28 replies to this topic

[Thorqemada]

When the Streakcat was dangerous, collisions still in da game and the limit the sky:

[Bistrorider]

Cool. Didn't know that mechs were falling down in beta. Good penalty for collisions.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

thx a lot, now I got that song in my head for the next hours ..

[Hellbringer]

why does the graphics look better in beta? why do the missiles look better in beta? why does the mechs move and react like real robits instead of like a quake fps shooter guy? you can tell the original guys who made the beta put a lot of heart into it...

[JediPanther]

Back when the game was fun and exciting. Rip 35t.

[Thorqemada]

Predatorvision and Gauss with no charge mechanic...

https://www.youtube....?v=viGH1y528EU#

[Nesutizale]

There are two things that are more interesting. How missiles fly and the damage glow.
The falling down from collissions lead to mechbowling / mechdomino. We don't need that. What could have been interesting would be falling from a certain amount of damage in a certain timeframe or when you loose a leg but IIRC MW4, I think it was, right that lead to a tactic that was pretty annyoing and I know that because I constantly used it.

Either shoot the leg and let them fall or build your mech in a way that it triggers falling constantly. Whoever landed the first shot would win automaticly because the other guy never has a chance to get back up. Very boring battles.
I am happy that we got the shackeing of mechs but not the falling.

[Thorqemada]

Mechbowling would not be a thing if it did the damage right which means to both Mechs involved though i feel positional accuracy may be not good enough in a mmo to build a gamemechanic around that.

Legging is a thing that can be very boring or very exciting depending on the mechanic - i feel MWO is on the better side here.

[N a p e s]

Oh man... this is before I even started but I remember those early matches where mech selection was pretty limited. Or when turning a corner and seeing a Streakcat was terrifying.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

[YueFei]

Nesutizale, on 03 June 2020 - 01:54 AM, said:

There are two things that are more interesting. How missiles fly and the damage glow.
The falling down from collissions lead to mechbowling / mechdomino. We don't need that. What could have been interesting would be falling from a certain amount of damage in a certain timeframe or when you loose a leg but IIRC MW4, I think it was, right that lead to a tactic that was pretty annyoing and I know that because I constantly used it.

Either shoot the leg and let them fall or build your mech in a way that it triggers falling constantly. Whoever landed the first shot would win automaticly because the other guy never has a chance to get back up. Very boring battles.
I am happy that we got the shackeing of mechs but not the falling.

Even the screen-shake we have in MWO from weapon impacts is purely cosmetic. Compare this with MW3 and MW4's mechanics, where being hit actually shoved your aim-point around. And when you fired ballistic weapons, you actually experienced recoil effects that also threw off your aim-point.

Falldown/knockdown mechanics could've been physics-based with player agency. That's the key here, is to allow player agency. For example, bracing yourself for a collision by rolling your shoulder and leaning into it. Or, crouching as they come at you ("low man wins"). For weapon impacts, you could react to weapons fire hitting you by stepping in the opposite direction to avoid being knocked down by its impact. Etc. The key here is to give the player a chance to react correctly, and if they do that, they stay on their feet.

Chain knock-down could be solved by having mechs get-up in a crouched position by default, a position from which they cannot be knocked down, but where they are largely immobile.

[Nesutizale]

Screenshake and recoil would be a nice thing to have also they shouldn't be to heavy.

As for the knockdown...don't overcomplicate things. While the idea is nice on paper MWO was never a simulator but a team shooter. Maintaining a certain flow of the action is necessary. Should you implement it that way it would be to hard to controle. Remeber that you need to map all those controls somehow. Also I bet there will be some people that will use that to troll around by using light mechs not to win the game but just to force people to fall and blow themself up in the process.
That would hurt your own team more then it helps and I don't need such people in my team.

About the chain knockdowns...well sure you could have them stand up in the prone stance but a nearly immobile mech is a dead mech so that helps only a very little. Also he has to get up at some point or die where he stands so he kick him back on his behind just a bit later.

[YueFei]

Nesutizale, on 03 June 2020 - 04:06 PM, said:

Screenshake and recoil would be a nice thing to have also they shouldn't be to heavy.

