26 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Try hard.





















aware it's been mentioned at some point, but come on. it's an xml edit.

[Jackal Noble]

idk, maybe since it can not carry any 20 or HG series weapons instead give it something like +10% accel/decel, or armor + structure, or AC cooldown, or idk how about anything but a ER PPC HSL when it only has 2 energy hard points?????

Perhaps it is forbidden. Maybe it was meant to be a ppc + gauss quirk, but was haphazardly implemented.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 09 July 2020 - 03:00 AM.

[martian]

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 02:53 AM, said:

Try hard.
aware it's been mentioned at some point, but come on. it's an xml edit.

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 02:58 AM, said:

idk, maybe since it can not carry any 20 or HG series weapons instead give it something like +10% accel/decel, or armor + structure, or AC cooldown, or idk how about anything but a ER PPC HSL when it only has 2 energy hard points?????

Perhaps it is forbidden. Maybe it was meant to be a ppc + gauss quirk, but was haphazardly implemented.

This is nothing new.

I remember when PGI gave HGN-733P Highlander a ballistic quirk despite HGN-733P having no ballistic hardpoints at all.

[Nesutizale]

Are PPC and Gauss not in the same ghost heat calculation? Also I doubt that the one PPC will give you that much heat problems anyway.

[Jackal Noble]

Le Sigh.

It is not about the ghost heat. It is the fact that the mech itself is a 100 ton assault and it's only real weapon quirk is an HSL+ that is not possible.

Yes you can fire a single ppc and two gauss - there is still ghost heat which adds up. The quirk is intended for a mech that has 3 or more energy hardpoints and can utilize 3 ppcs.

[martian]

Nesutizale, on 09 July 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

Are PPC and Gauss not in the same ghost heat calculation? Also I doubt that the one PPC will give you that much heat problems anyway.

In this particular case I remember PGI first wanting to punish jump-sniping Highlanders and later Clan 'Mechs running Clan Gauss Rifle and Clan ER PPCs.

But the ghost system is so complicated now ...
I must admit that without a thorough check-up I am often not quite sure what weapon combinations are allowed or punished and why.

[Jackal Noble]

The point of the post was to say that maybe the 4L could have a different, more useful quirk?

[D V Devnull]

Okay... Quoting everyone in so they'll see my answer...

---

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 02:53 AM, said:

Try hard.

<<<image from https://i.imgur.com/vluR48I.jpg>>>

aware it's been mentioned at some point, but come on. it's an xml edit.

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 02:58 AM, said:

idk, maybe since it can not carry any 20 or HG series weapons instead give it something like +10% accel/decel, or armor + structure, or AC cooldown, or idk how about anything but a ER PPC HSL when it only has 2 energy hard points?????

Perhaps it is forbidden. Maybe it was meant to be a ppc + gauss quirk, but was haphazardly implemented.

martian, on 09 July 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

This is nothing new.

I remember when PGI gave HGN-733P Highlander a ballistic quirk despite HGN-733P having no ballistic hardpoints at all.

Nesutizale, on 09 July 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

Are PPC and Gauss not in the same ghost heat calculation? Also I doubt that the one PPC will give you that much heat problems anyway.

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 03:37 AM, said:

Le Sigh.

It is not about the ghost heat. It is the fact that the mech itself is a 100 ton assault and it's only real weapon quirk is an HSL+ that is not possible.

Yes you can fire a single ppc and two gauss - there is still ghost heat which adds up. The quirk is intended for a mech that has 3 or more energy hardpoints and can utilize 3 ppcs.

martian, on 09 July 2020 - 03:47 AM, said:

In this particular case I remember PGI first wanting to punish jump-sniping Highlanders and later Clan 'Mechs running Clan Gauss Rifle and Clan ER PPCs.

But the ghost system is so complicated now ...
I must admit that without a thorough check-up I am often not quite sure what weapon combinations are allowed or punished and why.

Hello there, Jackal... It would seem you're aware about Gauss and PPC happening to currently have a Linked Ghost Heat Penalty Group connected to their potentials. But, you're staring at the Stock Loadout for the Marauder II's MAD-4L, and PGI has been trying to encourage usage of some of those in the past few years, particularly through things like Ghost Heat Scale Limit (GHSL, for short) Quirks of one kind or another. However, it has been shown in the past that people will do some insane things with their Loadout Changes, resulting in some OverPowered combinations. Thus, that's where the Quirk you're seeing – which alleviates some of that – happens to come into play. Instead of being hit with the Greater GHSL Penalty from the ER PPC Family, you're only getting hit by the Lesser GHSL Penalty from the Gauss Family and not having your Mech put into Auto-Shutdown when your Alpha Strike fires off. That particular Mech's internal Loadout does NOT have the in-built Heat Sinks to handle the generated heat from an Alpha Strike on it's own. Otherwise, everyone would always change the Mech away from the Stock Loadout upon purchase, because the default setup would have been worthless. That particular added Quirk is literally the only thing preventing the Stock Loadout from being without meaning, and some of what has resulted in this situation has already been noted up above, including previous Abuses of those Weapon Systems on other Mech configurations.

