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Armor Value Data.


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#1 Arugela

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 06:50 PM

I've been trying to figure out how they figure out the armor for mechs. I think I found the basic formula but not yet how they determine which multiplier to use. I wonder if it has to do with how much armor you have to drop to fit things properly. I'm betting there is some logic in the outfitting to describe how they pick this more.

BTW, Armor weights exactly 0.03125 per armor with standard. The total to get ferro for Clan is to divide the weight by 1.2 and not multiply by 0.8. I made this mistake and got wrong values a lot. I assume the same is done for the IS 12% and 6% in which you likely divide by 1.12 and 1.06 respectively from the standard weight.

Armor:

100*5.6=560+54=614

120/1.5=80
120/2=60
560/80=7 (torsos and legs without added stats.)
80*4=360
120*2=240
360/240=1.333333333...


20t 20*5.6+18+8(26)=138

8*6=48+18=66
8*5.5=44+18=62
8*5=40+18=58
8*4.5=36+18=54
8*4=32+18=50
8*3.5=28+18=46
8*3=24+18=42
8*2.5=20+18=38
8*1=8+18=26

138-20*5.6= 26
178-25*5.6= 38
210-30*5.6= 42
238-35*5.6= 42
274-40*5.6= 50
306-45*5.6= 54
338-50*5.6= 58
370-55*5.6= 62
402-60*5.6= 66
422-65*5.6= 58
434-70*5.6= 42
462-75*5.6= 42
494-80*5.6= 46
526-85*5.6= 50
558-90*5.6= 54
586-95*5.6= 54
614-100*5.6= 54

And structure is half of the value of armor once determined. Easy enough. So, armor must be even numbers.

I'm trying to design a superheavy for fun and was trying to figure out how much armor it would have to figure out the needed tonnage. But I still haven't fully figured which values to go with. Or why which multiplier is used for which tonnage. It makes a big difference in available tons for different layouts. Not sure if I should have it at +54 or increase it somehow.

Actually here is some of the data. There is a pattern at first but then it deviates. BTW, the lower the number the more armor is added onto the base.

20/1= 20
25/2.5= 10
30/3= 10
35/3= 11.66666666666666666667
40/4= 10
45/4.5= 10
50/5= 10
55/5.5= 10
60/6= 10
65/5= 13
70/3= 23.33333333333333333333
75/3= 25
80/3.5= 22.85714285714285714286
85/4= 21.25
90/4.5= 20
95/4.5= 21.11111111111111111111
100/4.5= 22.22222222222222222222

I would have to go over each mech and see how the variations effect the total armor and what it matters to the build. That might make it more obvious.

Edited by Arugela, 22 April 2020 - 07:33 PM.


#2 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 08:47 PM

it's actually easy. Your structure is determined by your weight class (except for the head, that's always the same) so a 55 ton Wolverine has as many structure points as a Shadowhawk. Your max armour protection for each component is twice the structure.

#3 Arugela

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 09:26 PM

Yea, but I'm trying to determine what values those are to begin with. Is there a set amount of structure per ton? I thought it was based on armor. This is how it is determined apparently.

I'm messing around making a custom superheavy for fun. So, I'm trying to figure out stuff beyond 100 tons.

Edited by Arugela, 22 April 2020 - 09:27 PM.


#4 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 09:55 PM

There's no formula that I'm aware of, but take alook at this:

https://www.google.c...q_IMOfRBEjApfSp

#5 Horseman

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 11:25 PM

View PostArugela, on 22 April 2020 - 09:26 PM, said:

Yea, but I'm trying to determine what values those are to begin with. Is there a set amount of structure per ton?

There's a set amount of structure for every 5 tons. Google for battletech construction rules and you'll find what you're looking for.

#6 Arugela

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 12:33 AM

Oh, wow they have twice the weight and structure. Interesting. They have much lower structure values though than I would expect.

The armor values for the normale mechs is much lower. What is different in MWO?

https://i.imgur.com/Y5U98PL.png

NVM, I figured it out. It's twice as much. But now I'm confused about the critial slots. Does it add slots on top of halving the slots of items put inside or just one or the other?!

And it seems from my calculations it's the equivilent of a 66 bonus after the formula. So, the formula still works. It's just a matter off which bonus. So a multiplier of 8 in this case.

Manual says 962 if converted to armor and doubled. Apparently the manuals uses half the structure and armor as the MWO.

160*5.6=896+66=962

So, it's fundamentally correct.

I guess that would make it 2.6 and half the bonus. Or a base of 4 instead of 8 for the manuals values.

Edited by Arugela, 23 April 2020 - 12:47 AM.


#7 Horseman

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:14 AM

Yeah, MWO doubled the values because otherwise the mechs were a bit too fragile. Remember - in TT the damage distribution is very random, whereas here we get to target components all the time.

Quote

But now I'm confused about the critial slots. Does it add slots on top of halving the slots of items put inside or just one or the other?!
The number of slots doesn't change. Endo, Ferro and Light Ferro take up a fixed number of slots on the chassis.

