan lrms work fine. As others have stated on clan side you get massive tube counts (and often speedier lrm boats), whereas on the IS side you get lrms that fire all at once and are more likely to get offensive quirks. Both can work well. I mean you can fit at least lrm 80 on a bunch of clan mechs starting at like 70 tons, whereas on the IS side I don't think you can fit that until you get to 100 tonners.


Recently I had this match in River City. I in a classic laservomit HBR have chased off a light from the island with big reservoirs when a guy in MCII started slinging LRMs at me. The light had set up a UAV so the MCII guy did not even have to worry about getting locks. It went down like this: I peek out, he fires, I fire and step back behind the reservoir, his missiles hit... all two or three of them that get me out of cover while the rest flies into ground. I had no AMS, he had armour advantage and all the locks he needed but still could not do anything to me. Guess who won that exchange, then guess how things would go if the missiles were clustered.

#74 Roland09

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Tai-shu
  • Tai-shu
  • 468 posts
  • LocationLuthien, Draconis Combine

Posted 07 March 2020 - 03:41 AM

So, you won trades against a stupid lurmer. Congratz. Proves IS OP all right.

#75 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 714 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 04:20 AM


View PostSniper09121986, on 07 March 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:


Recently I had this match in River City. I in a classic laservomit HBR have chased off a light from the island with big reservoirs when a guy in MCII started slinging LRMs at me. The light had set up a UAV so the MCII guy did not even have to worry about getting locks. It went down like this: I peek out, he fires, I fire and step back behind the reservoir, his missiles hit... all two or three of them that get me out of cover while the rest flies into ground. I had no AMS, he had armour advantage and all the locks he needed but still could not do anything to me. Guess who won that exchange, then guess how things would go if the missiles were clustered.


The laser vomit trader should still win that against IS lrms if played properly.

Edited by Brauer, 07 March 2020 - 04:22 AM.


#76 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 2,511 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 04:24 AM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Comp is a different animal, sure, but in FP years back Black Knights really melted faces.

Dude time of great quirkening is gone, Black Knights were actually used in comp also, when they were GREAT, they are not anymore.

#77 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Referee
  • CS 2019 Referee
  • 7,606 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 07 March 2020 - 04:51 AM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

Like I would know such things... how come that you know about carrying 4*LRM20?


Well if you don't know - and it's extremely evident that you don't - that doesn't mean others don't understand.

I understand the game, balance et al extremely well.

Nothing you have said here is remotely accurate.

#78 Sniper09121986

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sickle
  • The Sickle
  • 2,134 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 05:15 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 07 March 2020 - 04:51 AM, said:

Well if you don't know - and it's extremely evident that you don't - that doesn't mean others don't understand.


Did you just confess in public that you... have used 4*LRM20?

#79 VonBruinwald

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Undisputed
  • The Undisputed
  • 2,655 posts
  • LocationRandis IV

Posted 07 March 2020 - 05:16 AM

View PostSniper09121986, on 07 March 2020 - 05:15 AM, said:

Did you just confess in public that you... have used 4*LRM20?


Who hasn't... apart from that dude at the top of Jarl's.

#80 Brauer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 714 posts

Posted 07 March 2020 - 05:28 AM

View PostSniper09121986, on 07 March 2020 - 05:15 AM, said:


Did you just confess in public that you... have used 4*LRM20?


Some of us have used 4xlrm20+a on stream in the grand finals. No real need to confess when you've done so publicly. Also, if you wanted to know both the lrm boats we used in the finals were *GASP* clan mechs!

Course I rarely use any lockon weapons these days, just a few drops here or there for an event, otherwise it's all direct fire for me.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users