18 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Suppose all the Match Score PSR suggestions to date have major flaws, and also suppose that there is a WLR-based MM solution that will work (at least no one is managing to present flaws), which would you prefer?

A Match Score system that is no better than what we have today, or a WLR system that will work but will knock you down if your team is unluckily bad. (Suppose that a MS solution will improve things from 15% good matches today to 20%, and a WLR solution will improve it to 50%) Which would you pick?

Please like the post in the link if you agree: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6337632



Details (may cause headaches!)

Match score solutions so far have the problem that
1) the PSR will go off to +- infinity for good bad players
2) the rate people go off is determined by number of games played, not skill
3) if we cap the PSR movements, people will stop at the cap like Tier 1 today
4) is as time progresses, moving between tiers is harder and harder

WLR solution:
https://mwomercs.com...thread-we-need/
Based on this thread, just set PSR=WLR (vary how many past matches WLR is based on 20-100) and you'll get much better matches. This change will be transparent to the users, keep the PSR EXP bar on the frontend. Only the MM in the backend will need to know it to make better matches. This is to prevent an unlucky loss from bothering the player.

A related thread to explain why MS is not a good predictor when used the same way:
https://mwomercs.com...and-suggestion/
Finally using WLR is not the best I can come up with, adding other factors such as mech tonnage, weapons range, map, and game mode is definitely possible, but PSR=WLR is the easiest

Edited by Nightbird, 10 June 2020 - 07:26 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

We don't have the player population to do anything correctly anymore.

Most players will be better off with the system we have now. They get to win around 50% of games and they get to kill a few mechs when they get on the side of the steam roll.

If you get a balanced game you're going to see the top players on each side killing everyone else.

Most player think they want a balanced game because its going to make it better on them but really its going to make it worse on everyone but the top players in the match.


For the game I say leave it alone, people don't know what they're asking for.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 June 2020 - 08:27 PM.

[Nightbird]

Even if the number of stomps is reduced by half?

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 09 June 2020 - 08:28 PM, said:

Even if the number of stomps is reduced by half?

People say they don't want stomps but really they do. Without these stomps 50% of the players on the winning side don't get any kills and normally die right way.

Paul said stomps are about 33% now. So basically 33% of the matches allow the potatoes to have fun.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 June 2020 - 08:35 PM.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 09 June 2020 - 08:31 PM, said:

People say they don't want stomps but really they do. Without these stomps 50% of the players on the winning side don't get any kills and normally die right way.

Paul said stomps are about 33% now. So basically 33% of the matches allow the potatoes to have fun.

Wow ok, that's an interesting way to look at it. More stomps would be better. I guess you can put the best players on one team and have stomps 100% of the time? xD

[ccrider]

The problem I see is that all the calculations are based on flawed numbers. Shouldn't things like kill efficiency and components destroyed carry more weight? Right now, farming an enemy with inefficient damage is better for match score and PSR than quickly killing or disabling enemies. Personally id rather have the guy doing 150-200 dmg per kill on my team than someone doing 600+ to get a kill but the match score thinks the second guy is better. WL is fine as a simple fix but with merged queues6 it's really just gonna benefit 4 man teams steam rolling solos.

[Nightbird]

ccrider, on 09 June 2020 - 08:41 PM, said:

The problem I see is that all the calculations are based on flawed numbers. Shouldn't things like kill efficiency and components destroyed carry more weight? Right now, farming an enemy with inefficient damage is better for match score and PSR than quickly killing or disabling enemies. Personally id rather have the guy doing 150-200 dmg per kill on my team than someone doing 600+ to get a kill but the match score thinks the second guy is better. WL is fine as a simple fix but with merged queues6 it's really just gonna benefit 4 man teams steam rolling solos.

MS benefits groups much more because of the limited number of kills to go around, MS earning is limited, but WL earning in unlimited.

People in groups tell me that grouping up doesn't change avgMS earned but greatly increases wins. In other words, MS method will weigh 4 solos with 300 MS average the same as 4 people grouped up with 300 MS average, yet we know the latter will win more. WLR is the only way to go to fix that.

Edited by Nightbird, 09 June 2020 - 08:47 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 09 June 2020 - 08:36 PM, said:

Wow ok, that's an interesting way to look at it. More stomps would be better. I guess you can put the best players on one team and have stomps 100% of the time? xD

You can't have too many stomps or you high level players are not happy. Its a balance. The 1/3 we have now isn't to bad.

Again, people say they hate stomps but they really they don't mind it 50% of the time when they're on the killing side.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 June 2020 - 08:48 PM.

[ccrider]

Nightbird, on 09 June 2020 - 08:44 PM, said:

MS benefits groups much more because of the limited number of kills to go around, MS earning is limited, but WL earning in unlimited.

