Jump to content

Weird Psr Observations


37 replies to this topic

#1 Paigan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blazing
  • The Blazing
  • 2,789 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 01:49 PM

I'm not whining or flaming here, just some weird observations.

The new PSR usually works quite okay.
We win and I did well, I go up.
We lose, I go down.
We lose and I did quite well, I stay the same or even go up.

So far so good.

But confusingly often, I have games like this:
- I helped ensure the win tactically (scout, cap, press enemies into cover, distract them, shoot down a lot of UAVs, deploy a UAV, etc)
- I kill an enemy Mech or have 1-2 KMDD and several kill assists.
- I did moderate damage (because, hey, I aim. I kill efficiently)
We win (yay!)

...aaaaand I go down.

Wait, what? Why? I did a good part in winning the match.
I did not just spray 500 LRM damage over all enemies with hardly any effect.
Why am I punished?

#2 Aidan Crenshaw

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 3,563 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 01:57 PM

You are not punished. PSR is not a reward. You were simply outperformed by enough other players in that match.

#3 Paigan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blazing
  • The Blazing
  • 2,789 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 02:02 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 06 July 2020 - 01:57 PM, said:

You are not punished. PSR is not a reward. You were simply outperformed by enough other players in that match.

Okay, "punished" is the wrong term. But by picking on that, you miss my point.

#4 John Bronco

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Fighter
  • The Fighter
  • 966 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 02:20 PM

Sounds like you didn't do enough shooting relative to your teammates. There is general agreement that the current scoring methodology places too much weight on raw damage, but killing enemy mechs will always be the most important thing you can do, and the weight for that (kill/kmdd/solo) may even increase in the future.

#5 VonBruinwald

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Undisputed
  • The Undisputed
  • 3,460 posts
  • LocationRandis IV

Posted 06 July 2020 - 02:45 PM

View PostBlaizerP, on 06 July 2020 - 02:20 PM, said:

Sounds like you didn't do enough shooting relative to your teammates. There is general agreement that the current scoring methodology places too much weight on raw damage, but killing enemy mechs will always be the most important thing you can do, and the weight for that (kill/kmdd/solo) may even increase in the future.


This!

PSR is primarily determined by MS,
MS is primarily determined by damage dealt.

Too much emphasises is placed on damage.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 06 July 2020 - 02:45 PM.


#6 Tarl Cabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Tai-sho
  • Tai-sho
  • 7,643 posts
  • LocationImperial City, Luthien - Draconis Combine

Posted 06 July 2020 - 03:29 PM

And by Damage, 50% of the damage is applied to the MS. 300 - team damage /2 = 150 MS pts (minus team damage). 100 dmg = 50 MS pts.

Regardless of mode, each drop is usually won by putting the opponent down first with the exception of Conquest/Assault, where the team with most players alives ignored the cap points.

Anyhow, here is the link to Paul;s post and the chart being used, compared to others. Initially when Paul was looking at a PSR change because the original one was not even equal in PSR added/removed lose vs win and player were clambering about a changing it after the group solo merged queues. When he was going to change it to the same thresholds, it would have also meant that high scorer players would not move up at all but break even on a loss.

https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/

And as for the OP, you primarily run an assault, and for July all drops but one as an assault, scouting and capping should not even be there. Assault with an avg 202 MS whereas previous Jarls list has it avg 303 MS for time played so far. If I read it correctly, you are not boating LRMS, so is it GR/ERLL/ERPPC and at "sniping/long range", to where there is very little armor sharing and/or your positioning is so off you are left as the last man standing?

Again, some of the above is based on what you said you are doing tactically, and your W/L ratio is currently breaking even with only 11 kills out of 20 games. As an assault pilot, moderate damage?

Again, perception. What are your two favorite assault builds and how are you utilizing them in most situations? And how have you changed what you do, or do you believe you should change, in the new combined solo/group queue?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 July 2020 - 08:13 PM.


#7 Hellbringer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Point Commander
  • 177 posts
  • LocationVancouver BC

Posted 06 July 2020 - 04:27 PM

Don’t do that Tarl.

I don’t like how a lot of you instantly jump to an individual’s leaderboard performance. It doesn’t really add or take away from OP statements. His stats doesn’t justify his actual in game performance because many of us (myself included) mess around in quick play. I use it to level my mechs and try out strange builds.

Im not saying your analysis is wrong I just think we should take people’s word and just address his question at hand without jumping down his stats and using it as evidence of his performance.

