50 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I was playing MW4 Mercs, and I gotta say, I liked the MG Arrays. They are waaaay more useful than what we have in MWO, in MW4 Mercs they have the range of 400m which even triumphs the standard 300m Medium Laser and the ER Small Laser, and then ballpark of the ER Meds. Contrast MWO's MG selection, and they are weak -- understandably so because they are lightweight.

But therein lies the problem, powerful as they are with their weight, they don't weigh that much and isn't really as powerful and useful, not unless massed. Sure you can cite the MG Boats all day by virtue of Min-Maxing, but they aren't useful as backup weapons like the Medium and the Small Lasers could be.

There is also the issue of range compounded by spread. Even if you double current MG range right now, they are still aren't that useful beyond their current effective range mainly because you focus the damage better at close range. Even the LB2Xs and the LB5Xs has this problem.

Admittedly we can't just buff MGs, the MG Boats like the Piranha, the Mist Lynx, and the Javelin would be incredibly be broken.

Here is my solution:

- Increase MG Range
- Introduce MG Arrays
- Make single MGs pinpoint, vs MG-Arrays spread
- Curtail the MG-Boats by reducing hardpoints and make them use MG Arrays.

The MG-Arrays would be useful for mechs that are ballistic-hardpoint starved. The Single MGs are contrasted from MG Arrays by virtue of being pinpoint. Now you can use two MG-Arrays on something like the Pirate's Bane that functions like it has 6 MGs, or 4 MG Arrays on a basic 1V locust, to make it function like it has 12 MGs.

Even though MGs are a bit more longer range, like 400m to LMG, 270m for MG, and 150m for HMG, only the single MGs can make use of this, as the spread of the MG-Arrays will still shorten their effective range.

Because the Single-MGs have a lot more range, they are now good contrast to Small and Medium Lasers as backup weapons.

To balance out the MG Array offering, the MG Boats would instead have less hardpoints and reliant on MG Arrays. Like the Piranha from 12, down to just 4, which would consist of 4 MG Arrays of same potency as 12 MGs.

What do you think?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 November 2020 - 09:07 PM.

[JediPanther]

Don't think they are needed. If you want some thing like your arrays just look for mechs with an mg rof quirk. You'd be surprised how many and what ton have them like that bsw hero. Only a few mechs that can min-max can really make mgs worth having and even then are are usually ammo starved by end of match.

[The6thMessenger]

JediPanther, on 20 November 2020 - 08:29 PM, said:

Don't think they are needed. If you want some thing like your arrays just look for mechs with an mg rof quirk. You'd be surprised how many and what ton have them like that bsw hero. Only a few mechs that can min-max can really make mgs worth having and even then are are usually ammo starved by end of match.

The point was MGs to be useful for other mechs than just the MG Boats, or those with Quirks.

[JediPanther]

The6thMessenger, on 20 November 2020 - 08:31 PM, said:

The point was MGs to be useful for other mechs than just the MG Boats, or those with Quirks.

I'm up late for me. One array is equal to 3 mgs using your lct-1v to get 12. How are you going to figure out which mechs get single mg vs array? Some mechs like the lcts or cptl-k2 only have two slots for mgs while some like sdr-5k have four slots. Maybe an option to make it an upgrade al la armor type but between the two mg types for x amount of c-bills. Are you going to limit them as an option to only meds and lights or see mechs like the jag arrow rock six mg arrays?

[The6thMessenger]

JediPanther, on 20 November 2020 - 08:39 PM, said:

I'm up late for me. One array is equal to 3 mgs using your lct-1v to get 12. How are you going to figure out which mechs get single mg vs array? Some mechs like the lcts or cptl-k2 only have two slots for mgs while some like sdr-5k have four slots. Maybe an option to make it an upgrade al la armor type but between the two mg types for x amount of c-bills. Are you going to limit them as an option to only meds and lights or see mechs like the jag arrow rock six mg arrays?

Performance-Based. Right now Piranha and Mist-Lynx are the powerful MG Boats, runnerup are the Javelin and Flea. Artemis-Like Upgrade for MGs could work, but in my mind, it's merely a new set of tech.

Granted, that would mean that something like the locust 1V could have as much MGs as Piranha. This will also make leg-chompers more prolific, and in fact easier since the Locust 1V has it's MGs at the more-responsive arms. There is no "but" there, it's nice that other lights would at least compete toe-to-toe with Piranha.

