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(Psa) Snipers Are Bad.... Mmmmmkaaay?


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#21 Dimento Graven

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 03:07 PM

View PostSniper09121986, on 25 March 2020 - 02:04 PM, said:

Please elaborate. What is lagging, rendering in general or the advanced zoom part? I thought their ancient version of CrutchEngine runs fine even on typewriters these days. I never noticed any such lag, and I advance zoom quite often.
There's a visual lag such that there's like around a tenth of second (maybe less)difference between what you'd see if you just used 2x zoom vs. advanced zoom.

It's not much of a difference, but if you're aiming for head shots you notice it.

That craptacular custom version of CrysisEngine just doesn't handle it right, even with an nVidia 1080GTX and an OC'd Intel i9 9900k.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 25 March 2020 - 03:07 PM.


#22 1 O O percent BongLord

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 03:07 PM

View PostHumble Dexter, on 25 March 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's great to have a lrm boat in your team, just not a whole lance of them.

Since when do I bring a whole lance of lrm players with me ? Since never.

After watching you get dominated in Solaris by ATMs/LRMs, your opinion on this game, player or otherwise is just tossed out the window..

#23 CarloArmato

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 04:35 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 25 March 2020 - 01:16 PM, said:

Well, even when I had the patience to sit in the back and snipe, I never found advanced zoom to be of any significant use and actually more of a hindrance.

HOWEVER, if it's working for you, cool.

My preferred style of play is to be up there armor sharing and attempting to get my head shots off those who face tank me.


Fair enough. I got some AC20 / SNPPCs headshots too, but even in QP matches I prefer my gauss vomit builds like the warhammer due to being cool on any map and reliable at most mid to long ranges. If gausses were not so fragile though, I would definitely stick a lot closer to both team and the enemy.

View PostDr Cara Carcass, on 25 March 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

How much do you have? i have made over 1k without zoom by now and found it to be more easy after i really tried to.


I have more than 300 headshots. Now that I think about it, I'm used to sidestrafe aim quite often at the last few moments (i.e. wait for the reticle and my target to reach the desired position rather than actually aim where I expect the target will be) and using advanced zoom gives a bit more detail where and how make corrections and when release the trigger.

As I said, I don't use it below below SRM range, but over 400 (especially 500 meters) it is very noticeable... I've achieved HS at range even without advanced zoom, but target had to be REALLY predictable (3:48)

Edited by CarloArmato, 25 March 2020 - 04:58 PM.


#24 Warning incoming Humble Dexterer

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:12 PM

View PostMichelle Branch, on 25 March 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:

After watching you get dominated in Solaris by ATMs/LRMs, your opinion on this game, player or otherwise is just tossed out the window..

Last Season I won a random match with LRMs in every division, not recommended but I wanted to demonstrate that it was possible.

This season one unnamed top Solaris player boasted he used Discord to share information about exactly who was queued where and with what, so he could hand select a mech knowing beforehand exactly what type of enemy mech he was going to face and which kind of map he needed to get voted to make his mech win... In this case it was using an unlikely fast narc/lrm Arctic Wolf on an open map to keep running away from and wear down the slow moving assault he knew he was going to face in Div2...

Demonstrating his ability to bend the rules by sharing that kind of info to reach his Solaris spot safely through information warfare... And his equal ability to use the same method of winning outside Solaris too.

Would he have brought that mech without knowing beforehand which mech he was going to face ? No.

Would I have brought my mech and get that map voted knowing what mech he was going to bring ? No.

So my opinion on this game ? It was a nice demonstration of how this game works behind the scenes.

#25 CarloArmato

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 07:16 AM

View PostBrauer, on 25 March 2020 - 12:05 PM, said:


My gausshammers are both LFE. One even has 6ERML instead of 4. They are slow for QP, but they still work in that environment, and it's not like he's zooming around in those videos.

I disagree about gauss vomit warhammers being more effective with LE compared to XL.

The best tactic for ranged fight is to poke so fast you won't take damage at all (aka achieve free trades). The faster the engine, the smaller the time frame the opponents can return damage. LE are more forgiving in case someone manages to focus a side torso, but XL engine are faster, so when used properly there will be little to no returned damage, and while also being lighter means you can spend some tons on arm's armor and achieve an overall similar surivavibility to LE when used properly (torso twist and spread damage on useless arms, which you can't "abuse" on LE because that tonnage has been spent on the engine survivability)

So yes, XL engine are fragile and overall harder to use, but more powerful when exploiting their strong points and combined with a good skill tree (i.e.: almost max armor and boost some acceleration/deceleration)

Just in case some is curious about my build (armor values are not perfect) and skill tree: the point of my build is to provide almost completely pinpoint firepower at any range and almost non-stop (7 alfa strikes before overheating pre-skills).
https://mech.nav-alp...de2509df_WHM-6R
https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons

Due to the current player queue I'm forced to play as a "sniper" or solo player, but if there were more vomit laser builds or dakka boats that would actually position themselves correctly instead of running around like headless chickens, or have brawlers that actually pay attention were the mid-long range part to the team is so they can focus togheter on the same target, it would actually achieve that level of variety that everyone is looking for. In fact, having brawlers AND snipers setting up an ambush and firing line to counter the enemy team nascar/death ball was really nice and refreshing the few it happened last year before I quitted.