No disrespect, just see this a lot in the community and it’s annoying. First thing people like to do is jump on jarls and then berate people with their stats.

#8 Tier5 Kerensky

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 2,049 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 05:56 PM

View PostPaigan, on 06 July 2020 - 02:02 PM, said:

Okay, "punished" is the wrong term. But by picking on that, you miss my point.


Match score is mostly about damage.

Also, the PSR system is not based on individual matches. Outcome and PSR movement of any individual match can be whatever happens. It's completely irrelevant. No system could be such, where in each individual match, the system would properly adjust PSR ratings of each individual. So you just got to accept it.

#9 Vorpal Puppy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 250 posts

Posted 06 July 2020 - 08:30 PM

There is still the outsized bonus given to AMS for shooting down missiles. Was in a Polar drop filled with LRM boats on the enemy side and AMS boats on my side. We won, but it was the only down arrow I remember seeing on a win even with 2 kills and 500+ damage.

#10 Tarl Cabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Tai-sho
  • Tai-sho
  • 7,643 posts
  • LocationImperial City, Luthien - Draconis Combine

Posted 06 July 2020 - 08:55 PM

View PostHellbringer, on 06 July 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

Don’t do that Tarl.

I don’t like how a lot of you instantly jump to an individual’s leaderboard performance. It doesn’t really add or take away from OP statements. His stats doesn’t justify his actual in game performance because many of us (myself included) mess around in quick play. I use it to level my mechs and try out strange builds.

Im not saying your analysis is wrong I just think we should take people’s word and just address his question at hand without jumping down his stats and using it as evidence of his performance.

No disrespect, just see this a lot in the community and it’s annoying. First thing people like to do is jump on jarls and then berate people with their stats.


Agreed. - removed. not needed.

OP, even without the PSR reset, with the mixing of Group/Solo, teams are more often to be more aggressive than before, and this can also be dependent on the group portion of that team. And also dependent on how well the rest of the team follows along. Thus, being in an assault and getting caught out of position or having the battle move away or out of from your POV will also have an effect, provided this is what is happening.

As for AMS adding to MS score, it takes several AMS hits to destroy a missile, it is not a 1 to 1 ratio. And from a couple of drops in private match and allowing the timer to run out, it is taking approximately 7.0x AMS destroyed missiles to generate 1 MS pt.

Private match. Skirmish for a tied game so no W/L points to be rewarded. And running out of AMS ammo. All the nova did was destroyed missiles faster, as I had to wait longer for that drop to end. And since it takes multiple AMS hits to destroy a missile, AMS will fire to hit a missile that is destroyed before it can hit it, or hit a missile that is not destroyed and gets through the AMS screen.

2200 AMS (no Skill points)

361 AMS missiles destroyed

51 MS

Nova 3 AMS

4400 AMS used (no skill points)

552 AMS missiles destroyed

78 MS


Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 July 2020 - 03:41 AM.


#11 Jman5

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 02:49 AM

View PostPaigan, on 06 July 2020 - 01:49 PM, said:

Wait, what? Why? I did a good part in winning the match.
I did not just spray 500 LRM damage over all enemies with hardly any effect.
Why am I punished?


Post a screenshot of the your matchscore plus the full breakdown on the other page (middle column) and I can tell you why you went down.

#12 Ignatius Audene

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,161 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:13 AM

The problem with dmg is, it is hard to replace in ms formula. Kill->woah kill secured even harder, kmdd->benefits dps(lurm) and only benefit the guy top dmg (I got 100dmg player 2 105 -> no points). There is no easy answer to this. Personally I see a bigger problem in skill independent ms like ams, lance in formation etc.) (The influence on winning is debatable)

#13 Sjorpha

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,472 posts
  • LocationSweden

Posted 07 July 2020 - 05:23 AM

Yep that's why wlr should be the only metric, captures all kinds of contributions.

#14 ShiverMeRivets

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • 520 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 10:40 AM

View PostIgnatius Audene, on 07 July 2020 - 03:13 AM, said:

The problem with dmg is, it is hard to replace in ms formula. Kill->woah kill secured even harder, kmdd->benefits dps(lurm) and only benefit the guy top dmg (I got 100dmg player 2 105 -> no points). There is no easy answer to this. Personally I see a bigger problem in skill independent ms like ams, lance in formation etc.) (The influence on winning is debatable)


I consider number of components destroyed as the best indicator of valuable damage inflicted.