As for the knockdown...don't overcomplicate things. While the idea is nice on paper MWO was never a simulator but a team shooter. Maintaining a certain flow of the action is necessary. Should you implement it that way it would be to hard to controle. Remeber that you need to map all those controls somehow. Also I bet there will be some people that will use that to troll around by using light mechs not to win the game but just to force people to fall and blow themself up in the process.
That would hurt your own team more then it helps and I don't need such people in my team.

About the chain knockdowns...well sure you could have them stand up in the prone stance but a nearly immobile mech is a dead mech so that helps only a very little. Also he has to get up at some point or die where he stands so he kick him back on his behind just a bit later.

How would it be hard to control? It's rather intuitive, and utilizes controls we already use. Lean into a charge (mouse already controls the torso). Move your feet with an impact (we already have throttle control for forward/backward motion). If you get hit "laterally" (perpendicular to your legs' axis of movement), since it's across both legs, you're fully stable and won't fall down. Impacts approaching from front/rear arcs are the ones that have the potential to knock you down, but not from the side. Do it right and you'll never fall down, simple as that. That's what player agency is.

Also, prone != crouching. This just means as you get up, by default, you're braced in such a way that means you flat-out cannot be knocked down. You're free to stand back up to your full height as soon as you've got situational awareness, and are ready to lean your torso into anyone charging at you.

[MrMadguy]

Thorqemada, on 27 May 2020 - 03:10 AM, said:

When the Streakcat was dangerous, collisions still in da game and the limit the sky:

Yeah, that old sweet slower matches on smaller maps. I joined this game, right when Open Beta started, i.e. not long after that moment.

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 June 2020 - 02:21 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Streaks 2 (that was the only Streak available.. IS mechs) primary aim was the CT, iirc. And on mechs with spare tonnage/space, etc Atlas (limited # of assaults folks) streaks were added to deal with pesky lights (no massed MG..)

[Nesutizale]

YueFei, on 03 June 2020 - 08:15 PM, said:

How would it be hard to control? It's rather intuitive, and utilizes controls we already use. Lean into a charge (mouse already controls the torso). Move your feet with an impact (we already have throttle control for forward/backward motion). If you get hit "laterally" (perpendicular to your legs' axis of movement), since it's across both legs, you're fully stable and won't fall down. Impacts approaching from front/rear arcs are the ones that have the potential to knock you down, but not from the side. Do it right and you'll never fall down, simple as that. That's what player agency is.

Also, prone != crouching. This just means as you get up, by default, you're braced in such a way that means you flat-out cannot be knocked down. You're free to stand back up to your full height as soon as you've got situational awareness, and are ready to lean your torso into anyone charging at you.

Even if you want to do it that way, without actualy braceing yourself and just have a directional collision check, knowing where your legs are at any given time relative to the enemys approach vector is difficulte, except you use the arrow pointer and even then its hard. I say 90% of players can't tell you, while under fire or aiming at an enemy, what angle relative to their torso their legs are. Sure they will know, my torso is twisted to the left but how much and is it enough to lean into a charge?
Where do you draw the line what is leaning into a charge? Perfect 90 degree? 120? Somewhere you have to do that and if the angle is to big its useless because all charges are blocked and if its to narrow its useless too because every charge will knock you down.

Also there is torso and turning speed. Even if you spot the light or medium that is chargeing you, you might not be able to turn in the way needed because you need the time to do so.
Now add these small stealth armor guys that get overlooked oh so often and then you have the accasional teammate that will knock you down because he isn't looking where he is going.

Prone - crouching - potato -potata....I am talking about waiting for you to get up and then shot you down again.
As I said I did that in MW allready and its the pest for the enemy. You knock him down and look how he struggles to get up, maybe move out of his firing arc and just the moment he is back up...boom he is down again.
Used a lovely LBX20, dual UAC10 build and while I could kill people faster with it, it was just to much fun exploiting that mechanic.

Never ever do I want that again. When it became more and more common practice it was just an terrible experiance for all.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 June 2020 - 03:46 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Collision damage/ramifications is needed. When I play a slow assault and a tiny 20 tonner comes whizzing by at 3 times my speed and slams into my legs like a drunken dog - instead of stopping me dead in my tracks (pun intended) I want him crushed. Yes, I am talking about “friendly” lights that collides with you and prevent you from reaching cover in time.

