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Bring Scouting To Qp.

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#1 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 03:10 AM

Well, scouting is dead in FW, let's bring it to QP and save all that hard work......

With a few tweaks it's not too hard to make Scouting work for QP:
  • Standard 12v12 format
  • Use the conquest capture locations as the "drop zones" (both teams get a drop zone)
  • Replace capture locations with Leopard drop-ships
  • Populate the map with Intel beacons
  • Limit mechs to picking up and dropping off one beacon at a time

    (All these features are in place/exist within MWO already)
As for how to win:
  • First team to capture half the data-points wins (When the last enemy mech is destroyed all remaining data-points are added to your teams score).
  • Team with most data points on time-out wins
Nice and simple, you can still play it on skirmish but it also offers more. With the random nature of nodes, Lights are required to scout and find them (as well as the enemy) and Assaults have the role of map control, denying clusters of beacons to the enemy while the aforementioned lights cap them and bring them back to base.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 21 May 2020 - 07:00 AM.


#2 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 03:36 AM

Are you sure you want to do that? It's bad enough that we have Assaults capping base and what-not. Do we really need Assault pilots queuing up to gather Data beacons and fighting over comms about it?

#3 HammerMaster

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 05:17 AM

4v4 scout has great match turn around and some of the best matches I have played. Just add it as is.

#4 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 05:19 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

Are you sure you want to do that? It's bad enough that we have Assaults capping base and what-not. Do we really need Assault pilots queuing up to gather Data beacons and fighting over comms about it?


I doubt assaults will be running beacons, I've yet to see one doing so on incursion. Although I'm sure someone out there has tried.

I imagine in the endgame we might see assaults capping, but then it's a case of deciding where your odds lie, can you cap faster than the enemy or will you attempt to kill them and secure all the remaining caps.

Most "boring" scenario I envisage is a legged dire-wolf trying to catch a stealth-flea running caps. Of course, in that scenario the Dire could always set-up over watch on the dropship location and try take him out on delivery. I mean, if people want to advocate for pure dropzone camping you could always lose the leopard.

#5 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 05:29 AM

View PostHammerMaster, on 21 May 2020 - 05:17 AM, said:

4v4 scout has great match turn around and some of the best matches I have played. Just add it as is.


It would have to be as a straight 12v12 unless we're splitting queues.... which wouldn't happen.

The issue with current Scouting is it has an attacking and defending side which resulted in smoke diving; but all they would have to do to avoid that is stop the intel dropping if an enemy mech is already in the zone. It's a simple fix to stop cheese wins.

#6 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 05:39 AM

I'm impressed someone has better ideas then PGI on how to finish off MWO faster.

#7 Zirconium Kaze

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM

Unrelated but because the thread triggered me, maybe there should be a mechanic that rewards people who keep sights on the enemy even if they're like 700 meters away and not firing. After all, they keep them on the map providing valuable intel, but as it stands if you actually spend a substantial amount of time being a spotter, your score and c-bills don't show it.

Edited by Zirconium Kaze, 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM.


#8 Mont

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

It's bad enough that we have Assaults capping base

You know I totally want to make a lance of atlases and go capping now. Posted Image
Seems fitting as a steiner loyalist, to have a proper scout lance.

Edited by Mont, 21 May 2020 - 06:09 AM.


#9 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:11 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 21 May 2020 - 05:39 AM, said:

I'm impressed someone has better ideas then PGI on how to finish off MWO faster.


Any particular reason you feel that way?

View PostMont, on 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM, said:

You know I totally want to make a lance of atlases and go capping now. Posted Image
Seems fitting as a steiner loyalist, to have a proper scout lance.




#10 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:26 AM

yes, bring scouting back.

NO to everything else. it belongs in the fw-department, and it can do without the yolo-solos.
best scouting matches where 4people who knew what they're doing vs 4 equals.

pugs can pug in yolo-q, that the reason it exists in the first place.