Be mindful though that I'm not saying that sniping is the best way to play the game: as a sniper I have to land strikes on the right component if I'm willing to be useful (if I spread damage like an LRM boat, I'm as useless as one of them without any NARC / TAG), but being able to land meaningful strike up to 1km and with almost no downtime, it means I can become a force to reckon with if I manage to core a brawler before it even enters a fight. Also, if there is an incoming brawler and this brawler has the advantage of cover, I could be doomed if I'm too slow to escape or nowhere to run.

#26 Brauer

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 08:23 AM

View PostCarloArmato, on 26 March 2020 - 07:16 AM, said:

I disagree about gauss vomit warhammers being more effective with LE compared to XL.

The best tactic for ranged fight is to poke so fast you won't take damage at all (aka achieve free trades). The faster the engine, the smaller the time frame the opponents can return damage. LE are more forgiving in case someone manages to focus a side torso, but XL engine are faster, so when used properly there will be little to no returned damage, and while also being lighter means you can spend some tons on arm's armor and achieve an overall similar surivavibility to LE when used properly (torso twist and spread damage on useless arms, which you can't "abuse" on LE because that tonnage has been spent on the engine survivability)

So yes, XL engine are fragile and overall harder to use, but more powerful when exploiting their strong points and combined with a good skill tree (i.e.: almost max armor and boost some acceleration/deceleration)

Just in case some is curious about my build (armor values are not perfect) and skill tree: the point of my build is to provide almost completely pinpoint firepower at any range and almost non-stop (7 alfa strikes before overheating pre-skills).
https://mech.nav-alp...de2509df_WHM-6R
https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons

Due to the current player queue I'm forced to play as a "sniper" or solo player, but if there were more vomit laser builds or dakka boats that would actually position themselves correctly instead of running around like headless chickens, or have brawlers that actually pay attention were the mid-long range part to the team is so they can focus togheter on the same target, it would actually achieve that level of variety that everyone is looking for. In fact, having brawlers AND snipers setting up an ambush and firing line to counter the enemy team nascar/death ball was really nice and refreshing the few it happened last year before I quitted.

Be mindful though that I'm not saying that sniping is the best way to play the game: as a sniper I have to land strikes on the right component if I'm willing to be useful (if I spread damage like an LRM boat, I'm as useless as one of them without any NARC / TAG), but being able to land meaningful strike up to 1km and with almost no downtime, it means I can become a force to reckon with if I manage to core a brawler before it even enters a fight. Also, if there is an incoming brawler and this brawler has the advantage of cover, I could be doomed if I'm too slow to escape or nowhere to run.


Thanks for defining free trades for me. /s

Top speed is not a terribly important attribute for a trader so long as you can reach your power position in time. When trading agility and hardpoint locations are far more important. Agility is no longer impacted by engine size, so the XL's only advantage over the LFE is something like 9kph top speed. In that Mining drop, aside from your walk to the fight (where you spent time in the settings screen), you hardly ever hit your top speed. On Canyon you hit your top speed briefly when crossing from cover to cover. That's definitely not worth the chance to die from a single critted out gauss imo.

You also make a lot of claims about LFE Gausshammers that are just flat wrong. I have an LFE gausshammer with a fair amount of arm armor for example, so you get a LOT more survivability out of that mech than with an XL. I also have one that minimizes exposure by bringing a bigger alpha (6erml instead of 4), meaning it doesn't have to poke as much. And it even has plenty of arm armor.

You also seem to think I'm bagging on IS XL in general. I'm not. I run a bunch of mechs with IS XLs, but they don't have an easily critted gauss in a ST.

#27 Dimento Graven

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 09:19 AM

View PostBrauer, on 26 March 2020 - 08:23 AM, said:

...

You also seem to think I'm bagging on IS XL in general. I'm not. I run a bunch of mechs with IS XLs, but they don't have an easily critted gauss in a ST.
True that.

It would of course be an altogether different matter if gauss weapons weren't constructed from pure explodium.

As it is equipping a gauss is effectively equipping a bomb to your chest.

#28 CarloArmato

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 10:11 AM

Good points about acceleration and deceleration for LFE, but I have to point out that 6xERML warhammers necessarily have to expose "more" mech when poking with 6xERML: the arm mounted ERML are quite low and wide, so you need to expose the whole arms and torsoes to alpha strike. This is not an issue with side pokes (you lose at most 1xERML compared to 2xGR 4xERML build) but it's not something I like when hill poking.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your comment on LFE: I mistakenly thought you were one of those guys that fit an LFE on anything capable of fitting it.

