20 replies to this topic

[Sean Lang]

In the video I propose a few questions, mainly how do you feel about the subject of 8v8/12v12, groups & solo queues being combined etc...

[FRAGTAST1C]

Let solos opt into GQ, not the other way around. This is pretty much non-negotiable, isn't it?

[Snowhawk]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 April 2020 - 09:03 PM, said:

Let solos opt into GQ, not the other way around. This is pretty much non-negotiable, isn't it?

That's also my Suggestion. But Limit the solos in the Group Queue to 2 per side as gap fillers. So the "pugs" can not Flood this Queue. Also you can give this gap fillers some restrictions like the have to activate ingame VOIP and they should have at least played 40 Matches in solo Queue. So Group Queue will not be flooded with Tier 5 Players and you can share your Strategie via Voip with them.
With a bit luck the premade Teams will get some competent gap fillers and of Course Shorter wait times for the Group Queue.

[Monkey Lover]

8v8 is not forgiving. Leave tonnage on the table, have a new player or, someone being afk you might as well quit.

Over all was fun playing mechs again but I think the game is over for me.

[Brauer]

I really think they should just set up a checkbox next to server selection where players can opt into dropping solo into group queue. I think this change will harm the casual and individual player experience because those players who are solo-dropping will be at a disadvantage when compared to players dropping in groups. I like being able to hop into solo queue and have a few casual matches, and my impression is that a fair number of players do this. I also like dropping in groups and I appreciate that FW is currently working and that there is some effort to revive group queue. If this change goes through I don't think I'll see much reason to drop into quick play solo.

I anticipate that a lot of strong players will also form groups and stomp the queue, which won't exactly help the casual experience either. Even adding tonnage restrictions won't make much difference in my opinion. A group of three or four coordinated Vulcans can absolutely dominate a match, AND if there is a harsh tonnage or even chassis restriction people are going to complain that they can't bring the mechs they want when playing as a group.

In my mind allowing solos to opt in to dropping in group queue is ideal at this point as it preserves the casual quick play mode and allows players who want to drop solo in group queue to do so and potentially help revitalize that queue.

[FRAGTAST1C]

I read the main thread that's discussing this and I realized that PGI want to merge solos with GQ while limiting the group to a 4-man but nothing's being done about the PSR system.

[Vorpal Puppy]

Allow solos that meet some minimum avg match score - say 200 or 225 - to opt in, but do not mix queues. That would absolutely kill what's left of this game. A 4-man of good players in unquirked stock urbies would roll most quick-play "teams". There is no balance possible when half the players in QP can't press W and fire their weapons at the same time.

[Black Caiman]

As Monkey Lover mentioned the 8v8 queue is extremely unforgiving. 8-0 stomps are way to common from what Ive seen. Even running an 8 man you can be so tonnage limited that its almost impossible to overcome. Weve run into 6 (five 100 tonners) assaults and 2 heavies with 1 assault, 2 heavies, 4 mediums, and 1 light. We just could not wear down that much armor or absorb that much firepower. Though in fairness this really only occurred once and was a bit of a perfect storm. Also if you go down 0-2 it snowballs incredibly fast. The other issue is if you are a 4 or 5 man and you get saddled with a few dismal players its essentially game over too. That's almost half your team that will contribute almost nothing. Especially when they are coming way under-tonned. It can be fun, but if a strong 8 man drops they will likely clean up if they running meta or near-meta builds. Also if you are a strange number like 5 you can get saddled with a crappy threesome over, and over, and over again. So though Im glad group queue is back this 8v8 version of it has a lot of problems that Im not sure can be fixed very easily.

Id also like to add that, as a member of a large unit, Id be ok with limiting the size of groups to 3 or 4 if it meant more competitive matches. I love my guys, but I find just as much joy shooting at them then as shooting with them. Plus we can get into bigger groups whenever we do comp/faction play so their is plenty of time for that. What I dont like are boring, non-competitive matches. So if it means making four 2-man groups of Rangers Im ok with that if it means a fun match. I think a lot of my unit-mates would agree.

Edited by Black Caiman, 23 April 2020 - 08:45 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Forced merger of group and solo means end of MWO play for me. Until PGI actually develops a reasonable matchmaker (and many people have contributed some very solid matchmaker balancing suggestions on the forums) this shouldn't even be up for discussion. I'm fine if someone wants to opt in to group as a solo player. Hard mode engaged (usually). The MM is painful enough in solo queue, but at least its random.

There seems to be this idea that something must be done about lack of group queue play. I question the whole premise. If there isn't enough interest in group queue to provide reasonable wait times on matches, then group queue isn't really all that important now, is it?

[thievingmagpi]

I for one am glad that the coup-de-grace for this game will come from good players coming back and crushing the remaining playerbase rather than from yet another moronic appeal to the lowest common denominator, balance change or mechanic designed to encourage low skill trash to feel good which seems to have been PGI's methodology for the past few years. Though that too, is on PGI and their desire to destroy their own product.

[Nearly Dead]

I suggest that PGI do a 5 why type analysis of group queue wait time. I don't know enough details to even propose how to get it started but they should know how to do it.

Sometimes called root cause analysis when used in a quality/failure setting. If done right it helps break thru assumptions and group think that can happen when a bunch of people who live with a problem daily try to find solutions to it. It makes you consider your assumptions.

It helps people discover the real problems and helps stop people from settling for more efficient ways to do the same old thing, when the solution is to do something new and different.

