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Psr Tier Metrics - Round 1


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#621 D V Devnull

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 11:29 AM

View PostTubbyToast, on 10 September 2020 - 10:42 PM, said:

: tier5 kingcarb dies after 10sec´s in combat

That's why we don't want to put 'Tier 5's against 'Tier 1's in any given Match played. That would definitely be bad, and is something that I can agree on our needing to avoid. ;)


View PostHorseman, on 10 September 2020 - 11:11 PM, said:

Yeah, player ability trumps raw tonnage. There's a few statistical analyses of comp tournaments that show all classes performing relatively close.

And I would bet Everyone & Their Mechs were all 'Tier 1' in the analysis, right? But I'll also bet the Team Compositions were also relatively balanced in Tonnage too. :huh:


So... (and pardon my getting into long sentences here) ... What we ultimately have to get PGI's Paul Inouye to help us achieve is a MatchMaking System that manages to reasonably balance BOTH any given Player's PSR value AND the Total Team Tonnage in any given Match that gets made & played, otherwise we're looking at continuing to have the unwanted stomp-type Matches happening which ruin the overall gameplay experience. Now please note (and keep in mind that I'm really not trying to go around attacking anyone here) that I'm just looking for "reasonably" and most certainly NOT ever aiming for "perfect" as the final goal, as I do think that it's possible for us to do better than what we have now, but absolutely don't have to take it to some crazy extreme point. Maybe I'm being way too damned optimistic, but I just want to see us all make it to there, instead of letting MWO end up dying and disappearing. :o


~Mr. D. V. "simply trying to make the MatchMaker better, and put the wrongful stomp situations to an end" Devnull

#622 Damnedtroll

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Posted 28 September 2020 - 03:58 PM

View Postmartian, on 05 September 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

Probably not. The number of players playing this game is so low that sooner or later the matchmaker will have to open all or almost all Tier valves to assemble a game.


I would love to see Melee attacks in MWO, but this is not going to happen. PGI said that a long time ago. Sorry.


If you want the Hatchetman, either play the real BattleTech, MegaMek or the HBS BattleTech:


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#623 7 SINS

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 08:43 AM

The fact that we have a tier system at all is a luxury players of many other games do not. It definitely works better than before. Kudo's to PGI for making the change. Cadet PSR is straight busted.

I introduced the neighbor kid to the game last week after he had showed interest. It's great to see a new generation appreciate the game we all already do. I set him up an account, put him through the training, and he dropped his first match last night. One thing became crystal clear to me; we must put new players in the lowest tier. It is hard for me to imagine him maintaining an interest in the game getting wrecked like that every game until he drops in PSR enough. I've seen the little dude play other games. He can beat me in just about everything else. I know he would pick it up in time, I just doubt he will play long enough when matches are that overwhelming right now.

#624 RRAMIREZ

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 09:13 AM

View Post7 SINS, on 08 October 2020 - 08:43 AM, said:

One thing became crystal clear to me; we must put new players in the lowest tier.

That's for sure
True cadets cannot be put against T1

#625 Spare Knight

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 04:27 AM

I get put into matches against Tier 1 players all the time. I have kind of gotten used to the beatings.

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it. They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.

#626 Horseman

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 04:49 AM

View PostSpare Knight, on 13 October 2020 - 04:27 AM, said:

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it. They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.
Depending on the pilot you ask.
If you ask me? Getting put up against weaker opposition is equally demeaning to both sides. Neither of you signed up to fight opponents with this much of a skill gap, and it's not like you're given options beyond "fight through" and "throw the fight" (the latter of which isn't really a choice).

Edited by Horseman, 13 October 2020 - 04:50 AM.


#627 selfish shellfish

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 06:04 AM

View PostSpare Knight, on 13 October 2020 - 04:27 AM, said:

I get put into matches against Tier 1 players all the time. I have kind of gotten used to the beatings.

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it. They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.


There is really nothing a low or high tier player can do about it if they are poorly matched. You just get it over with as Horseman points out.

However one must also keep in mind that it's easy to get into the mentality that every time you are beaten it's because of a poor match maker. It's difficult to be objective but often the teams can be well matched but a cascade effect happens where the other team simply collapses. This happens in the competitive games also.

Playing some Solaris matches is a great way to teach the skill difference between two players without the distraction of other players. It's quite difficult to believe at first how good another player can be compared to you. But in a similar manner you can be fighting a player that is clearly of lower skill. Add to that the difference in weapon loadouts and tactics and you begin to realize just how difficult it can be to find that "perfect match".