[Bistrorider]

I don't think they will do that. Collision damage and all in multi game may end with disaster. But mechs which fall over after collision is a great feature imo. I would like to see it in MWO again. This way any collision will have consequences and players will have to learn how to move without fall into each other. Cool thing in terms of honing piloting skills.

[Nesutizale]

Before that implement a 360 view because how often do you slam into a friendly because you couldn't look to the rear or sides because you are focused at the guy shooting at you. Do you now realy want that you and another teammate fall and/or damage each other in that kind of situation?
Adding to that you both will be easy targets that can't fight back.

Like when you peak around a corner and suddenly there is an enemy that you haven't seen before. You want to go back in cover but now there is a teammate that thought you want to push so he followed you.
You both will collide and end up on the floor for the enemy to get one maybe two easy kills....at best he just takes some shots and damages you but its still damage you couldn't prevent.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 June 2020 - 07:16 AM.

[Bistrorider]

Yeah, you right. It might also end with disaster. So maybe fall over at big speed? Like 100kp/h. But then lights may have some nasty problems. So it may badly affect the gameplay. Maybe I'm too excited about that option. Looks cool in beta but right now... Maybe it's better not mess with that. You convinced me. Collisions already had some consequences.

[YueFei]

Nesutizale, on 04 June 2020 - 03:44 AM, said:

Even if you want to do it that way, without actualy braceing yourself and just have a directional collision check, knowing where your legs are at any given time relative to the enemys approach vector is difficulte, except you use the arrow pointer and even then its hard. I say 90% of players can't tell you, while under fire or aiming at an enemy, what angle relative to their torso their legs are. Sure they will know, my torso is twisted to the left but how much and is it enough to lean into a charge?
Where do you draw the line what is leaning into a charge? Perfect 90 degree? 120? Somewhere you have to do that and if the angle is to big its useless because all charges are blocked and if its to narrow its useless too because every charge will knock you down.

It's not a valid argument to say that players can't figure out which way their torso and legs are facing, when that's a basic skill requirement to even play the game in the first place. My 8 year-old niece only needed like 10 minutes to figure out how to tell her legs apart from her torso, for crying out loud.

Someone approaching from your front arc? I darn well hope you see them coming, because if your situational awareness is so poor that someone approaching from your front gets the drop on you, you deserve to be bowled over.

Someone approaching from your rear arc and you never saw them coming? You deserve to be tackled.

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Also there is torso and turning speed. Even if you spot the light or medium that is chargeing you, you might not be able to turn in the way needed because you need the time to do so.
Now add these small stealth armor guys that get overlooked oh so often and then you have the accasional teammate that will knock you down because he isn't looking where he is going.

Dude, if we're expecting players of a decent proficiency to be able to torso twist within the ~500 millisecond window of enemy weapons fire in order to shield and take hits on the arms or "dead-side", surely we can expect players to react in time to twist/pitch against a physical charge. Even at near point-blank-range (say, 40 meters), you have nearly 1 second against even the fastest mechs to react in time.

If you truly lack the situational awareness to figure out which way to turn your legs and/or twist/pitch your torso, just pull your mech into a crouch.

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Prone - crouching - potato -potata....I am talking about waiting for you to get up and then shot you down again.
As I said I did that in MW allready and its the pest for the enemy. You knock him down and look how he struggles to get up, maybe move out of his firing arc and just the moment he is back up...boom he is down again.
Used a lovely LBX20, dual UAC10 build and while I could kill people faster with it, it was just to much fun exploiting that mechanic.

Never ever do I want that again. When it became more and more common practice it was just an terrible experiance for all.

How are you gonna get knocked down again as you get up into a crouch? Do you not understand that in the system I'm proposing, you're immune to knockdowns as you get up in a crouch? Enemies can shoot you all they want as you get up into a crouched position, and continue to blast you or physically ram you once you're up in that crouched position, but you won't fall. I also said your mobility would be hampered, not totally removed. You can still turn, torso-twist, and shuffle around slowly, but you're not going to be running around at full tilt.