This should get the largest weight in MS, more than raw damage.

#15 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 10:51 AM

View PostShiverMeRivets, on 07 July 2020 - 10:40 AM, said:

I consider number of components destroyed as the best indicator of valuable damage inflicted.

This should get the largest weight in MS, more than raw damage.


Then a pilot who destroys both arms, both torsos, a leg, and then the CT earns 6pts, and a pilot who only destroys the CT earns 1pt. Is the former 6x better than the latter? No. The former is worse. MS is somewhere between useless and terrible.

Edited by Nightbird, 07 July 2020 - 11:19 AM.


#16 Kubernetes

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blazing
  • The Blazing
  • 2,369 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 12:47 PM

View PostNightbird, on 07 July 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:


Then a pilot who destroys both arms, both torsos, a leg, and then the CT earns 6pts, and a pilot who only destroys the CT earns 1pt. Is the former 6x better than the latter? No. The former is worse. MS is somewhere between useless and terrible.


Yeah the problem with MS is that it can be gamed with huge amounts of ineffective damage. A lurmboat putting out 1k in a match contributes far less to winning than a direct fire mech that does 600. Freaking spuds in Veagle ATM boats can rocket up the leaderboards just by pumping out the dmg.

#17 Nesutizale

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 3,239 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 01:29 PM

I allways wonder what will happen to those who try to game the system by the mentioned methode, like LRMing, when they actualy start to play normal. Shouldn't they drop again?

So they either have to keep playing the LRMer forever from now on or they could just play normal and not try to game the system to reach a Tier they don't belong and will be kicked out from again anyway.

#18 Mal Bolge

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 02:26 PM

I've also seen some strange PSR movements. I was in a winning match but I did really poorly, only 175 MS, yet my PSR still went up. Even at T3 I would have expected that I would go down with such a poor performance.

#19 Jman5

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:02 PM

View PostNesutizale, on 07 July 2020 - 01:29 PM, said:

I allways wonder what will happen to those who try to game the system by the mentioned methode, like LRMing, when they actualy start to play normal. Shouldn't they drop again?

So they either have to keep playing the LRMer forever from now on or they could just play normal and not try to game the system to reach a Tier they don't belong and will be kicked out from again anyway.


I'm curious about these people too. My gut says when they start losing a lot more and their PSR begins to decline, many of them will just rage quit from the game with some random excuse about how their teams suck or whatever. Maybe some will create alt accounts to preserve their ill gotten gains.

You know guys. I know people have conflicting opinions about AMS, but if ya'll really wanted to drive out the damage farmers from Tier 1, you would equip an AMS on your mech. Every missile you knock down is one less point of damage they could have done and more points for you to drive up the average Matchscore. ATMS and clan LRMs are particularly susceptible.

Just sayin! Posted Image

#20 martian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,580 posts

Posted 07 July 2020 - 11:29 PM

View PostPaigan, on 06 July 2020 - 01:49 PM, said:

I'm not whining or flaming here, just some weird observations.

The new PSR usually works quite okay.
We win and I did well, I go up.
We lose, I go down.
We lose and I did quite well, I stay the same or even go up.

So far so good.

But confusingly often, I have games like this:
- I helped ensure the win tactically (scout, cap, press enemies into cover, distract them, shoot down a lot of UAVs, deploy a UAV, etc)
- I kill an enemy Mech or have 1-2 KMDD and several kill assists.
- I did moderate damage (because, hey, I aim. I kill efficiently)
We win (yay!)

...aaaaand I go down.

Wait, what? Why? I did a good part in winning the match.
I did not just spray 500 LRM damage over all enemies with hardly any effect.
Why am I punished?


1) The most important part of your Match Score is your damage output and number of kills. Other activities such as scouting, capturing, etc. are nice, but they are all secondary concern.

2) You are not being punished. The negative change of your PSR means that you were not as good as other members of your team and the best enemy players.
The old system, that meant that if you were on the winning side and did at least 100 DMG and your PSR went up automatically, is no longer present.

But do not take it personally. I have had some relatively good games and yet my PSR went down even on win, simply because other players on our side and one or two enemies had better scores. So I know how you feel.

3) Think about equipping your 'Mech with AMS. You get Match Score points for shooting down LRMs, so AMS means better MS for you. Some 'Mechs can even mount 2-4 AMS and thus inflate their MS even more ...





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users