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Pgi's Income Myth


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#1 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 04:16 PM

So here's something that keeps cropping up from tin foil hat wearing MechDads. Usually they something along the lines of; "We pay the bills, comp players don't. Don't listen to comp players, listen to us, we're paying customers."

Can anyone tell me where this goofy thinking came from? Do I really need to deconstruct this fallacy?

I think the vast majority of people who have more brain power than a box of tissue paper can tell you that it's pretty stupid.

My small rant over.

#2 Monkey Lover

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 04:35 PM

Well if we want to use this logic, my understanding new players pay the bill so we shouldn't listen to both lol

#3 DaZur

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 06:52 PM

Does it really matter who pays the bills?

I know day-1 veterans who haven't invested one-red-cent and still play to this day and I've listened/read new players regale over the amount of cash they've dump into the game...

Reality is if PGI doesn't get off their *** and do something to attract more new players and to bring back old, there will be no MWO for comps or newbies to play.

#4 frumpylumps

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 07:14 PM

I'll take a stab at it. By "MechDads" i assume this is older guys we are talking about. These guys are of the idea that they have more expendable income than comp players, who tend to be younger, and by that logic assuming they pay a larger share of PGIs income than comp players, which might be true.

#5 Nightbird

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 07:33 PM

Comp in general represents a small portion of the population (even if you add up every team in every event it's less than 10% of the monthly pop), so that more than anything like age or income drives claims of who supports PGI. In the end though, PGI should expend some proportionate effort towards all the major groups, be in comp, new players, mech dads, etc to succeed.

#6 martian

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 09:26 PM

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 17 October 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

So here's something that keeps cropping up from tin foil hat wearing MechDads. Usually they something along the lines of; "We pay the bills, comp players don't. Don't listen to comp players, listen to us, we're paying customers."


Could you post some links showing examples of such thinking, please?

I would like to read it for myself.

#7 Thorqemada

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 03:32 AM

If Comp Players finance PGI is dependent on the definition what a Comp Player is.

From what PGI said - that the Money spend per paying Player is said to be rather high i would guess that "Whales" big and small financed the game and that new Whales are needed.

And imo the Comp Scene is that small it is impossible to have a game run on that small pool finacially viable!

Why do you think they allways ask you to baf in?

#8 Willard Phule

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 04:28 AM

View Postmartian, on 17 October 2020 - 09:26 PM, said:


Could you post some links showing examples of such thinking, please?

I would like to read it for myself.


And no ******** anecdotes, either. Proof needs to be confirmed by a reliable source like Snopes or FaceBook fact checkers.

#9 Bud Crue

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 04:37 AM

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 17 October 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:


Can anyone tell me where this goofy thinking came from? Do I really need to deconstruct this fallacy?



TLDR: Years of repetition.

I'd say it started with the more vocal group of lore nerd/nostalgic founders who paid significant sums for their dream of a lore intensive community warfare mode.

Many of the founders fall into the category, though certainly not all. But these folks spent a lot of money and many were very vocal about it. Some (though again, not all) felt entitled to being provided a game mode where they could thrive without getting stomped by those of superior skill. They thought/hoped CW was that mode. But when it became clear that the more competitive ("competitive" being used here to indicate people who were selective in their unit formations so as to be competitive (i.e. play to win, period), rather than necessarily the "comp" folks of today, though many members of today's "comp" scene were also part of the original competitive CW community, and perhaps some still are) units could, via skill and team work, dominate these nostalgic big spenders, many of these folks demanded that PGI make changes to the CW mode to make it more in keeping with their hoped for utopia of a lore intensive happy place, rather than just another mode where better players running better builds could consistently beat them.

This often resulted in forum warrioring wherein the CW casuals/lore nerds would demand changes (though it was never articulated just what changes they thought would make the mode more friendly to incompetent or merely "casual" play) because they "paid for the game", "made the game possible", "funded the game", etc. While occasionally a competitive player would note that they too were a Founder, more often than not the arguments ended up being dominated by a few Founder lore nerds, against a few competitive folks who were often just trolling them. Sometimes during these arguments inevitably the assertion of "it's people like me who keep this game running", or the like would be put forward almost exclusively by someone on the Founder/lore nerd/casual camp. This would devolve into an...shall we say, an organ measuring contest, of who spends more and who PGI listens to, which would then end up with a nice segue into the various ills of the game and who is to blame for it.

Now then, with every iteration of CW, the argument would start over (though as time went on it became less Founders vs Competitive, and more Casuals vs. Competitive or Teams vs. Solos; and occasionally Competitive vs "people who refuse to try to get better"), and every time there were those who would throw out the argument that they spend a lot and as such their voice should be heard. And though the most effective response to this has always been to point out that MWO has always been a competitive PvP game and how much you spend is not going to change that. The whole "I spend a lot" aspect is repeated and left mostly unaddressed, because frankly, no one cares; and yet the message is repeated over and over.