#628 crazytimes

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 01:01 AM

View PostSpare Knight, on 13 October 2020 - 04:27 AM, said:

I get put into matches against Tier 1 players all the time. I have kind of gotten used to the beatings.

3 tier spread. You don't get put into tier 1 matches.

Quote

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it.
It's not great seeing cadets. I feel sad for them. It's absolutely not my fault that there aren't enough people playing to get less than a 3 tier spread though.

Tonight there were literally few enough people playing in 1 that MM couldn't form 2 matches at a time. If you missed the 1 match going, you had to wait for it to finish and people to queue up for the next one. Yay.


Quote

They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.

Again, it isn't tier 1 players fault that they see matches with 3. Don't play victim. Maybe spend some time spectating and learning.

#629 technopredator

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 04:05 AM

This PSR sucks: Depends heavily on
1) the number of 'mechs I shoot and
2) how much I moved on the map

not on the very things that matter the most:

1) how much damage I made
2) how I defended my teammates sharing damage or
3) AMS/ECM coverage

Some times I make a lot of damage to 3 'mechs ~300-500+ I might even kill 1-2, don't move much on the map, because of a stump attempt and I died, so the stupid match score maker (MSM) tells me my Tier goes down, even when my team wins.

The current Evaluator fails to see how much my team benefits from my contribution and the heavy damage of practically me in numerical disadvantage against 3 enemy 'mechs, yet I made great damage or kills helping the victory or even to lose in less crushing way. This Evaluator only takes into account offensive tactics, like spotting, moving a lot, hitting 'mechs even with little damage, that contribute little to the actual victory.

An example: if a Light spots all 12 of them, launches UAV, so what? the UAV can be and it isshot down rather quickly, and if the rival team has 2 ECM 'mechs, they can easily flank around and made a surprise attack and kill a few, weakening severely my team and getting stumped. The Opposite is damage to enemy 'mechs, that' weakens the attacking squad and will have to compensate for the weakened 'mech that will fire a lot less frequent and always under cover, or on frank push, will die soon enough. I hope you correct this mistake, pretty sure puts off a lot of players and it's unfair.

BTW 2 days ago ended the 3 months trial period assigned to this sucky PSR test

#630 Timber Ghost

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 05:17 AM

View Posttechnopredator, on 17 October 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

This PSR sucks: Depends heavily on
1) the number of 'mechs I shoot and
2) how much I moved on the map

not on the very things that matter the most:

1) how much damage I made
2) how I defended my teammates sharing damage or
3) AMS/ECM coverage

Some times I make a lot of damage to 3 'mechs ~300-500+ I might even kill 1-2, don't move much on the map, because of a stump attempt and I died, so the stupid match score maker (MSM) tells me my Tier goes down, even when my team wins.

The current Evaluator fails to see how much my team benefits from my contribution and the heavy damage of practically me in numerical disadvantage against 3 enemy 'mechs, yet I made great damage or kills helping the victory or even to lose in less crushing way. This Evaluator only takes into account offensive tactics, like spotting, moving a lot, hitting 'mechs even with little damage, that contribute little to the actual victory.

An example: if a Light spots all 12 of them, launches UAV, so what? the UAV can be and it isshot down rather quickly, and if the rival team has 2 ECM 'mechs, they can easily flank around and made a surprise attack and kill a few, weakening severely my team and getting stumped. The Opposite is damage to enemy 'mechs, that' weakens the attacking squad and will have to compensate for the weakened 'mech that will fire a lot less frequent and always under cover, or on frank push, will die soon enough. I hope you correct this mistake, pretty sure puts off a lot of players and it's unfair.

BTW 2 days ago ended the 3 months trial period assigned to this sucky PSR test


This does not even make any sense. It has nothing to do with how many mechs you shoot, or how much you move. Rather, it is how much you help your team mates. Sure, if you stand in one spot and deal out damage, but fail to help your teammates out you will have a poor match score, and your PSR will drop. But on the other hand, if you spot targets, destroy missiles, flank, kill mechs, deal damage, and do all aspects of what makes a good team players, your match score will be high, and your PSR will rise. When you finish a match, and you are looking at the "Mission Summary" screen, look at that center column, the "Match performance" and you will see what it takes to raise your match score. scouting, flanking, damage, missile destroyed, all of that helps your match score. Lance in formation, hit and runs, base capture, all of it. Damage dealt is only a small part of it.

Stop viewing your tier level as an award. It is there to provide better matches, not provide a trophy.