The setup could possibly be the MG Array, though has 3x MG, is only really powerful by 2.5x, and just quirk the Piranha out by 20% MG ROF. This will also have the bonus of making the 4x single-MGs a bit more powerful to the Piranha that makes it a good alternative, to a 4x MG-Array.

I am not that worried about MG hardpoint differences with Heavier mechs, they are more effective with other ballistic offerings anyways, they just need to have a decent choice for MG. For the lighter mechs, MGs are the ONLY ballistic choices that would work.

If MG Array is limited to Meds and Lights, it defeats the purpose just as well. Heavies and Assaults should be able to use MG Array as well, at least for backup if anything.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 November 2020 - 08:59 PM.

[LordNothing]

im all for more weapons. game needs ballistics in the 2-5 ton range (1-4 ton clan). there are lots of lasers and missiles in that range but no ballistics. short of lacs, pacs, medium rifle, and yes mg arrays.

i think id lean the mg arrays more towards armor damage than crit damage.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 November 2020 - 09:33 PM.

[Kroete]

KingCrab with some mrms, some lasers and 18 heatless dps from the 6 arrays?
Or the direwolf with 24 heatless dps on 8 arrays, not really viable but fun i think.

MGs should have ghostheat, arrays need ghostheat ...

Edited by Kroete, 21 November 2020 - 06:47 AM.

[LordNothing]

Kroete, on 21 November 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

KingCrab with some mrms, some lasers and 18 heatless dps from the 6 arrays?
Or the direwolf with 24 heatless dps on 8 arrays, not really viable but fun i think.

MGs should have ghostheat, arrays need ghostheat ...

if were talking an ultraviolet, they can already do 22+ dps with cac2s, but with the benefit of extreme range. at the other end of the spectrum you probably wouldn't have enough tonnage to carry more than 3 or 4. lights that can carry 8+ machine guns are usually ammo starved, and the mg arrays are going to eat ammo like crazy and make that problem worse.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 November 2020 - 07:03 AM.

[Vyx]

Remove MGs entirely. They have no place in a mech game. They were only ever meant to deal with infantry.

If 20 IS LRMs fired within 180m does zero damage to a mech (remember: 20 heavy, rocket-propelled metal tubes longer than you are tall, even with a "dead" warhead), then why should LMG/MG "small arms fire" do anything at all? How many FN FALs does it take to penetrate an armored car? Answer: Trick question -- they can't.

Look at the range of LMGs/MGs. They don't model RAC2s. They model mounted 7.62mm - 50cal weapons. What you want is a mini-RAC2. It's a pipe dream.

Possibly keep HMGs. They halfway make sense. Junk the rest.

Edited by Vyx, 23 November 2020 - 12:04 AM.

[General Solo]

Make machine guns shoot guass rifles at short range
30dps
like before, then people cried and they got nerfed

[Black Caiman]

Vyx, on 22 November 2020 - 11:33 PM, said:

Remove MGs entirely. They have no place in a mech game. They were only ever meant to deal with infantry.

If 20 IS LRMs fired within 180m does zero damage to a mech (remember: 20 heavy, rocket-propelled metal tubes longer than you are tall, even with a "dead" warhead), then why should LMG/MG "small arms fire" do anything at all? How many FN FALs does it take to penetrate an armored car? Answer: Trick question -- they can't.

Look at the range of LMGs/MGs. They don't model RAC2s. They model mounted 7.62mm - 50cal weapons. What you want is a mini-RAC2. It's a pipe dream.

Possibly keep HMGs. They halfway make sense. Junk the rest.

I think the answer is somewhere in between this. MGs should essentially do no damage to armor for the reasons you mentioned, but I they should do extra damage (which they already do through high crit chance) once youve gotten through the armor. Im fine with increased range because a range of ~100m is laughable to for HMGs, but they should do like 1/4 damage to armor. The fact a Piranha with machine guns can rip through the leg on an Atlas in seconds is ridiculous, but if your more heavily armed mechs have stripped the armor off then Im ok with the Piranha running up and critting the Atlas up.

[The6thMessenger]

Vyx, on 22 November 2020 - 11:33 PM, said:

Remove MGs entirely. They have no place in a mech game. They were only ever meant to deal with infantry.

If 20 IS LRMs fired within 180m does zero damage to a mech (remember: 20 heavy, rocket-propelled metal tubes longer than you are tall, even with a "dead" warhead), then why should LMG/MG "small arms fire" do anything at all? How many FN FALs does it take to penetrate an armored car? Answer: Trick question -- they can't.

