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Mech Variants By Name Only


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#1 Peace2U

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 09:31 AM

I had a notion that PGI/EPIC did not really put the effort into each mech designation within a chassis model, so I proceeded to test my theory by equipping 2 different variants with the same load outs.

I choose to do this with the Shadowhawk, since I already had a 2D when I ran across a 2D2 in the market.
Purchased the 2D2 and equipped it with the same components that were already in my 2D.
According to Sarna, I should have ended up with 2 extra tons of armor and an additional free ton of weight saved due to removing the SSRM's and replacing them with standard SRM's.

Here is the Sarna data:

NOTE: the base model 2H starts out with 9.5 tons of armor. SHD-2D Another First Succession War variant born of the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns' desperation prior to the Kentares Massacre, the field refit 2D dramatically increases the close range capabilities of the Shadow Hawk at great cost to its armor. Introduced in 2796 the 2D reduces the armor protection by five tons and adds a second SRM-2 launcher to the center torso, doubles the number of SRM missiles split between left and right torsos, and an additional medium laser in the left arm. While carrying superior firepower, the loss in armor leaves the 'Mech far too vulnerable for open combat, and those units which use it typically hold the 'Mech in ambush to unleash a devastating first volley before retreating. SHD-2D2 The 2D2 is an upgrade of the -2D Shadow Hawk introduced in 3049, born of the Federated Commonwealth buying original-model 2Hs from Majesty Metals and refitting them for use by militia forces or for sale to mercenaries. Like the 2D this upgrade adds another SRM launcher to the center torso and a medium laser to the left arm, however both center torso and head launchers are Federated SuperStreak Streak SRM-2s. Besides carrying slightly more armor, a total of six and a half tons, and one ton of Streak ammo in the right torso, it is otherwise identical to the 2D Shadow Hawk. After equipping the 2D2 to match the load out of the 2D, I discovered the two mechs were a mirror image of each other. All specs were identical This indicates that PGI/EPIC has not put the time into making each chassis unique. I have to wonder how many rubber stamped chassis there are in the game? If anyone else has run into this with other mech chassis, please feel free to add the data to this thread. Maybe the developers will actually add the modifications to a future patch. Peace

#2 letir

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 11:25 AM

View PostPeace2U, on 21 June 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

Purchased the 2D2 and equipped it with the same components that were already in my 2D.

View PostPeace2U, on 21 June 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

I should have ended up with 2 extra tons of armor and an additional free ton of weight saved due to removing the SSRM's and replacing them with standard SRM's.


Wut?

#3 Peace2U

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 07:12 PM

I apologize if my initial post was unclear.
It contained a lot of technical specs., which is dry reading, and I understand why you may have been confused.

First off, The 2D2 is built with more armor than the 2D
Secondly, SSRM's are 1/2 ton heaver than standard SRM's x2 = 1 ton less weight if I swapped them out.
Bottom line, the 2D2 should have shown higher total armor and I should have had an extra ton of usable weight to use for ammo, heat sink, or other modification.
The specifications are clearly spelled out on Sarna.

* My concern is that instead of the developers providing unique builds, they appear to be 'rubber stamping' some chassis variants and just using the same base specs while providing a different chassis name that should be equipped differently.
Peace

#4 letir

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:17 AM

It's "equped differently" because "old" lore variants love to strap armor to half of the value for additional tonnage. It's justified by being factory produced for specific tasks.

When you read "added more armor" it usually means that 'Mech dropped tonnage in weapons or added any advanced technology as "new, improved variant". They don't get higher total armor or additional free armor (as MWO quirks).

#5 Zacharias McLeod

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:16 AM

The 2D has 14 Heatsinks and 2t SRM Ammo.

The 2D2 hast 12 Heatsinks and 1t SSRM Ammo.

This is the different.

1t to upgrade the SRM to SSRM and 2t more armor.


https://mwo.smurfy-n...b#i=153&l=stock

https://mwo.smurfy-n...b#i=111&l=stock

PS:
The 2DS use the 2H as basis chassis (buying original-model 2Hs from Majesty Metals and refitting....) so the 12 Heatsinks are the original equipment for the 2DS. And the 2H has also only 3t ammo on board (2D has 4t ammo).

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 22 June 2020 - 09:04 AM.