Still, the reason I prefer XL engine on QP is indeed due to maximum speed: in larger maps, being able to reposition faster means you can linger a bit longer in a sniper nest and catch up with the rest of team, or move away to lure one or more enemies further away from the main deathball while maintaining a good safe distance.

I admit that those are niche situations and capitalize on facing brawlers and mid ranged builds from distance greater than their intended optimal range, so fitting a fast engine is a way to ensure it stays that way (and it very likely does not apply in FP, especially in sieges), but in QP I rarely felt a LFE would have saved me or would have changed the outcome of a fight.
Losing half weaponry and somewhat like 1/3rd of your speed is a death sentence in QP anyway. The few cases were I missed a LFE were those unlucky scenarios in which a piranha or a lucky LBX striked my back and basically popped me in a moment... And that's also why I never ever skipped seismic sensors ever since.

#29 Dionnsai

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 10:32 AM

View PostHumble Dexter, on 25 March 2020 - 07:12 PM, said:

Would he have brought that mech without knowing beforehand which mech he was going to face ? No.

Would I have brought my mech and get that map voted knowing what mech he was going to bring ? No.


No one is worried about you, facing you, or what mech you are bringing.
Posted Image

Further, most seasoned pilots spectate matches and twitch streams and learn from their potential opponents.

It would be silly not to, just as it would be silly if professional sports teams, boxers, etc did not study the strategies of their opponents before a match.

Edited by Dionnsai, 26 March 2020 - 10:41 AM.


#30 Kiran Yagami

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 10:35 AM

View PostCarloArmato, on 26 March 2020 - 10:11 AM, said:

Good points about acceleration and deceleration for LFE, but I have to point out that 6xERML warhammers necessarily have to expose "more" mech when poking with 6xERML: the arm mounted ERML are quite low and wide, so you need to expose the whole arms and torsoes to alpha strike. This is not an issue with side pokes (you lose at most 1xERML compared to 2xGR 4xERML build) but it's not something I like when hill poking.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your comment on LFE: I mistakenly thought you were one of those guys that fit an LFE on anything capable of fitting it.

Still, the reason I prefer XL engine on QP is indeed due to maximum speed: in larger maps, being able to reposition faster means you can linger a bit longer in a sniper nest and catch up with the rest of team, or move away to lure one or more enemies further away from the main deathball while maintaining a good safe distance.

I admit that those are niche situations and capitalize on facing brawlers and mid ranged builds from distance greater than their intended optimal range, so fitting a fast engine is a way to ensure it stays that way (and it very likely does not apply in FP, especially in sieges), but in QP I rarely felt a LFE would have saved me or would have changed the outcome of a fight.
Losing half weaponry and somewhat like 1/3rd of your speed is a death sentence in QP anyway. The few cases were I missed a LFE were those unlucky scenarios in which a piranha or a lucky LBX striked my back and basically popped me in a moment... And that's also why I never ever skipped seismic sensors ever since.


In theory, you don't have to expose your arms to poke in the Whammy 6R regardless of build. You just have to be willing to not get all weapons on target. That's 100% AOK if you're trying to minimize return fire. The 6 ERML version just affords you the ability to do 10 extra damage should the opportunity present itself. You aren't forced to use your remaining two arm lasers. It also makes killing UAVs overhead possible. Pitch is a b****.

#31 Brauer

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 12:16 PM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 26 March 2020 - 10:35 AM, said:


In theory, you don't have to expose your arms to poke in the Whammy 6R regardless of build. You just have to be willing to not get all weapons on target. That's 100% AOK if you're trying to minimize return fire. The 6 ERML version just affords you the ability to do 10 extra damage should the opportunity present itself. You aren't forced to use your remaining two arm lasers. It also makes killing UAVs overhead possible. Pitch is a b****.


That, and as I mentioned you can LFE a 4ERML WHM, which gives you much greater survivability than the XL version at the cost of slightly lower speed. Given that gauss love to blow up at the slightest provocation I don't see 9kph as being nearly worth the cost.

#32 LordNothing

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 12:57 PM

sniping is ok if that is what you are actually doing. of course people who stand in one spot at the edge of the map plinking away being a minor annoyance at best, or squirrel food at worst, then thats not sniping. snipers use deadly accurate high lethality shots, change position and repeat, if thats what you are doing, then keep it up. otherwise im ok with fat squirrels.