Put simply, the ER PPC GHSL Quirk is there because it has to be, otherwise the possible Heat could get treated like firing off a 3x ER PPC set instead, which would just be no fun at all. And yet, PGI still wanted to tip their hat to the Stock Loadout and be kind to the players who wanted to play it unmodified, or perhaps with only the Armor shifted.

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 04:09 AM, said:

The point of the post was to say that maybe the 4L could have a different, more useful quirk?

The particular set of Quirks which you see was only put there to prevent the Mech from being a complete lemon on the battlefields. More than likely, that was only put there begrudingly because of trying to not make the Stock Loadout a meaningless build. Otherwise, that Stealth Armor on its' own makes the Mech a serious threat, and combined with anything other than the Stock Loadout would make the Mech effectively OverPowered to an unwarranted extent. Sadly though, we can't expect any other Quirks to appear, simply because of the Stealth Armor potential with any other configuration.

I know I'm pulling a pin on an awful grenade of thought, but what kind of Quirks would you have wanted to see on the Marauder II's MAD-4L Variant to be played with?


~Mr. D. V. "I know you won't acknowledge it, but underlying GHSL Rules are the cause of what you see here." Devnull

[KodiakGW]

Structure quirks....LOL

[letir]

ER PPC have same heat group as Gauss Rifle, and similar projectile speed. So you can use dual Gauss + single PPC to achieve pinpoint alpha damage.

Like this:

[Brauer]

As I understand it you will not have to tank ghost heat of any kind when alphaing an ERPPC and 2 gauss on this mech. Go test it. The easy way to do it is to fire one peep in training grounds or a lobby to. Record the max heat %. Then fire all three together. Record the heat percent. Since gauss do have 1 heat you might end up producing like 1 or 2% more heat when you alpha, but it won't be the huge increase you'd see on another chassis.

EDIT: The more questionable quirk is giving a 100 ton assault a stealth cooldown quirk. Talk about a useless quirk...

Edited by Brauer, 09 July 2020 - 04:56 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

D V Devnull, on 09 July 2020 - 04:23 AM, said:

Okay... Quoting everyone in so they'll see my answer...

---

Hello there, Jackal... It would seem you're aware about Gauss and PPC happening to currently have a Linked Ghost Heat Penalty Group connected to their potentials. But, you're staring at the Stock Loadout for the Marauder II's MAD-4L, and PGI has been trying to encourage usage of some of those in the past few years, particularly through things like Ghost Heat Scale Limit (GHSL, for short) Quirks of one kind or another. However, it has been shown in the past that people will do some insane things with their Loadout Changes, resulting in some OverPowered combinations. Thus, that's where the Quirk you're seeing – which alleviates some of that – happens to come into play. Instead of being hit with the Greater GHSL Penalty from the ER PPC Family, you're only getting hit by the Lesser GHSL Penalty from the Gauss Family and not having your Mech put into Auto-Shutdown when your Alpha Strike fires off. That particular Mech's internal Loadout does NOT have the in-built Heat Sinks to handle the generated heat from an Alpha Strike on it's own. Otherwise, everyone would always change the Mech away from the Stock Loadout upon purchase, because the default setup would have been worthless. That particular added Quirk is literally the only thing preventing the Stock Loadout from being without meaning, and some of what has resulted in this situation has already been noted up above, including previous Abuses of those Weapon Systems on other Mech configurations.

Put simply, the ER PPC GHSL Quirk is there because it has to be, otherwise the possible Heat could get treated like firing off a 3x ER PPC set instead, which would just be no fun at all. And yet, PGI still wanted to tip their hat to the Stock Loadout and be kind to the players who wanted to play it unmodified, or perhaps with only the Armor shifted.




The particular set of Quirks which you see was only put there to prevent the Mech from being a complete lemon on the battlefields. More than likely, that was only put there begrudingly because of trying to not make the Stock Loadout a meaningless build. Otherwise, that Stealth Armor on its' own makes the Mech a serious threat, and combined with anything other than the Stock Loadout would make the Mech effectively OverPowered to an unwarranted extent. Sadly though, we can't expect any other Quirks to appear, simply because of the Stealth Armor potential with any other configuration.

I know I'm pulling a pin on an awful grenade of thought, but what kind of Quirks would you have wanted to see on the Marauder II's MAD-4L Variant to be played with?


~Mr. D. V. "I know you won't acknowledge it, but underlying GHSL Rules are the cause of what you see here." Devnull

Hi there Devnull,

I'm honored that you thought it be necessary to provide your interesting perspective in a manner that gives a peculiar inflection that only you could provide.

I tried really hard to make it simply clear that the quirk of ER PPC HSL was incorrectly allocated for the MAD-4L and still to my pleasant surprise it was mistakenly interpreted.