#11 Xiphias

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:42 AM

The problem I see with this is that in 12v12 it would lead to really short matches and pretty much make taking a slow mech like an assault a liability. Even on the biggest maps it takes at most a few minutes for a lance of lights in scouting to gather enough intel to win. The asymmetric design forces one team to focus on killing (and control intel to help do so) and the other team usual just fights because it's more fun that capping and diving.

In a cap half and the game ends, there's very little incentive to fight, just grab a quick cap and then run to the next one. A Commando or Flea can probably cap 3-5 points before an Atlas or Annihilator can get their first one. Without the kill focus, there's no reason to not cap intel as the defender currently needs to do to lure in the attackers.

So, either the game ends really quickly with no real fighting or it ends up being a focused fight over the last intel point. I just doesn't seem to really be a viable mode for what most people enjoy about the game (killing mechs).

View PostZirconium Kaze, on 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM, said:

Unrelated but because the thread triggered me, maybe there should be a mechanic that rewards people who keep sights on the enemy even if they're like 700 meters away and not firing. After all, they keep them on the map providing valuable intel, but as it stands if you actually spend a substantial amount of time being a spotter, your score and c-bills don't show it.

Spending a substantial amount of time being a spotter (rather than doing damage) is almost always more detrimental to your team than helpful. If the target is taking LRM damage there are rewards for that. While it is of some use, mechs that are far away can often just be ignored while the closer targets are getting killed. If you aren't actively removing targets from the map it's of limited usefulness to the team, it just makes it a 11v12 (or similar). Much better to be a fast mover or ranged mech that actually goes and puts damage on the target, instead of just spotting it. Damage + spotting is better than just spotting.

#12 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 06:58 AM

View PostXiphias, on 21 May 2020 - 06:42 AM, said:

The asymmetric design forces one team to focus on killing (and control intel to help do so) and the other team usual just fights because it's more fun that capping and diving.


Thanks for the feedback. Just realised I didn't specify that both teams would have a drop-off point for intel. The idea was for the game to play symmetrically. To avoid the issue you picked up on.

#13 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 07:19 AM

View PostXiphias, on 21 May 2020 - 06:42 AM, said:

In a cap half and the game ends, there's very little incentive to fight, just grab a quick cap and then run to the next one. A Commando or Flea can probably cap 3-5 points before an Atlas or Annihilator can get their first one. Without the kill focus, there's no reason to not cap intel as the defender currently needs to do to lure in the attackers.

So, either the game ends really quickly with no real fighting or it ends up being a focused fight over the last intel point. I just doesn't seem to really be a viable mode for what most people enjoy about the game (killing mechs).


Given that mechs now have to run back and forth between the drop-zone to capture intel individually instead of chaining nodes it would make a straight cap rush risky. Sure, 4 locusts rushing caps could probably turn the game faster than anticipated but by the time they've ran back and forth a few times those assaults could be in a position waiting for them.

Optimal strategy would be for the lights to to rush the nodes furthest away first and capture the ones closest to their base last as their main force is duking it out. But then you end up with lights fighting lights all over the place. Most games will probably end with the usual death-ball but if there's mechs capping you can't afford to ignore them.

#14 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 07:26 AM

nah, we have incursion and/or conquest for the capping stuff, if you so like it;

scouting = 4 vs 4; it was great fun for the people that enjoyed it, it doesn't belong into your 12v12 yolo-q nonsense.
you either go teamplay, or you go rotatoe-queue. no point in p1ss1ng off fw-players further.

#15 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 07:31 AM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 21 May 2020 - 06:11 AM, said:

Any particular reason you feel that way?


View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 21 May 2020 - 07:26 AM, said:

nah, we have incursion and/or conquest for the capping stuff, if you so like it;

scouting = 4 vs 4; it was great fun for the people that enjoyed it, it doesn't belong into your 12v12 yolo-q nonsense.
you either go teamplay, or you go rotatoe-queue.