#33 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 01:34 PM

View PostBrauer, on 26 March 2020 - 12:16 PM, said:


That, and as I mentioned you can LFE a 4ERML WHM, which gives you much greater survivability than the XL version at the cost of slightly lower speed. Given that gauss love to blow up at the slightest provocation I don't see 9kph as being nearly worth the cost.


imo, you can run both just fine. got the lfe/4erml/2x gauss as well as some xl/6erml/2x gauss and they both do well;
I (did) tend to run the xl one in QP more and the LFE in FW against decent opposition;

losing a ST to good aim is painful, but not as painful as losing the whole mech. decent aim in QP is lostech though, so running the XL there is a safer"ish" bet for quite a plus in performance Posted Image

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 26 March 2020 - 01:35 PM.


#34 Gakuseinozen

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 02:46 PM

View PostJadePanther, on 25 March 2020 - 09:38 AM, said:

I give to you this gem with blessings.. I hope you nascar fanbois dont get your panties twisted too hard in the first 20 seconds of the drop alone.. There is a new mouse involved soo give him a little slack for not being up to his normal standards..



Remeber go fast Tuuurn LEFT...



Hey, I was in that match. Well done, and thanks for helping with that Win, Carlo Posted Image

(I think at one point I said in comms "how the hell are we winning this".. and now I know why lol)

Edited by Gakuseinozen, 26 March 2020 - 02:52 PM.


#35 justcallme A S H

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 04:05 PM

View PostHumble Dexter, on 25 March 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's great to have a lrm boat in your team, just not a whole lance of them.

Since when do I bring a whole lance of lrm players with me ? Since never.


That's because no-one invites you to groups because no one wants a dead-weight player.

Better off with PUG Lottery.

View PostHumble Dexter, on 25 March 2020 - 07:12 PM, said:

Last Season I won a random match with LRMs in every division, not recommended but I wanted to demonstrate that it was possible.


And you forget to mention how many games it took to actually get a win?

I mean you probably lost 5-6 games before a win which is tanking your ELO and thus basically ensuring you mean the worst of the worst players in MWO.

Pathetic.



View PostDimento Graven, on 25 March 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:

There's a visual lag such that there's like around a tenth of second (maybe less)difference between what you'd see if you just used 2x zoom vs. advanced zoom.

It's not much of a difference, but if you're aiming for head shots you notice it.

That craptacular custom version of CrysisEngine just doesn't handle it right, even with an nVidia 1080GTX and an OC'd Intel i9 9900k.



lol what? With ADVZ on, if I aim at the head - it hits the head.

No idea what you're talking about with "zoom lag".

#36 justcallme A S H

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 04:11 PM

View PostCarloArmato, on 26 March 2020 - 07:16 AM, said:

I disagree about gauss vomit warhammers being more effective with LE compared to XL.

The best tactic for ranged fight is to poke so fast you won't take damage at all (aka achieve free trades). The faster the engine, the smaller the time frame the opponents can return damage. LE are more forgiving in case someone manages to focus a side torso, but XL engine are faster


You're only 7km/h different between a XL and LFE GaussHammer. 65 vs 58.

The only reason your XL is faster is because you have less ammo/ERML. 4T ammo really isn't enough and thus most people would run XL280 and not XL295.

#37 Vxheous

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 04:21 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 March 2020 - 04:11 PM, said:


You're only 7km/h different between a XL and LFE GaussHammer. 65 vs 58.

The only reason your XL is faster is because you have less ammo/ERML. 4T ammo really isn't enough and thus most people would run XL280 and not XL295.


I was just looking at my Gauss hammer, and I run LFE 280 with only 4 tons gauss ammo. 48 rounds (24 alphas) is enough for a quickplay match to either have won, or have your team steamrolled. I think I only run 3.5 tons on my deathstrike for the same reason

Edited by Vxheous, 26 March 2020 - 04:23 PM.


#38 justcallme A S H

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 04:55 PM

Well there ya go haha, I had 5T - but then I use it in FP more than anything.

With LFE280 it's even less difference. I do run 5 ERML though.

#39 Vxheous

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 05:19 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 March 2020 - 04:55 PM, said:

Well there ya go haha, I had 5T - but then I use it in FP more than anything.

With LFE280 it's even less difference. I do run 5 ERML though.


Yeah, LFE 280 is 65 kph, no big deal at all.

#40 Dimento Graven

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 08:47 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 March 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

...

lol what? With ADVZ on, if I aim at the head - it hits the head.

No idea what you're talking about with "zoom lag".
If you and your target are moving there will be "lag".

I'm not surprised you're arguing the point, after all, I said it so of course you're going to argue.

Anyway, it wasn't me that discovered, I was told about it by another elite, top 1% player. He told me to get rid of it, that I'd be more accurate without it, even beyond 1500 meters, and low and behold he was right.

If you haven't noticed it, maybe you've just gotten good at automatically compensating for the lag.

I suppose it's possible the lag has been fixed, or at least minimized, but given PGI's track record on fixing any of the 'hard' bugs, I kind of doubt it.





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