Look at the range of LMGs/MGs. They don't model RAC2s. They model mounted 7.62mm - 50cal weapons. What you want is a mini-RAC2. It's a pipe dream.

Possibly keep HMGs. They halfway make sense. Junk the rest.

FN Fal penetrating armor depends on ammunition, and how thick the armor is. 308 AP rounds can go through plated armor vest, that is literally a plate of metal sandwiched within layers of kevlar or aramid.

The basic anti-materiel rifle, the 50-BMG for NATO and the 14.5mm for Soviet, Russia, China and other stuff, they can go through lightly-armored vehicles. Sadly NATO used to have the FN BRG project that were to match the 14.5mm by their own 15.5mm FN, but wasn't continued.

The 25mm Autocannon rounds and the 30mm Autocannon rounds have armor-piercing munitions that CAN go through armor, in fact the GAU-8 that is used by the A10 Thunderbolt is known to defeat tanks.

A dead-fired missile that isn't armed simply isn't just built to penetrate on their own, they are meant to explode. They do not have a hard penetrating core, they have a complex system designed to detonate a warhead, on a shell that is only meant to be aerodynamic. Likewise, AP rounds aside from composition always had been favored by small bullets going fast, this is the thought with PDW rounds such as 4.6mm HK and 5.7mm FN. Those LRMs being not APFSDS rounds, aren't just comparable.

As for the Machine-Guns in BattleTech, it could be 50-BMG and 14.5mm that can go through LAVs, upwards 30mm that can go through tanks. Sarna says it's actually between 12.5mm and 20mm, both of which are in the realm of possibility of doing something to armor, especially when you shoot 20 times. It's quite erroneous of you to argue "small arms".

The BT MG wasn't even supposed to be man-portable, but only to a mount called Support Machine-Gun, or would have required a Battle Armor. So far, the only MGs right now that I could think of that couldn't be carried (note carried =/= used) by a single trooper would be basically be something in the lines of a KPV 14.5mm, to an Oerlikon 20mm, Rotary-Cannons such as M61 Vulcan.

But hay, it's just a game in the end. Lights deserve to have their own ballistic weapons, not just stuck on the usual Lasers or SRMs, MG is one way to do it.

Black Caiman, on 23 November 2020 - 05:12 AM, said:

I think the answer is somewhere in between this. MGs should essentially do no damage to armor for the reasons you mentioned, but I they should do extra damage (which they already do through high crit chance) once youve gotten through the armor.

Which they already do by having increased critical damage upon a stripped component.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 November 2020 - 05:45 AM.

[Willard Phule]

I'd still rather see AP Gauss get introduced, then nobody would ***** about MGs anymore.

[VonBruinwald]

The6thMessenger, on 20 November 2020 - 07:27 PM, said:

The MG-Arrays would be useful for mechs that are ballistic-hardpoint starved. The Single MGs are contrasted from MG Arrays by virtue of being pinpoint. Now you can use two MG-Arrays on something like the Pirate's Bane that functions like it has 6 MGs, or 4 MG Arrays on a basic 1V locust, to make it function like it has 12 MGs.

Why not just add machine gun arrays as a new item, same base stats as single machine guns:

• Small machine gun array - 1.5t, 3 slots, 2x ROF
  
• Medium machine-gun array - 2t, 4 slots, 3x ROF
  
• Large machine-gun array - 2.5t, 5 slots, 4x ROF

It makes singles better if you have the hard points to boat them but still allows for other mechs to carry a meaningful amount at the cost of +0.5t +1 slot over the equivalent amount of singles. There's even an argument to be made for giving arrays tighter spread which would help balance the piranhas ability to boat them.

Also comes in light and heavy varieties (heavies weigh 2.5t, 3.5t, 4.5t). And Clan varieties (1t, 1.25t, 1.5t / 1t, 2t, 2.5t)

[Vyx]

The6thMessenger, on 23 November 2020 - 05:25 AM, said:

[words]

Oh, you mean you want a mini-RAC2? I thought I answered that.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

do you compare a 4.25kg gun with a .5t weaponsystem?

[Johny Rocket]

The6thMessenger, on 20 November 2020 - 07:27 PM, said:

I was playing MW4 Mercs, and I gotta say, I liked the MG Arrays. They are waaaay more useful than what we have in MWO, in MW4 Mercs they have the range of 400m which even triumphs the standard 300m Medium Laser and the ER Small Laser, and then ballpark of the ER Meds. Contrast MWO's MG selection, and they are weak -- understandably so because they are lightweight.