Fast forward to today, and the bleed through to soup queue, and we have years of argument with a lot of very vocal people on one side saying how much they spend and why; with the other side typically responding with one form or another of "git gud". Thus, the idea of the casuals (Mechdads, etc.) are the folks that pay for the game has become somewhat accepted because it hasn't been refuted, but rather merely ignored, because even if it's true, it's irrelevant.

#10 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 05:38 AM

I almost feel like when I see it, they're trying to imply it's a P2W system.

I don't have links to anything, just a screenshot, something I saw a few times in the discussion that was hosted earlier, and I believe some goofy facebook post. (I obviously don't want to link something off of facebook or the person in general). You'll just have to take my word for it.

Point being...We've all spent money on this game. Implying that someone has spent more and therefor more entitled is silly. No. Go drink a bottle of cement.

#11 Kodyn

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:02 AM

In any game where the devs talk to a subset of the community for advice, there's going to be discord and bitterness in the community. Happened in EVE Online as well...they have a player council, made up of largely the last group of players the player-base would want to see influencing things, so everyone else is fairly screwed.

Here we have the "secret" Squirrels and comp guys. I know enough of both groups to know they're a mixed bag- some comp players are truly asses and don't have any idea about what would be good for the game overall. Some are really in tune with what the majority want to see. Squirrels are all over the place in game ability, unlike the comp players, so there's probably some more common views here as well.

In the end, MWO is sadly too much like the US. We all have a very different idea of how we want to play MWO, what we want MWO to be, what we'll pay to see change. We've all watched any and all dreams and/or hope for this game get squashed repeatedly by PGI, we've all seen how incredibly stupid the majority of the actual player-base is. We have little to no hope in either PGI or each other, and it's a lot easier to hate each other than try to find common ground after all this time.

#12 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:10 AM

Holy ******* ****. STOP. COMPARING. A VIDEOGAME. COMPANY/COMMUNITY/WHATEVER. TO. A. COUNTRY!

They're not similar.

In any way shape or form. Stop it. One's a literal country. The other is a collection of nerds and a company based in Canada. There's no similarity. Nothing to be drawn. Just...******* stop.

#13 martian

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:28 AM

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 05:38 AM, said:

I don't have links to anything, just a screenshot, something I saw a few times in the discussion that was hosted earlier, and I believe some goofy facebook post. (I obviously don't want to link something off of facebook or the person in general). You'll just have to take my word for it.

So you are saying that "here's something that keeps cropping up", but you can't post anything ...

Surely you can link to other posts on this forum - this is allowed.


You are talking about "tin foil hat wearing MechDads", but you know nothing about MWO users except their forum nicknames.


In this moments it seems to me that you are presenting us a textbook example of a Straw Man fallacy: You are putting words into somebody's mouth without even showing us any proofs that those supposed people have ever said that or that they even exist.

Then you are refuting that "argument" with your simple statements that it is a "goofy thinking" and "this fallacy".

I would classify your last sentence "I think the vast majority of people who have more brain power than a box of tissue paper can tell you that it's pretty stupid." as an Appeal to majority (Pretending that many people would agree with you).

#14 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 06:28 AM, said:

I doubt your word

Didn't bother reading the whole thing but I'll meet you halfway.

Timestamp not provided: It was something I saw in the discussion that was streamed, quoted on a discord channel for us to make fun of.

Quote

StewBurner: ppc/gauss removal was singularly best move that PGI has made for retention. Yes it made the top tier mad, but the top tier is not paying the bills. They are just the most vocal. We will loose people if it is brought back. We need more content right now. Maps and game modes are more important in the short term, quirks and the like are almost irrelevant to the new player. The new player wants content, content, content. They get tired of the same maps over and over.


Screenshotted by another user, not sure where. Here you go.

Posted Image

I'm not linking, quoting, screenshotting anything off of Facebook.

Edit: Against better judgement, I read your post.

MWO forum user nicknames are usually tied to the same player in game. Even then, if people are making other accounts to simply voice a bad opinion, that'd be both hilarious and sad. If you used that same argument for twitch, sure, I'd understand...But...

Posted Image

Quote

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making. Person 1: I think pollution from humans contributes to climate change.


I'm attacking a goofy notion. I'm not exaggerating it, blowing it out of proportion, nor am I making their point any less valid than it is. Because it isn't. It's not a strawman. Go back to English.

The argument is a fallacy. prove to me otherwise it isn't. Prove to me that everyone else individually has paid more than the individual comp player.

