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The Nerds And Game Developing


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#21 Sniper09121986

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:04 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2020 - 11:11 AM, said:

Laughable. Games in 90s were one-and-done, no DLCs, no additional content of any sort, and yet they engaged you for days and months. In fact most people at least 25-30 years old have plenty of ancient games they could gladly replay over and over, simply coz those are good games. Nowadays "extra content" is most of the time just as shallow as the empty games themselves. But of course, when you spent all your money on crack and booze high resolution art ... ain't nobody got time for actual ... you know ... gameplay. But sure, it looks good, for about 15 minutes.


I think something needs to be said about innovation. For instance, people are criticising MW5 for being BT with a first-person mode, but the reality is you can only invent the wheel so many times. My first thought was about the Space Rangers game. Sure, new technologies open new doors, but developers cannot exactly pump them out any more than scientists can just go and invent you a K-F drive. Not trying to make excuses for Bobby Kotick (there can be none), but 20 years ago the history course was 20 years shorter.

View PostRickySpanish, on 06 March 2020 - 11:52 AM, said:

Yes. You could. I know this because I did. With more advanced tools come more advanced expectations. At the very beginning of the gaming era in the 80s it was perfectly possible for a single programmer to create an entire game, including art and sound effects. The reason that everyone and their Mum wasn't doing it back then was because games were a newly emerging entertainment medium.


Well, it is more than established now. Game engines and asset libraries are readily available, many of them for free. It all comes down to having ideas and putting in time and effort, and THAT is a much more compelling reason why Bobby still needs to (gasp) pay people - because the tallest soapbox means nothing if you have nothing to say.

#22 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:13 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 01:04 PM, said:


I think something needs to be said about innovation. For instance, people are criticising MW5 for being BT with a first-person mode, but the reality is you can only invent the wheel so many times. My first thought was about the Space Rangers game. Sure, new technologies open new doors, but developers cannot exactly pump them out any more than scientists can just go and invent you a K-F drive. Not trying to make excuses for Bobby Kotick (there can be none), but 20 years ago the history course was 20 years shorter.

Huh? ... People are criticizing MW5 because its outright sh*t, that has hardly anything to do with BT. Nobody is talking about innovation, we are talking about game quality. There are many "classics" that are being re-made these days, exact same games, exact same scenarios, exact same gameplay, with slightly tuned graphics and capable of running on modern PCs. And these re-makes very often sell far better than your brand new AAA titles released at about the same time.

#23 Sniper09121986

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:22 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2020 - 01:13 PM, said:

Huh? ... People are criticizing MW5 because its outright sh*t, that has hardly anything to do with BT. Nobody is talking about innovation, we are talking about game quality. There are many "classics" that are being re-made these days, exact same games, exact same scenarios, exact same gameplay, with slightly tuned graphics and capable of running on modern PCs. And these re-makes very often sell far better than your brand new AAA titles released at about the same time.


Define quality. Bug-free? That goes without saying (at least used to). Not making the game immersive enough? Well, that takes creativity in a lot of different areas. And Q3 has been immersive enough without much in the way of that Posted Image

#24 RickySpanish

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:32 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2020 - 01:13 PM, said:

Huh? ... People are criticizing MW5 because its outright sh*t, that has hardly anything to do with BT. Nobody is talking about innovation, we are talking about game quality. There are many "classics" that are being re-made these days, exact same games, exact same scenarios, exact same gameplay, with slightly tuned graphics and capable of running on modern PCs. And these re-makes very often sell far better than your brand new AAA titles released at about the same time.


My dude, that's because of the nostalgia factor, not because those games were necessarily better than today's offerings. They were of course good games, but like I said that's because historically, we have a huge pool of classics to draw from.

New games coming out are made by just as talented and driven people as ever. The entry bar for game development is certainly lower now that the tech and market have matured and become popular, but the quality of games is imo better than ever.

#25 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:35 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

Define quality.

Bug free, polished, long-term engaging gameplay, plenty of actual content (not just cosmetics) etc. Doesn't have to be immersive, doesn't have to be realistic, doesn't have to be 4k BS art. It has to be ... fun.

#26 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:41 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 06 March 2020 - 01:32 PM, said:

My dude, that's because of the nostalgia factor, not because those games were necessarily better than today's offerings. They were of course good games, but like I said that's because historically, we have a huge pool of classics to draw from.

New games coming out are made by just as talented and driven people as ever. The entry bar for game development is certainly lower now that the tech and market have matured and become popular, but the quality of games is imo better than ever.

You keep repeating "nostalgia factor" like a mantra. Its not. As I've said stop assuming.