#8 Arugela

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 10:05 AM

Why does this book cost 200 dollars.It has the rest of the rules.

https://www.amazon.c...P/dp/1934857882

Does the superheavy get half slots rounded up? I can't figure out all the rules to understand this.

Superheavies are on page 143 from what the intro of the book said.

Is this stuff available for free anywhere. Did they ever release these to read. Or the section needed? I'm not familiar with battletech table top stuff.

Or is that not a rules book?

https://www.google.c...q_IMOfRBEjApfSp

Quote

Head/Cockpit
With more room to work with, the cockpit assembly for these gargantuan machines was reinforced more
effectively. As a result a Super-Heavy ‘Mech has 4 Internal Structure boxes in the head in place of the
standard three. The maximum head armor that may be supported is also greater, the limit now being 12
points. The weight of the cockpit is increased to 4 tons as a result.
Engine

The BattleTech Master Rules has a table of engines that goes up to a maximum rating of 400. Maximum
Tech extends this table up to 500. To fit a powerplant of this size into a ‘Mech requires the use of XXL
Engine technology and marks the ultimate limit of mobile fusion technology.
Critical Spaces

The larger chassis size has more internal space for weapons and equipment. The Left and Right Torso
areas have an additional 6 Critical Spaces.


I don't get this part. Does it add slots on top of having half slots? And the cockpit in this game has more than 4 slots. Is that a difference in the rules? Or are the boxes each two slots? I'm assuming the armor is normaly 9 and increased to 12 and in game would be 18-24. But what is the tonnage part? Does the head weight exist in MWO or is it combined into something else like the engine?

Or is the extra 6 critical spaces in each torso without/in place of the half critical slot rounded up rule?

I'm assuming you can fit non XXL engines also. But need XXL for above 400.

Edited by Arugela, 23 April 2020 - 11:33 AM.


#9 Horseman

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 11:34 AM

View PostArugela, on 23 April 2020 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why does this book cost 200 dollars.It has the rest of the rules.
https://www.amazon.c...P/dp/1934857882
Because it's a ten year old book that's AFAIK out of print.
For the current superheavy mech rules, you want Interstellar Operations: https://www.amazon.c.../dp/1936876043/
You'll need the Tech Manual for the base construction rules and equipment. Some additional equipment and component types were also published in Tactical Operations.

Quote

Does the superheavy get half slots rounded up? I can't figure out all the rules to understand this.
You halve the size of weapons/equipment and then round it up to full slot.

Quote

Is this stuff available for free anywhere.
Not legally, no.

Quote

Or is that not a rules book?
It's an expansion rulebook that's part of a storyline, most of its' contents are scenarios and fluff, with only about 20 pages for the rules and record sheets.

Quote

I don't get this part. Does it add slots on top of having half slots?
That version did. The current rules do not give superheavies additional slots.

Quote

And the cockpit in this game has more than 4 slots. Or are the boxes each two slots?
The rule you're reading refers to head structure hit points as "boxes" because that's what they are on the mech's record sheet. All mechs have six slots in the head, and usually that's two sensors, two life support, one cockpit, one empty - but there are some variations that can move the cockpit to the mech's torso.

Quote

I'm assuming the armor is normaly 9 and increased to 12 and in game would be 18-24.
Correct.

Quote

But what is the tonnage part? Does the head weight exist in MWO or is it combined into something else like the engine?
It's combined into the engine, just as the gyro's weight is.

Quote

Or is the extra 6 critical spaces in each torso without/in place of the half critical slot rounded up rule?
Without. With it applied, the XXL engine takes three slots in each torso.

Quote

I'm assuming you can fit non XXL engines also. But need XXL for above 400.
Correct.

#10 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 03:02 PM

https://store.cataly...l-reckoning-pdf

Many of the books, novels, etc are available in PDF form.

#11 Arugela

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 04:23 PM

Are there any rulesets with jump jets for super heavies? Or about super heavy masc for clan? I was assuming there was a masc5 for clan that gave the 20% bonus missing vs IS. And I saw something listing class 1 jump jets as going up to 200 for this game. Did they consider this in the game already? Can't find the reference anymore. I was just reading about improved jump jets. I'm assuming they don't work for super heavies.

https://mwomercs.com...427-superheavy/ found one of the references to 200t jump jets.

Edited by Arugela, 23 April 2020 - 05:34 PM.


#12 Horseman

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 11:11 PM

View PostArugela, on 23 April 2020 - 04:23 PM, said:

Are there any rulesets with jump jets for super heavies?
Can't find the reference anymore. I was just reading about improved jump jets. I'm assuming they don't work for super heavies.
And I saw something listing class 1 jump jets as going up to 200 for this game. Did they consider this in the game already?
https://mwomercs.com...427-superheavy/ found one of the references to 200t jump jets.
The current rules state superheavy mechs cannot use jump jets.

Quote

Or about super heavy masc for clan? I was assuming there was a masc5 for clan that gave the 20% bonus missing vs IS.
They cannot use MASC either. Also a small note: MASC in tabletop just gives you a boost to the number of movement points, relative only to your top speed, and its size and weight are directly related to your tonnage. Clan MASC is just 20% lighter than the IS equivalent.





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