80 replies to this topic

[Peace2U]

I have been playing more than normal in an attempt to achieve enough points to earn the prize for this special event (not likely going to make it due to the high hours of grinding required) and I have noticed a trend for teams to go clockwise on most maps.
This has resulted in a much higher percentage of wins and I'm trying to figure out why it is easier to win doing anti nascar.
I personally suspect that doing counter clockwise rotation is inbred into the player base and if the fast lights come swinging around a bend to find the assaults facing them they back off, causing a traffic backup of mechs in a nice death ball.
Just speculation, but I would like to hear other thoughts as to why clockwise rotation seems to disrupt the enemy team battle plan.
Peace

[General Solo]

In my experience anti nascar loses more often then not in QP, as you cant depend their to be focus fire around.

IMO some times you win, and the reason has nothing to do with anti nascar or nascar.

Sometimes one team concentrated fire while the other team did not, a more fundamental issue entirely, right after not dieing.

When a team fails the fundamentals, anti nascar or nascar won't save them.

Teams that do the fundamentals can often neutralise the anti nascar or nascar entirely if the other team doesn't do the fundmentals.

Shoot the sheeting same target

Keep winning bois

TLDR: Maybe you won due to skill gap and not anti nascar.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 March 2020 - 10:25 PM.

[Lithology]

I agree that either NASCAR or Anti-NASCAR is more than 50% effective... as long as most everyone participates. And, although I don't have actual numbers to back this up, it seems that most mechs have more hard points on their right arms and right torso. Or, maybe those are just the ones I own...

[Kotzi]

Hm, if you form a firing line and the enemy has to peek, does this give you an advantage? Most people are stupid enough to peek instead of regrouping and flanking when the enemy is in an a more advantageous position. But on the other hand, people also tend to turn and run instead of backing up and keep on shooting, because precious mint condition armor.

Edited by Kotzi, 17 March 2020 - 12:20 AM.

[Nearly Dead]

It probably works because a player has noticed an opportunity on the left and exploited it, killing one or more mechs. Once that happens it is an avalanche as other team members follow.

Just had this happen on Polar this morning. Game was stalled in a snipe standoff as those of us with AMS ran thru our AMS ammo while the assaults and heavies peeked and ducked trying to line up the one perfect, zero risk, shot when an enemy player went out too far on their right flank. Three of us swarmed him and killed him in seconds. Then went in to kill two more. The assaults apparently decided that the odds were good enough to justify putting the spurs in and charged and it was all over in about a minute.

[justcallme A S H]

Anti NASCAR / Rotation wins for a very, very basic reason...

Firing line.

1-2 mechs come around a corner on their merry "circle", which does not involve shooting anything. You have 3-4 mechs waiting for them... 1-2 mechs are now dead. You now win far more easily as the snowball has started.

It really isn't that hard to understand however the over skill of the playerbase is just so much lower than it was 2.5 years ago they don't understand it - 2.5 years ago is when most skilled players (that were left) simply had enough of PGIs balance/gameplay decisions and quit.

[The pessimistic optimist]

I think it's because most NASCAR just happen and there is no strategy or tactics behind it. If someone calls anti NASCAR that means someone try to get organized strategy going

[FRAGTAST1C]

21 laps... err I mean pages?

[Kotzi]

Actually, if you play a couple of rounds on every map, you will know 90% of the time where and when the first enemies will be. There is actually no need to call that out. But i have seen people nascaring while an UAV painted their radar red, in their backs...

[FRAGTAST1C]

^ That's very common 'cause Mini-Map is LosTech.

[K O Z A K]

In quickplay, in theory it is successful because as Ash said you have a situation where a small number of enemy mechs (because their team is stretched out in nascar) are facing a large number of your mechs who have pre aimed where the enemy will be coming from. The first 1-3 mechs can literally vaporize is the first seconds of the fight. However in reality this fails most of the time, because the second one mech will appear in front of you, most of your teammates with turn right about 120 degrees and smash the W key.

[Alan Hicks]

It could be great that the established disease/habit of nascar gets countered by a generalized anti-nascar team behavior.

Would be fair and expected that the teams that stand their ground with a firing line, supporting assaults and heavies, get the win. Not the yolo-"strategists" that always do the damned and boring nascar.

The game would return as it was played before and more interesting tactics could be developed then. But anyway, I think whatever happens it's just too late for MWO.

It all depends on the team you get, some are open not to nascar, others listen, but plenty cant wait to go again into the usual merry-go-round. (something that really looks stupid from a distance)

I really hope the trend spreads and eventually the nascar non-sense will start to disappear. With the usual negligence and cowardice you see around, that would be nearly a miracle !

Depending on the map and class drops, sometimes, a clockwise partial rotation towards the assault or heavy lance, instead of nascaring, gets the team to build a mayor death-ball / firing line. One that is ready to push or receive the other spread team "leaded" by their fast movers.

[Sniper09121986]

Nearly Dead, on 17 March 2020 - 04:32 AM, said:

It probably works because a player has noticed an opportunity on the left and exploited it, killing one or more mechs. Once that happens it is an avalanche as other team members follow.

Just had this happen on Polar this morning. Game was stalled in a snipe standoff as those of us with AMS ran thru our AMS ammo while the assaults and heavies peeked and ducked trying to line up the one perfect, zero risk, shot when an enemy player went out too far on their right flank. Three of us swarmed him and killed him in seconds. Then went in to kill two more. The assaults apparently decided that the odds were good enough to justify putting the spurs in and charged and it was all over in about a minute.