People in groups tell me that grouping up doesn't change avgMS earned but greatly increases wins.

I agree that a/l is unlimited I just think that the benefits of that system will be greater for those grouped up rather than solo playing. A mediocre 4 man in complimentary mechs can absolutely roll through a QP match against 12 solos. Hell, we went 5-0 this weekend in cataphract 0xps because we were all going same speed with same weapons and those aren't even close to meta mechs.
.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 09 June 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

You can't have too many stomps or you high level players are not happy. Its a balance. The 1/3 we have now isn't to bad.

Again, people say they hate stomps but they really don't mind it 50% of the time when they're on the killing side.

I probably can't convince you this but I created the proposal to make the average and lower skilled level's players' experience better at the expensive of skilled players losing more. I hope the graphs show that

Edited by Nightbird, 09 June 2020 - 08:49 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 09 June 2020 - 08:48 PM, said:

I probably can't convince you this but I created the proposal to make the average and lower skilled level's players' experience better at the expensive of skilled players losing more. I hope the graphs show that

There is no convincing needed that you can do it but the question is do you want to and if so how much. For example, they "leveled" the player field when they adjusted pin point weapons a few years back.

When does the skilled player stop playing because they don't feel its fair anymore?


Right now a stomp,balanced,mix games system we are using allow all levels of players to get some kills and wins on average.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 June 2020 - 09:00 PM.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 09 June 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

When does the skilled player stop playing because they don't feel its fair anymore?

Why would you want this? Any more than wanting an unskilled player to stop playing?

Fairness is having both teams having as close to a 50:50 win chance as possible at the start of a match. It means anyone outperforming expectations can have a meaningful contribution to the team winning. It means the chances of one side saying 'ggclose' to troll the other team after a 12:0-1-2 stomp is reduced by 70-80%. If that is not the right direction I don't know what is.

Edited by Nightbird, 09 June 2020 - 09:09 PM.

[Ekson Valdez]

Please discuss changes to PSR in the appropriate thread: psr-update-and-hold-on-patch
We can't have several places where ideas on the same topic are discussed.

[Nightbird]

Thanks for not locking thread, that discussion thread is a little too cluttered

[LordNothing]

the biggest flaw with psr was that it was never meant to sort players by skill, it served as a placebo and a way to protect noobs. even paul's original plan would have been an improvement. they should have rolled it out anyway, since it was already good to go, and if it didnt work it could be replaced again. rapid iteration has its merits.

as for op's question you cant use one or the other method, you need to account for both. match score is how much work you do and w/l is whether or not that work paid off. wins do factor into match score though. so use match score, but increase the ms payout for winning (by a lot, like a factor of 4 at least, it should be the highest possible ms contributor). still i wish they would have gone with the original plan and watched the outcome.

i worry a pure w/l system would lead to lethargic play.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 June 2020 - 03:20 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone with basic self-awareness, (i.e. someone who uses empirical evidence to determine that they are a decent player relative to others rather than someone who just wants to believe they are decent player) would be the least bit bothered about having an unlucky streak and being dropped down a tier. You get dropped down, then you just giggle while you slaughter teams while you are in the incorrect tier until you rise back up?

I think the trouble is everyone thinks they should be in the highest tier regardless of how they play, think they are being punished if they aren't, and also claim to want fair matchmaking despite the obvious fact that they would be hurting the MM's ability to make fair teams if they were placed into the tier they want... #damnhumans.

[ShooterMcGavin80]

WLR is the best way to go.

[Nightbird]

Capt Deadpool, on 10 June 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone with basic self-awareness, (i.e. someone who uses empirical evidence to determine that they are a decent player relative to others rather than someone who just wants to believe they are decent player) would be the least bit bothered about having an unlucky streak and being dropped down a tier. You get dropped down, then you just giggle while you slaughter teams while you are in the incorrect tier until you rise back up?

I think the trouble is everyone thinks they should be in the highest tier regardless of how they play, think they are being punished if they aren't, and also claim to want fair matchmaking despite the obvious fact that they would be hurting the MM's ability to make fair teams if they were placed into the tier they want... #damnhumans.

Great point, getting dropped due to bad luck streak is a great way to get some easy matches

[Monkey Lover]

Ekson Valdez, on 09 June 2020 - 09:48 PM, said:

[mod]Please discuss changes to PSR in the appropriate thread: psr-update-and-hold-on-patch
We can't have several places where ideas on the same topic are discussed.[/mod]

Why not? Im not talking to pgi about it. I'm talking to the few people in the thread. It's not like mwo general is full of topics like 5 years ago.