I did the research for you: You can't.

Edited by DrtyDshSoap, 18 October 2020 - 07:06 AM.


#15 BlaizerP

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:37 AM

I've seen that line on FB, twitch, and MWO discord just in the last day or two. Whales of all skill levels exist.

#16 VonBruinwald

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:41 AM

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:10 AM, said:

Holy ******* ****. STOP. COMPARING. A VIDEOGAME. COMPANY/COMMUNITY/WHATEVER. TO. A. COUNTRY!

They're not similar.


Both are made up of a population comprised of people with loyalist and dissident views.

However this is nothing like the US, here it is a dictatorship where PGI have near absolute authority over matters and can freely give you the boot for critiscism and contention with the powers that be.

#17 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 06:58 AM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 18 October 2020 - 06:41 AM, said:

Both are made up of a population comprised of people with loyalist and dissident views.

However this is nothing like the US, here it is a dictatorship where PGI have near absolute authority over matters and can freely give you the boot for critiscism and contention with the powers that be.

Gee, makes you think that it's a privately owned company and not a governmental body. Who knew?

Not that I'm defending PGI, but let's not compare apples to oranges...

#18 martian

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

Didn't bother reading the whole thing but I'll meet you halfway.

Timestamp not provided: It was something I saw in the discussion that was streamed, quoted on a discord channel for us to make fun of.

Quote

StewBurner: ppc/gauss removal was singularly best move that PGI has made for retention. Yes it made the top tier mad, but the top tier is not paying the bills. They are just the most vocal. We will loose people if it is brought back. We need more content right now. Maps and game modes are more important in the short term, quirks and the like are almost irrelevant to the new player. The new player wants content, content, content. They get tired of the same maps over and over.


So this is one undated post that could have been written by virtually anyone. It's not even from this forum, if I understand you correctly.

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

Screenshotted by another user, not sure where. Here you go.

Posted Image

Three and a half years old post. Do you have something newer, please? And even there you can not know how much "Ted Wayz" has spent on MWO. It's possible that he really spent more than some competetive players. Without checking his accounts and accounts of some competetive players, nobody can say.

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

I'm not linking, quoting, screenshotting anything off of Facebook.

Your choice.

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

Edit: Against better judgement, I read your post.

MWO forum user nicknames are usually tied to the same player in game. Even then, if people are making other accounts to simply voice a bad opinion, that'd be both hilarious and sad. If you used that same argument for twitch, sure, I'd understand...But...

Posted Image

But creating secondary accounts on this forum is possible.

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

I'm attacking a goofy notion. I'm not exaggerating it, blowing it out of proportion, nor am I making their point any less valid than it is. Because it isn't. It's not a strawman. Go back to English.

So far you have shown me one undated "post" and one three years old forum post.

View PostDrtyDshSoap, on 18 October 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

The argument is a fallacy. prove me to me otherwise it isn't. Prove to me that everyone else individually has paid more than a comp player.

I did the research for you: You can't.

If you say something in discussion, then it is your job to offer proofs that support your claims.

This is how discussions work.

It's not your opponent's duty to fulfil your impossible and unrealizable conditions.

Edited by martian, 18 October 2020 - 07:34 AM.


#19 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:42 AM

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

So this is one undated post that could have been written by virtually anyone. It's not even from this forum, if I understand you correctly.

Read it again my guy. The discussion that was broadcasted and telegraphed for over a week occurred less than 24 hours ago. You can find it if you just L-O-O-K.

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

Three and a half years old post. Do you have something newer, please?

I don't browse the forum each and every waking moment nor do I pay super close attention to every little detail. That cropped up on my "lolwutanidiot" scroll. Same thing happened with above. Only noticed that little quote of his because he highlighted it like a derp.

Either you can take my word for it or not

Your choice.
Pretty simple choice really. You do or you don't. I don't care which frankly.


View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

But creating secondary accounts on this forum is possible.

Gee really? You think that's why I said it'd be pretty hilarious and sad if they did to just voice an opinion? Nice observation, genius.

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

If you say something in discussion, then it is your job to offer proofs that support your claims.

What is this? A court of law? It's a general discussion and an observation I made. Lol. See above, I'm not putting any more effort into it than I already have.

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

This is how discussions work.

You've only said you were dubious to what has been said in the past. That's it. You're not contributing to anything.
Posted Image

Just accept it, you're not winning this argument my guy.

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

It's not your opponent's duty to fulfil your impossible and unrealizable conditions.

Are you my opponent or are you just trying to derail a thread? Go away.

#20 DrtyDshSoap

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 07:47 AM

View Postmartian, on 18 October 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

I don't believe you.

GOOD! GREAT! That saved us the trouble of arguing about nothing. NEXT!





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