In my observation third time is the charm. If a team loses one or two mechs it can usually come back from it. After they lose a third one with all the other team still on their feet, it is, like, 80% safe to charge them and win. This is why coordinated light wolf packs are so effective, they can contribute not only in a brawl when they are at the bottom of target priority list, but also at the start of the match. Another factor is that different mechs have different speeds, and not many people bother with things like cohesion and formation. The first mech to reach the enemy has often the least armour and armament, and they gradually stream into the kill-box instead of at least charging all at the same time.

[Black Caiman]

justcallme A S H, on 17 March 2020 - 05:04 AM, said:

Anti NASCAR / Rotation wins for a very, very basic reason...

Firing line.

1-2 mechs come around a corner on their merry "circle", which does not involve shooting anything. You have 3-4 mechs waiting for them... 1-2 mechs are now dead. You now win far more easily as the snowball has started.

It really isn't that hard to understand however the over skill of the playerbase is just so much lower than it was 2.5 years ago they don't understand it - 2.5 years ago is when most skilled players (that were left) simply had enough of PGIs balance/gameplay decisions and quit.

Ive seen this argument made multiple times by you and others, and Im by no means saying it is not accurate because I have no way to disprove it. However, if all the talent left some 2 1/2 odd years ago, wouldn't new talent just replace that? Perhaps not in the same quantity, but surely some new players with skill have trickled in, and/or some players have improved their skill levels during that time. By your argument their was a massive exodus of talent, and its been replaced solely by low skill players. That would seem like an odd trend.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Anti-Nascar (aka turning around and shooting the enemy team) works because most teams that Nascar only follow a single file line formation. Therefore, you can concentrate all your firepower onto one enemy mech as they keep mindlessly chugging along to get shot by concentrated team fire. Nascar is the natural result an uncoordinated team and unwillingness to communicate with each other.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Really missing the obvious one here - it's not just about a firing line - it's about not leaving your Assaults behind!

[Tarl Cabot]

PeppaPig, on 17 March 2020 - 01:14 PM, said:

Really missing the obvious one here - it's not just about a firing line - it's about not leaving your Assaults behind!

This and the OP does not mention which side they were on. Reverse Nascar when your assaults are on the far left can work because the assaults are not trying to catchup/being left behind. One side is nascaring will have their lights/fast med peak through first, then usually they are vaporize, This is usually due to those players NOT expecting the reverse-nascar, especially where the other team has setup a firing line, then said firing line NOT run after first contact.

Charlie - Bravo - Alpha - usually tis C - B - A
vvvv..................................................v ........................... ^
.......... ........................................... v........................... ^
^^^^............................................... >>> C------> B--->A
Charlie - Bravo - Alpha - but it is usually like this..

The other issue is the general lack of communication, not even a no "OMG they are not running!!!"

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 March 2020 - 08:09 PM.

[Sniper09121986]

Tarl Cabot, on 17 March 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

The other issue is the general lack of communication, not even a no "OMG they are not running!!!"

They mostly talk on the NA server, be it in-game calls or just banter, the EU server is practically mute.

[justcallme A S H]

Black Caiman, on 17 March 2020 - 08:56 AM, said:

Ive seen this argument made multiple times by you and others, and Im by no means saying it is not accurate because I have no way to disprove it. However, if all the talent left some 2 1/2 odd years ago, wouldn't new talent just replace that? Perhaps not in the same quantity, but surely some new players with skill have trickled in, and/or some players have improved their skill levels during that time. By your argument their was a massive exodus of talent, and its been replaced solely by low skill players. That would seem like an odd trend.

New Talent? Yeah no.

I'm an Admin for the Competitive league, I'm also the shoutcaster and I've casted many many hours of Competitive MWO.

Quite simply the good players that left will not and cannot be replaced. Just because good players leave doesn't mean not-so-good ones magically get better. They are bad for many reasons.

The overall quality of Division A / B / C teams has not improved. Teams come up from lower Divs because good ones (and players) leave - in majority of cases. They are simply gap fillers - they are not there because they are better. The base level of skill is without question lower now than it was 2 years ago.

I mean RL33 somehow made it into Finals for worlds this year (Top 18). Any previous years they would not have made Top 50, for example.



The BIG error is this part of your statement:

Black Caiman, on 17 March 2020 - 08:56 AM, said:

By your argument their was a massive exodus of talent, and its been replaced solely by low skill players. That would seem like an odd trend.

There is no replacement in MWO - only decline.

https://leaderboard....ats#playerchart

High skill players have left. That does not mean that low skill players suddenly improve in skill.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 March 2020 - 02:24 AM.

[Black Caiman]

justcallme A S H, on 18 March 2020 - 02:22 AM, said:

Quite simply the good players that left will not and cannot be replaced. Just because good players leave doesn't mean not-so-good ones magically get better. They are bad for many reasons.

High skill players have left. That does not mean that low skill players suddenly improve in skill.

Im definitely not refuting their are fewer good players because their are just fewer players altogether. If their used to be 50,000 players and lets say 1,000 really good ones, well now their are 15,000 total players so their are probably only about 300 really good ones hanging around. Its also probably true that players that were not good have remained well...not so good. I know Ive seen the same players stay at the same levels for years, and Im sure you've seen even more of that then I have. That said their have been plenty of new players that have come into the game in the last 2 1/2 years even with the overall declining numbers, and they idea that none of them are any good to fill some of those gaps seems almost impossible. Though I guess anything is possible.