Oh, and fyi ... most new good games are made by the same talented and driven people who created old classics. And the quality of the rest is actually worse than ever.

But hey, keep fooling yourself if you like, somebody needs to sponsor the likes of PGI, EA and alike after all. Thankfully there are still some actually good games being made, and perhaps its even for the best they don't get the typical majority types playing them and influencing their devs in any way.

#27 Sniper09121986

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 01:43 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Bug free, polished, long-term engaging gameplay, plenty of actual content (not just cosmetics) etc. Doesn't have to be immersive, doesn't have to be realistic, doesn't have to be 4k BS art. It has to be ... fun.


Well, that would be WWF RAW! Butt-ugly graphics even at its time, no plot whatsoever (added in later games), even less realism than on TV, but boy did I have fun role-playing the TV matches... with commentary... Posted Image

#28 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:03 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 06 March 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Well, that would be WWF RAW! Butt-ugly graphics even at its time, no plot whatsoever (added in later games), even less realism than on TV, but boy did I have fun role-playing the TV matches... with commentary... Posted Image

Which part of "actual content" means no plot whatsoever to you?

#29 Sniper09121986

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 02:06 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2020 - 02:03 PM, said:

Which part of "actual content" means no plot whatsoever to you?


What?

#30 LordNothing

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Posted 07 March 2020 - 03:30 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

Uhm, the workflow in a modern game is easily 10 times bigger than a game from the late 90s or early 2000s.


the old way still has merit. look at kerbal space program. a game from a small team that never developed a game before and in mexico city, of all places, managed to develop one of the best games of the 2010s. not by using megalithic workflows and avoiding money pits with regard to the size of art teams even going so far to adopt a simple cartoony graphic style. and they were run by a developer, not a dedicated ceo, which has a lot to do with game quality imho. when you have a programmer in a lead position in the company, attention to detail becomes important and the games feel more polished as a result.

then you look at minecraft which didnt even have artists at first, still manages to be a game with an insane level of depth yet without seeming to overly complex. thats ignoring the fact that its the most financially successful game ever.

these days you run a game studio like a movie studio, and with equivalent or greater budgets. all to create dumbed down games for the masses. this usually means financial success, but at what cost.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2020 - 03:35 PM.


#31 Prototelis

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Posted 07 March 2020 - 03:38 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 07 March 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:


the old way still has merit. look at kerbal space program.


Despite looking really simple, kerbal has an incredibly different and more complex workflow than say the original half-life.

They're easily comparable, both projects are stretching the limits of their given engine to the point where it can in many ways not even be considered the same engine. Kerbal however has an advantage in Unity because Unity's modular nature over gldsrc basically being Quake that someone hit with a sledgehammer until it was shaped like Half-Life.

All said tho; kerbal isn't really an example of a simpler workflow, there is a lot going on under the hood. The same thing goes for minecraft. Simple art != simple workflow

#32 LordNothing

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Posted 07 March 2020 - 03:50 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

Despite looking really simple, kerbal has an incredibly different and more complex workflow than say the original half-life.

They're easily comparable, both projects are stretching the limits of their given engine to the point where it can in many ways not even be considered the same engine. Kerbal however has an advantage in Unity because Unity's modular nature over gldsrc basically being Quake that someone hit with a sledgehammer until it was shaped like Half-Life.

All said tho; kerbal isn't really an example of a simpler workflow, there is a lot going on under the hood. The same thing goes for minecraft. Simple art != simple workflow


helped that the developer was a space nerd who already knew a lot of the space math too.

i think im more advocating the 'programmer in the captain's chair' type of development. programming workflow is different from the others because its not something you can brute force. the art department can always hire more artists to raise its output. but multiple coders can be a hindrance (too many cooks) unless there are clear cut lines. like the way quake had john carmack doing the engine stuff in c, leaving the game mechanics to be written in quake-c by someone else. now the engine stuff is something you rent and the game logic programmer is also something you rent (pgi's problems in a nutshell).

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2020 - 03:59 PM.


#33 Davegt27

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Posted 07 March 2020 - 06:51 PM

I was looking at some old Angryjoe reviews on some games
and it was pretty cool how he could point out good point/things in games

one was a mech game called Chrome Hounds
the one I just watched yesterday was Steel Battalion

a picture (or video review) says a thousand words

originally I could not understand why people wanted a good story to go with MW5
but after the Steel Battalion vid I say I can see how it could really enhance the game

note dont post links to those video reviews

Edited by Davegt27, 07 March 2020 - 07:23 PM.


#34 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 08 March 2020 - 04:36 AM

I think people have forgotten just how boring HBS's Battletech was when it was first released and how badly it ran. The main campaign was ok'ish and the presentation was good. But there was always sense of something happening in the background and the IS cluster**** was always the main focus.