Personally, I like the way it is working. I was a tier 1 pilot for a couple years, but always said I was a tier 3, maybe a tier 2 pilot at best. Average player, maybe a little better than average, but not tier 1 material. This new system has me bouncing between 3 and 2. And I surely know the difference between 3 and 2, as I can see it in the match play. In tier 3, I get matches fairly quick, and I usually have good matches. But when I hit tier 2, I have to wait longer, usually much longer to find a match. I am usually paired up with tier 2, and 1 players, and my final score usually reflects that, lol. You make a wrong move, and you will get focused down, right now. Teamwork wins matches at that level. I saw someone say as a tier 4 they get matched up with tier 1 players all the time. As tier 3, it is rare I see tier 1 players, it does happen, but not very often, and it usually shows when I have a longer wait time to find a match.

#631 crazytimes

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:35 PM

View Posttechnopredator, on 17 October 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

This PSR sucks: Depends heavily on

Some times I make a lot of damage to 3 'mechs ~300-500+ I might even kill 1-2,


You on average kill a mech about once every 3 games. Makes sense that you aren't going up on all the games you aren't contributing much damage or kills.

Quote

BTW 2 days ago ended the 3 months trial period assigned to this sucky PSR test


PSR calculations are fine. It's the MM that needs some love... and the main problem there is that there aren't enough people to effectively make any kind of MM work.

The PSR is still upwards weighted. If you're tier 5, it's because that is the skill level you need to be matched with for you to be having fun playing. It isn't punishment.

Edited by crazytimes, 17 October 2020 - 11:36 PM.


#632 Sawk

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 02:40 PM

well its time
i disagree with the fact that is TEIR thing is on a upward trend, it is not. for me with a rising match score, kills, and damage, i have not moved, hardly at all above where it stopped, after the PSR reset, i am still at 3/4 the way up in tier 4.
maybe its the fact that i have long history, of being at 170 match score since this TIER thing started, or you silly folks really have no clue, not sure which.
i have ask a few folks ---most have no clue what i am talking about,--- so i guess you win in the fact that no cares, i would like to here some honest answers, to what your seeing, are you moving up or just stuck,---- i do have MANY matchs above 250, and some are in the 500+ range, what you would expect from someone of 17000 drops, but i also have some where i have all low end tier 5 guys you know what use to call pugs, and now i call my piers, that get less then 100 match score,
i have noticed i am getting some drops, that are pretty even in guys that team and shoot well, and i am starting to be target 1 again, if your 1 of them you better bring a buddy.

Sawk

#633 crazytimes

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 10:54 PM

View PostSawk, on 18 October 2020 - 02:40 PM, said:

well its time
i disagree with the fact that is TEIR thing is on a upward trend, it is not. for me with a rising match score, kills, and damage, i have not moved, hardly at all above where it stopped, after the PSR reset, i am still at 3/4 the way up in tier 4.


It is. Source- me. I'm a solid 75th percentile player, but maxed out the tier bar a while back. I am definitely not an elite player. I haven't broken even on W/L and K/D overall. No MS farming, mostly MPL/UAC10 builds, with a bit of SRM and MRM fun. It is better than it was, but it is still upwards weighted. You're kidding yourself if you think it isn't.

Quote

i do have MANY matchs above 250, and some are in the 500+ range, what you would expect from someone of 17000 drops, but i also have some where i have all low end tier 5 guys you know what use to call pugs, and now i call my piers, that get less then 100 match score,
If you're averaging 170, but regularly getting 500s... yeah that's not how maths works.

Tier isn't an achievement. You're not being punished. You're just being put with people that play at your skill level. Complain about the MM that prevents you from playing with people better than you... and that is just because there isn't enough people playing to restrict the tier spread.

If you really care about tier, then seek help at getting better.

#634 Horseman

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 12:40 AM

View Postcrazytimes, on 19 October 2020 - 10:54 PM, said:

It is. Source- me. I'm a solid 75th percentile player, but maxed out the tier bar a while back. I am definitely not an elite player. I haven't broken even on W/L and K/D overall. No MS farming, mostly MPL/UAC10 builds, with a bit of SRM and MRM fun. It is better than it was, but it is still upwards weighted. You're kidding yourself if you think it isn't.
Probably because of the relaxed tier separation driving down the team averages. Tightening it back to 2 tiers might help, but would drive up the matchmaking times...

#635 RRAMIREZ

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 01:59 AM

View Postcrazytimes, on 19 October 2020 - 10:54 PM, said:

It is. Source- me. I'm a solid 75th percentile player, but maxed out the tier bar a while back. I am definitely not an elite player. I haven't broken even on W/L and K/D overall. No MS farming, mostly MPL/UAC10 builds, with a bit of SRM and MRM fun. It is better than it was, but it is still upwards weighted.