To the other fellow that then provided a video that, yes you can in fact fire both a single ppc and 2 gauss rifle - cheers. That proves nothing other than the fact that is understood for those that actually understand the heat mechanics of the game. News flash - you can do that with basically any mech that can sufficiently carry 2 gauss and a ppc. See the Night-Gyr, RiflemanIIC, Ebon Jaguar, King Crab, Dire Wolf, Madcat MK II, Warhawk, Fafnir, Atlas, Corsair... etc etc. The point is that the HSL does not transfer over to the MAD-4L running a 2 Gauss, PPC combo and as such is succinctly defunct.

So please, realize that this is a misplaced quirk and needs to be replaced with a functional one.
Thank you for my patience.

[letir]

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

News flash - you can do that with basically any mech that can sufficiently carry 2 gauss and a ppc.

No, you can't.

PPC and Gauss Rifle taking single Heat Penalty group.

Trying to shoot 2 GR + ER PPC will cause extreme heat spike on the 'Mech. This is why MAD 4L have HSL quirk.

Quirk working as intended.

Edited by letir, 09 July 2020 - 05:07 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Brauer, on 09 July 2020 - 04:56 AM, said:

As I understand it you will not have to tank ghost heat of any kind when alphaing an ERPPC and 2 gauss on this mech. Go test it. The easy way to do it is to fire one peep in training grounds or a lobby to. Record the max heat %. Then fire all three together. Record the heat percent. Since gauss do have 1 heat you might end up producing like 1 or 2% more heat when you alpha, but it won't be the huge increase you'd see on another chassis.

EDIT: The more questionable quirk is giving a 100 ton assault a stealth cooldown quirk. Talk about a useless quirk...

If indeed that is the case, perhaps it should be more clear. Was looking at the mech's base quirks and found them to be quite obtuse.

Yea the stealth quirk is akin to giving a mech a light gauss quirk.

letir, on 09 July 2020 - 05:06 AM, said:

No, you can't.

PPC and Gauss Rifle taking single Heat Penalty group.

Trying to shoot 2 GR + ER PPC will cause extreme heat spike on the 'Mech. This is why MAR 4L have HSL quirk.

Quirk working as intended.

Ok, I will. I have run a 2 gauss, 1 ppc night gyr just fine.
The fact of the matter, is if that is the case then clarify it. The quirk says IS ERPPC HSL when the mech has two energy hardpoints. good lord.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 09 July 2020 - 05:08 AM.

[RickySpanish]

It may have something to do with the fact that on their own, Gauss Rifles generate no heat, so perhaps the heat spike from normally firing 2 gauss and 1 ppc is based on the ppc. Therefore, to correctly mitigate the ghost heat from that combo, the ppc hsl quirk is applied despite the 'Mech having only two energy hard points.

[letir]

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 05:07 AM, said:

Ok, I will. I have run a 2 gauss, 1 ppc night gyr just fine.
The fact of the matter, is if that is the case then clarify it. The quirk says IS ERPPC HSL when the mech has two energy hardpoints. good lord.

ER PPC shot giving 'Mech 25% heat bar.
ER PPC combined with dual GR giving 'Mech 70% heat bar.

Your "just fine" statement is clearly not a "fact of the matter".

'Mech have this quirk so you can run it with dual GR and single ER PPC, achieveing a simple, yet powerful PPFLD with similar projectile speed.
The same way as Bounty Hunter supposed to run dual ER PPC and single GR.

Just because you have a desperate need to boat weapons dosn't mean that quirk is misplaced.

[Jackal Noble]

Clearly you have a need to be proven right. You are correct in regard to the ER PPC HSL applying to the twin gauss + PPC combo. I just tested it out.

My point still stands. For a player not familiar with the mechanics of this game, it is obtuse and unclear as to what " IS ER PPC HSL" means, especially in this quite unique case where the mech only has 2 energy points.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 09 July 2020 - 05:50 AM.

[Brauer]

Jackal Noble, on 09 July 2020 - 05:07 AM, said:

If indeed that is the case, perhaps it should be more clear. Was looking at the mech's base quirks and found them to be quite obtuse.

TBF a lot of things in this game could be made more clear. It's a fair question to wonder why this quirk is applied, but I do think it makes sense if you want to make this build more viable because Gauss and PPCs share a ghost heat group, so if gauss or peeps get a HSL quirk it means you can fire one more of those weapons in total without ghost heat. You might be able to tank that ghost heat on some builds with success, but this quirk would enable much greater sustain and DPS.

That doesn't make the 1xERPPC 2xGR build on this particularly good, but the HSL quirk is potentially quite helpful.

[Jackal Noble]

Further, one can run a single gauss and 2 erppcs plus other ballistics if they so wish. A seriously odd quirk, especially in lieu of the previous gauss/ppc combos of past.

[Thorn Hallis]

The stealth armor cooldown is indeed pretty useless.