[OmniFail]

What happend to group que was a social problem that led to a population problem; and not a population problem in itself. PGI cannot solve this problem; only the players can.

[dario03]

I think an update to the ranking system would make a mixed queue work a lot better. But I also think we should get an update to the ranking system even if the queues don't get mixed.

[Black Caiman]

I think the PSR/ranking system plays a big roll in this as many have mentioned. Most anything in life is tiered putting the elite against the elite and the casual vs the casual. Whether its the NFL, NBA, autoracing, etc, etc. That's why their is a major league and a minor league in most sports. If a better ranking system would lead to this in MWO then everyone would be happier. Its the reason comp play is so compelling because it can be tiered like the the current ToC is. Group queue didn't completely die due to lack of interest, it died because of general population decrease that caused more attrition on the group queue side. Faction queue had met the same fate, but it allowed in solo players and now it unsurprisingly works again. It stands to reason this would fix the group queue as well. Group queue though suffer from the same problem as faction though as its too easy to game the system with a 6-12 man team full of top 1% players. They will clean up unless met with an equal force. Its also no fun for a 6-12 man full of top 20% who buzzsaw a group of new players either though. A-tier needs to play A-tier, B-tier needs to play B-tier, C-tier needs to play C-tier, etc, etc with as little overlap as possible. As Phil mentioned its a multifaceted approach to fixing the problem. Limiting group sizes further to prevent overpowered groups from running everyone off, rating the teams/solo players in queue properly, and then placing them on roughly equal teams. There are probably even more factors then that, but its a good starting point.

[Darian DelFord]

One of the most idiotic moves PGI ever made was going to 12v12 everywhere. Go back to 8v8 even into the solo queue.

[Droolcup Commando]

As a semi-casual player heres my take:
My friend and i linked up for group play and each time a match formed we came across the same same core enemy group that straight up S*** canned us where as the team i was on had literally zero linked unit tags. i think we were seriously 4 2-man groups of friends just looking to play and have fun but nope...not allowed.
Id personally be fine with limited group size teams being allowed in quick play. Even if its just 2 or 3. Enough that friends can play together but not so much that a coordinated full lance can just steam roll a bunch of casual players.

The game is basically on its way out anyway. may as well experiment and see if they can inject some lifeblood into the game in some form. Id certainly play more if i could enjoy it with my bud/s without waiting 10+ mins for match only to get destroyed within 2 mins cause QQ pug team lulz.

[Black Caiman]

Droolcup Commando, on 24 April 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

As a semi-casual player heres my take:
My friend and i linked up for group play and each time a match formed we came across the same same core enemy group that straight up S*** canned us where as the team i was on had literally zero linked unit tags. i think we were seriously 4 2-man groups of friends just looking to play and have fun but nope...not allowed.
Id personally be fine with limited group size teams being allowed in quick play. Even if its just 2 or 3. Enough that friends can play together but not so much that a coordinated full lance can just steam roll a bunch of casual players.

The game is basically on its way out anyway. may as well experiment and see if they can inject some lifeblood into the game in some form. Id certainly play more if i could enjoy it with my bud/s without waiting 10+ mins for match only to get destroyed within 2 mins cause QQ pug team lulz.

I think you could have the best of both worlds if the PSR/matchmaking was improved, and teams were limited to 2-3 like Phil was mentioning. Then, even if their are 6 EMPs on, they will almost certainly get divvied up on two separate teams unless their is another ultra-competitive unit running too. Granted you may still get caught in the crossfire of these two, but at least you aren't getting absolutely rolled by their combined forces.

[East Indy]

I suggested limiting mixed queues to a day or two. Russ tweeted about a "test" a day or two after. There's no harm in trying this out in a restricted way.

As for PSR: Phil, do you still have an amicable relationship with PGI? Can you ask why PSR hasn't been reset with adjusted reward values that gate players according to skill? We're just talking about changing those eight-ish values Paul highlighted in 2015.

It used to be said that this would increase wait times, but there's no longer any serious argument that population supports matches within 1 or 2 tiers. Today, players in 90th+ percentile are regularly matched with sub-50th percentile, and in that state, the matchmaker should at least be splitting the four 80th percentile guys and the two 20th percentile guys instead of jumbling them up on the same teams because Tier assignment is blind. I mean, we have the bell curve right here.

[R Valentine]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 April 2020 - 09:03 PM, said:

Let solos opt into GQ, not the other way around. This is pretty much non-negotiable, isn't it?

This is the only solution that makes sense. It would be a monumental mistake to put 4-man into 12v12 QP. That essentially means that solo queue would no longer exist. Let solo players opt into group queue to fill spaces where the math is bad. Don't even consider putting 4 mans in QP. That's unbelievably stupid.

[Nearly Dead]

I play QP and am pretty new, (1200 hours or so since mid December) but I have seen enough to know that while I am willing to try playing with groups in QP, if they don't give me the choice of opting out if it sucks; I have that option already via the Steam store and all the games I have not played yet.

Hell, I have a Steel Panthers World at War disc around here somewhere.

And no matter what, fixing the tier ranking system must happen regardless, unless the lights really are going out soon.

It is either messed up or was designed to do something other than generate competitive matches. Maybe it is like clothing sizes, designed to make the customer feel better about themselves rather than reflecting measurable reality. Well, as they say on another forum, "The math doesn't care about your feelings, the math only cares about the math."