#6 Peace2U

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 02:47 PM

<p>Thank you, Zach.</p>
<p>I missed the reduction in ssrm ammo to make up for the additional weight of the ssrm launchers.</p>
<p>However, SARNA only pointed out the increase in armor vs the 2D. Also, there is no mention of any difference in heat sinks between the original 2H, the 2D, and 2D2 from SARNA specifications???</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here is the data I was going by:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<dl>
<dt>
SHD-2D </dt>
<dd>
Another First Succession War variant born of the <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Federated_Suns" title="Armed Forces of the Federated Suns">Armed Forces of the Federated Suns</a>' desperation prior to the <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kentares_Massacre" title="Kentares Massacre">Kentares Massacre</a>, the field refit 2D dramatically increases the close range capabilities of the <i>Shadow Hawk</i> at great cost to its armor. Introduced in <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/2796" title="2796">2796</a> the 2D reduces the armor protection by five tons and adds a second <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM-2" title="SRM-2">SRM-2</a> launcher to the center torso, doubles the number of SRM missiles split between left and right torsos, and an additional medium laser in the left arm. While carrying superior firepower, the loss in armor leaves the 'Mech far too vulnerable for open combat, and those units which use it typically hold the 'Mech in ambush to unleash a devastating first volley before retreating.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-FSW-160_11-1"><a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk#cite_note-FSW-160-11">[11]</a></sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-TRO3039_5-7"><a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk#cite_note-TRO3039-5">[5]</a></sup> BV (1.0) = 765, BV (2.0) = 899<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-14"><a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk#cite_note-14">[14]</a></sup></dd>
</dl>
</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>
<dl>
<dt>
SHD-2D2 </dt>
<dd>
The 2D2 is an upgrade of the -2D <i>Shadow Hawk</i> introduced in <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/3049" title="3049">3049</a>, born of the <a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Federated_Commonwealth" title="Federated Commonwealth">Federated Commonwealth</a> buying original-model 2Hs from Majesty Metals and refitting them for use by militia forces or for sale to mercenaries. Like the 2D this upgrade adds another SRM launcher to the center torso and a medium laser to the left arm, however both center torso and head launchers are Federated SuperStreak Streak SRM-2s. Besides carrying slightly more armor, a total of six and a half tons, and one ton of Streak ammo in the right torso, it is otherwise identical to the 2D <i>Shadow Hawk</i>.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-TRO3050_6-2"><a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk#cite_note-TRO3050-6">[6]</a></sup> BV (1.0) = 896, BV (2.0) = 1,049<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-17"><a href="https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk#cite_note-17">[17]</a></sup></dd>
<dd>
<p> </p>
<p>I guess I was looking for more 'uniqueness' between variants in MW5.</p>
It seems that if Smurfy is mirroring MWO builds, and that MW5 is utilizing MWO specs., the developers have been ignoring the canon from the beginning.</dd>
<dd>
Peace</dd>
</dl>
</li>
</ul>


#7 Zacharias McLeod

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 07:14 PM

View PostPeace2U, on 22 June 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

I guess I was looking for more 'uniqueness' between variants in MW5.

It seems that if Smurfy is mirroring MWO builds, and that MW5 is utilizing MWO specs., the developers have been ignoring the canon from the beginning.


You are wrong the Shadowhawk are canon.

You can not get 3t more for the 2D2 from thin air. You have to reduce something. In this case 2 HS and 1t ammo (if you compare the 2D2 and the 2D).

This is the canon for more than 30 years BT history. Sarana is not the holy bible of BT it is only a fansite. The record sheets give you the equipment of the canon variants.

#8 Peace2U

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 05:18 AM

I stand corrected, Zach, and letir.
You are absolutely right about the 'thin air' comment.
A 55 ton mech can only carry 55 tons of mass.
I am not a battletech follower, and was introduced to it when I purchased and played the original MechWarrior for PC with its fantastic EGA graphics, polygon 3D rendering, and 1st person view battles.
The interactive story line drew me in, and I enjoyed the challenge of defeating the bad guys and restoring my character's family name.
I stumbled across SARNA and have been using it as a reference since, but now that you have pointed out that it is not actual data, and just a 'fan site', I will defer to your knowledge.
Thank you very much for your time and setting me straight on this.
Peace, Out.

Edited by Peace2U, 26 June 2020 - 05:20 AM.


#9 Zacharias McLeod

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 06:29 AM

Even the source books list not all details for all variants because they simply have not the space for all details.

Also there are some errors in the books. So the record sheets are the best source for the equipment.

SARNA is a good BT Wiki but they can not use the source book content 1 to 1. They have to change the texts a little bit. And like I said some of the old texts have misstakes or simple miss some details.

#10 Nesutizale

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 08:58 AM

And then there are translation errors and other stuff. Like its the TRO 3050 in english and 3052 in german and the TRO 3055 in english and german have partial different content.

Oh and don't get me started on the confusion of nameing. Some mechs have 4 different names in german. IS English/German + Clan English/German.

#11 Peace2U

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 04:26 PM

I had no idea.
Is this the result of certain licensing issues I have read about, like Harebraind, for example?

Edited by Peace2U, 10 July 2020 - 11:47 PM.


#12 General Solo

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Posted 13 July 2020 - 02:24 PM

The mech description is most likely for the first variant produced, the original.
imo
Other variants get produced if the original variant is a success, expanding on a successful design.

Or some times the original may not be so good, but the mechs basic design might have potential, so another variant may be produced to correct the short coming of the original not so good variant.

I don't think an entire model variant up line of a mech chassis was available immediately on the first day a mech was released
Just saying

#13 Nesutizale

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Posted 14 July 2020 - 01:54 AM

View PostPeace2U, on 26 June 2020 - 04:26 PM, said:

I had no idea.
Is this the result of certain licensing issues I have read about, like Harebraind, for example?


I am not quite sure what the reason was for the changes in detail. From what recall there was a seperate license for Battletech in germany that, funny enough, even got missing at some point. That resulted in the odd thing that when Mechwarrior Dork Age was comming out it was still possible to release new Battletech content in germany because the rights that where bought by Wizkids didn't include the german license.

Got that from a retailer where we bought our BT stuff and he wasn't sure how and if he would get new stuff in at all because there was this "grey" area now with no one realy knowing who had what.

As for the nameing differances...I bet that comes from the trend that was going on back then to "germanfy" everything. They still do it with some movie titles. Either by changeing the title or giveing it a stupid extra title.
Sometimes the translations are okay and sometimes a 1:1 translation is just funny.


Some examples for strange nameings

Grim Reaper --> "Grimmer Schnitter" what is correct but is a term that was used about 300 years ago.

Timerbwolf / Madcat --> Waldwolf / Katamaran....Katamaran from Katapult (Catapult) and Marodeur (Marauder)...shouldn't that be KataDeur?

Vulture / MadDog -> Geier / Bluthund....Vultur/Geier is correct but a Bluthund is a Bloodhound not a MadDog





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