#16 Brauer

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 08:09 AM

View PostZirconium Kaze, on 21 May 2020 - 06:08 AM, said:

Unrelated but because the thread triggered me, maybe there should be a mechanic that rewards people who keep sights on the enemy even if they're like 700 meters away and not firing. After all, they keep them on the map providing valuable intel, but as it stands if you actually spend a substantial amount of time being a spotter, your score and c-bills don't show it.


That just sounds like unnecessarily bleeding armor. It's fine for a mech to peek out very briefly to find out where the enemy is while out of range, but doing so in a sustained fashion is a good way to get torn up and DD.

#17 Anomalocaris

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 08:49 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 21 May 2020 - 05:39 AM, said:

I'm impressed someone has better ideas then PGI on how to finish off MWO faster.


I said it on the other thread (merge FW with Soup), merge everything. If you're gonna go out, go out big. Do the biggest, stupidest, more counterproductive **** you can think of. And like you said, it takes effort to screw things up even more than PGI has, so kudos if you can come up with a way to do it.

Let it all burn.....

#18 VonBruinwald

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 10:03 AM

View PostAnomalocaris, on 21 May 2020 - 08:49 AM, said:

Do the biggest, stupidest, more counterproductive **** you can think of.


New event:
Score 100 Damage - Get a founders mech
Score 200 Damage - Get a gold mech
Score 300 Damage - You see where this is going.....

#19 Xiphias

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 10:13 AM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 21 May 2020 - 06:58 AM, said:

Thanks for the feedback. Just realised I didn't specify that both teams would have a drop-off point for intel. The idea was for the game to play symmetrically. To avoid the issue you picked up on.

To be clear, I was saying that the current scouting mode gives incentive to fight. I think this is a good thing. A symmetric mode would be more focused on capping.

View PostVonBruinwald, on 21 May 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

Given that mechs now have to run back and forth between the drop-zone to capture intel individually instead of chaining nodes it would make a straight cap rush risky. Sure, 4 locusts rushing caps could probably turn the game faster than anticipated but by the time they've ran back and forth a few times those assaults could be in a position waiting for them.

Optimal strategy would be for the lights to to rush the nodes furthest away first and capture the ones closest to their base last as their main force is duking it out. But then you end up with lights fighting lights all over the place. Most games will probably end with the usual death-ball but if there's mechs capping you can't afford to ignore them.

So if I understand what your suggesting, it's basically a mix between incursion and scouting mechanics. My apologies, I didn't read the OP carefully enough. The problem I have with this (an incursion) is that it leads to a lot of running back and forth with little to no fighting. Shuttle power in incursion isn't fun, at least not for most players.

Any game mode needs to have a focus on combat to keep players interested. Conquest does this well by forcing players to hold caps. Get to a location, obtain local superiority, cap point, move to the next spot. It's dynamic and doesn't have a lot of wasted movement (most times). Running back to your base isn't fun because you are moving away from the enemy. The mode needs to encourage multiple fights, not just splitting up.

It's not as bad of an idea as some people in this thread are making it out to be, but I also don't think it would be particularly fun or popular with the community. I play lights quite a bit and I certainly don't want to shuttle nodes all match, just because that's the best way to win the game mode. 1v1'ing someone over a cap point is fun. Running nodes for 5 minutes is boring.

I'd rather have something like triple domination where there are multiple circles and you need to try and control the majority of them in some fashion (e.g. cap 2 of 3 or get more total time on all of them). Could be even better in something like FP. It gives the players clear locations to go, it requires tactical decisions to split up forces, and it forces players to hold ground to maintain the caps rather than just cap and run. If you deathball to one circle you lose on caps, but if you split forces you risk getting overwhelmed and losing on kills.

PGI has conquest mode and domination modes already, so from a technical standpoint I think this should be possible?

#20 LordNothing

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 11:03 AM

merge all the modes.





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