I'm on the same kind of profile and poped T1 las week (not for long, but still) even if I'm playing really not meta and half skilled mechs
Now I'm almost stationnairy at the top of T2 with avg match score of 240 round about (quite lower than previous seasons).

Not sure if it's an upward biais or "lower skill" population than previous season though... but I don't feel that it's the way it should be.

ps: this thread just to give an other "case", not to point finger to anyone

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 20 October 2020 - 02:00 AM.


#636 selfish shellfish

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 06:14 AM

It looks to me that the treshold is around 240-250 average match score to advance into Tier 2 and 1.
At ~230 you stay in Tier 3 and lower than that you go towards Tier 4-5.

#637 Cluster Fox

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 06:35 AM

selfish selfish, there is no threshold. You're compared against your team so if you're a near-average player you will move very slowly. The average MS is around 230 so your impression is right.
Below this you will drift more or less quickly to 0 PSR, Above that you will drift towards 5000 PSR.

As for other comments on this page:

The MM and PSR walk hand in hand, you can't say one is fine and the other is not since MM needs PSR to balance a match.
You might have a "feeling" PSR is ok because of the up down arrows making you happy but it's rewarding anti-teamplay behavior right now.

It's no secret you can get your PSR upwards by doing two things in the current model :
- Stay alive longer than your teammates
- Do as much damage as you can, regardless if that damage has an effect (kills) or just sandblasts armor for the whole game.

This is because MS is heavily biased towards damage and PSR is heavily biased towards MS.

The most urgent problem right now is new players starting at Tier 3.
Then it's the PSR / MM calculations and how they interact.

Edited by Cluster Fox, 20 October 2020 - 06:35 AM.


#638 Sawk

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 03:51 PM

well thats some better honest answers, oh and by the way my average match score is 239 right now, and thats because i been having some, disconnect props, not really good for match scores, and i been seeing some old buddys in lights, and there really good at it, and they bring friends.
And to crazytimes you seem to want to teach me, i'll show you mine if you show me yours, to be honest i been running the worst mech in the game the last few months, a timber wolf, only a few other mechs, and running solo, no teamspeak or discord,
for the solo players they will need the kickers turned on, or any new guys they may never see the higher levels of play in this game, as far as i can tell you need to have 25, games in a row above 250, that a tall order for 80% of the folks playing this game. and for me at least, that only moves the bar a little.
i can keep moving the match score up, i have the builds, and probally find some voice, around XMAS, and maybe by then mister KATZ can look in to it

Sawk

#639 Sawk

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 05:35 PM

ok time to ask a question,
So i seem to stable in tier 4, last few months averaging around a 225 each season, and i am not the quiet guys, and am starting to hear some pilots say there tier 1, or 3, oddly i have not heard of any tier 2 guys.
the question is did the PSR reset and new math really do its JOB, from my point of view its just bigger headache for me, and made some feel like superman, because they got that TITLE.
What really upset me was i now seeing, folks finding and targeting me, short of guys told should agree to talk and play as a team and killed them for disagreeing, ok its the Clanner in me.
The system is BROKEN, the old system was better, maybe the new system needs some adjustment, i think i get placed with tier 1 folks, because of my match score, not my tier level, and the match maker, how am i ever going to get out tier 4 if i am now starting to play tier 1.
ok that was 2 questions, hmm i do take kindly to folks talking down to anyone.

Sawk

#640 Rosarius

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 07:00 PM

View PostSawk, on 14 November 2020 - 05:35 PM, said:

the question is did the PSR reset and new math really do its JOB


In a sentence... yes., it did its job. Players who performed better in the context of how match score is calculated (and I deliberately worded it this way) quickly floated to T1. Players who didn't perform as well took longer. Players who performed on average stayed around T3. Those below average, T4 and T5.

I think you are matched with T1 players because when you play there aren't enough players in around the same tier level to make up the 24 players needed to launch. The most perfect matchmaker would struggle in this situation.

View PostSawk, on 14 November 2020 - 05:35 PM, said:

how am i ever going to get out of tier 4 if i am now starting to play tier 1


You just need to perform better than most of the players in a match (again, in the context of how match score is calculated). If you're better than average, you'll rank better than average

There are up to three areas that could be worked on:
  • Mech selection and build
  • Mechanical skill (eg, aiming, spreading damage, shielding)
  • Map awareness and stratagem (eg, where enemy is likely to be, strong points to hold, weak points to avoid)
My advice would be to jump onto the MWO Comp discord and start asking your questions there

Edited by Rosarius, 14 November 2020 - 07:00 PM.






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