Unfortunately for MW5, the story doesn't matter since the genius idea was to make it last for several decades. How is that any good for story-telling, especially when the said story revolves around revenge? Didn't anyone raise this issue at PGI or someone did and was just swatted down by the usual suspects who "know what the community wants"? On top of that, restriction-based customization was done in such a way that even many of the assaults couldn't bring a large ballistic weapon and most variants were almost alike. There's nothing a programmer can do at this point.

#35 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 09 March 2020 - 03:07 AM

wait the Day thats Disney come to the idea to buy all Gaming Studios ...its like movies

In the past, the directors looked for the studios that gave money to make their dream come true. Today, creative-free studios are looking for the directors who should create their marketing project and fullfill her Dream of art... Previously, art was looking for money, today money is trying to find its way into art t fullfill her dream of money
















Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 09 March 2020 - 09:55 PM.


#36 Anjian

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 12:20 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 07 March 2020 - 06:51 PM, said:

I was looking at some old Angryjoe reviews on some games
and it was pretty cool how he could point out good point/things in games

one was a mech game called Chrome Hounds
the one I just watched yesterday was Steel Battalion

a picture (or video review) says a thousand words

originally I could not understand why people wanted a good story to go with MW5
but after the Steel Battalion vid I say I can see how it could really enhance the game

note dont post links to those video reviews


Chromehounds was really good. Not only that, but its core combat was straight out community warfare. After you finish the single player story, which is essentially a tutorial and isn't bad on its own, you go find a group or a clan to join with, and then the real game begins.

You want some really good stories to go with your mech combat, I would say the gold standard for that would be the Armored Core series, which are made by the same people who did Chromehounds.

Armored Core was the prototype to games like Dark Souls, and whatever games FromSoftware makes. When FromSoft hit gold with games like Sekiro, Bloodbourne, and Dark Souls --- all from the Armored Core formula, FromSoft no longer has any real incentive to do Armored Core and Chromehounds anymore, even if the devs continue to tease the idea once in a while.

Steel Battalion is by Capcom. There was a WW2 version of Steel Battalion that Capcom hired FromSoft to develop. However, it wasn't that much of a success. Both companies realize they can make better money making games for some other genre.

Edited by Anjian, 10 March 2020 - 12:20 AM.


#37 Anjian

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 12:26 AM

View PostMW Waldorf Statler, on 09 March 2020 - 03:07 AM, said:

wait the Day thats Disney come to the idea to buy all Gaming Studios ...its like movies

In the past, the directors looked for the studios that gave money to make their dream come true. Today, creative-free studios are looking for the directors who should create their marketing project and fullfill her Dream of art... Previously, art was looking for money, today money is trying to find its way into art t fullfill her dream of money


Disney probably would want to buy the Pokemon franchise --- which alone makes more money than any of the Disney's franchises including the MCU.

Over Japan Inc's dead body however.

Snatching Nintendo also won't be a bad idea but I'm sure Japanese authorities won't let you.

#38 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 08:42 PM

Well, it took 14 years for Black Mesa to be made. Skyblivion and Skywind are being made.... still. Morrowblivion was shelved after it too was being made for years and years. It's only a matter of time before MW5 will have Mech Commander and other Mechwarrior games ported over.

#39 RickySpanish

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 05:08 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 10 March 2020 - 08:42 PM, said:

Well, it took 14 years for Black Mesa to be made. Skyblivion and Skywind are being made.... still. Morrowblivion was shelved after it too was being made for years and years. It's only a matter of time before MW5 will have Mech Commander and other Mechwarrior games ported over.


Ah. Black Mesa is my trigger word.

Black Mesa is the perfect example of people with no idea of what made a game special attempting to remaster it. I remember reaching the Blast Pit in BM and just. Oh my God. It was so spectacularly awful. I cringed at every single liberty they took at altering the map geometry and texture selection. Every "new" area they built was objectively far, far worse than the original. Blast Pit stands out because it was my favourite area in the game, and the way they rebuilt the elevator and tram scenes were unforgiveable. Then there's all the random clutter everywhere. No wonder it has taken them so long to remake Xen, they are utterly incapable of wrapping their minds around the advanced map design Valve employed there. BM is what happens when amateurs pretend to be pros.

#40 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 05:29 AM

View PostRickySpanish, on 11 March 2020 - 05:08 AM, said:

BM is what happens when amateurs pretend to be pros.


I wouldn't mind that but they are charging money for it....

Deus Ex : Revision ... THAT is an excellent e.g., of what a remaster should be like and it's free if you own the Deus Ex GOTY edition. Why is Black Mesa not free?





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