But therein lies the problem, powerful as they are with their weight, they don't weigh that much and isn't really as powerful and useful, not unless massed. Sure you can cite the MG Boats all day by virtue of Min-Maxing, but they aren't useful as backup weapons like the Medium and the Small Lasers could be.

There is also the issue of range compounded by spread. Even if you double current MG range right now, they are still aren't that useful beyond their current effective range mainly because you focus the damage better at close range. Even the LB2Xs and the LB5Xs has this problem.

Admittedly we can't just buff MGs, the MG Boats like the Piranha, the Mist Lynx, and the Javelin would be incredibly be broken.

Here is my solution:

- Increase MG Range
- Introduce MG Arrays
- Make single MGs pinpoint, vs MG-Arrays spread
- Curtail the MG-Boats by reducing hardpoints and make them use MG Arrays.

The MG-Arrays would be useful for mechs that are ballistic-hardpoint starved. The Single MGs are contrasted from MG Arrays by virtue of being pinpoint. Now you can use two MG-Arrays on something like the Pirate's Bane that functions like it has 6 MGs, or 4 MG Arrays on a basic 1V locust, to make it function like it has 12 MGs.

Even though MGs are a bit more longer range, like 400m to LMG, 270m for MG, and 150m for HMG, only the single MGs can make use of this, as the spread of the MG-Arrays will still shorten their effective range.

Because the Single-MGs have a lot more range, they are now good contrast to Small and Medium Lasers as backup weapons.

To balance out the MG Array offering, the MG Boats would instead have less hardpoints and reliant on MG Arrays. Like the Piranha from 12, down to just 4, which would consist of 4 MG Arrays of same potency as 12 MGs.

What do you think?

I mean its a game where a computers are measured by tonnage....

[The6thMessenger]

Vyx, on 23 November 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

Oh, you mean you want a mini-RAC2? I thought I answered that.

No, I don't.

Aidan Crenshaw, on 23 November 2020 - 07:11 AM, said:

do you compare a 4.25kg gun with a .5t weaponsystem?

^ This.

It is exactly why your comparison is ********, Vyx.

What you see in the models are basically just single-barrel rapid-fire weapons. They don't need to be miniguns, likewise they don't have to be 50-cal and 7.62mm either.

The 20mm isn't exclusive to the M61 Vulcan, there are different 20mm rounds too such as the 20mm Oerlikon, 20mm Hispano Suiza, 20mm Mauser, 20mm Solothurn, and they can be fired from single-barreled rapid-fire guns called "Chainguns".

VonBruinwald, on 23 November 2020 - 06:38 AM, said:

Why not just add machine gun arrays as a new item, same base stats as single machine guns:

• Small machine gun array - 1.5t, 3 slots, 2x ROF
  
• Medium machine-gun array - 2t, 4 slots, 3x ROF
  
• Large machine-gun array - 2.5t, 5 slots, 4x ROF

It makes singles better if you have the hard points to boat them but still allows for other mechs to carry a meaningful amount at the cost of +0.5t +1 slot over the equivalent amount of singles. There's even an argument to be made for giving arrays tighter spread which would help balance the piranhas ability to boat them.





Also comes in light and heavy varieties (heavies weigh 2.5t, 3.5t, 4.5t). And Clan varieties (1t, 1.25t, 1.5t / 1t, 2t, 2.5t)

I honestly don't care how you achieve it.

Although the slot, well, keeping it single-slotted would make better sense, to help it fit on many places like the torso of a Locust, or a Timber Wolf.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 November 2020 - 06:37 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think its a mistake to compare modern day weapons with bt weapons. 7.62mm and .50 cal guns are mostly anti-personel though have been used as aircraft guns in wwii, they only have to get through sheet metal, and are incendiary so as to ignite fuel tanks. 20mm guns replaced those. you need to get up to the gau-8 which is mostly a ground attack weapon to approach what a bt machine gun can do. just imagine it with a higher caliber and a single barrel, like the german bk-5 and the hmg would be its bigger brother the bk-7,5 (thats a 50mm and 75 mm gun respectively). i think the biggest gun ever flown is the 105mm howitzer on the ac130e, which is probibly equivalent to a light rifle.

[Monkey Lover]

Vyx, on 22 November 2020 - 11:33 PM, said:

Remove MGs entirely. They have no place in a mech game. They were only ever meant to deal with infantry.

I think machine guns should do damage based on the tonnage of the mech you're shooting

so assaults take 5dps
heavy 3dps
medium 1.5dps
lights 0.5 dps


Assaults have had it too easy for to long!